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I've noticed over the last 20 or so years that men in the West, in general, appear increasingly effeminate. I've also noticed that a lot of male pop stars have

I've noticed over the last 20 or so years that men in the West, in general, appear increasingly effeminate. I've also noticed that a lot of male pop stars have really high voices. I've long suspected these observations are more than cultural. Recent studies seem to back this intuition.

ekianjo 9y ago
Is there a direct correlation between sperm count and appearance though? Its probably more relevant to consider testosterone.
ovao 9y ago
Effeminate by what attributes?
- PrimHelios 9y ago
  Western cultural values, I guess. This seems to be a really weird talking point of the right wing (although I'm not saying that it's only the right, or that hyperdunc is right wing), that people have stopped caring about hyper-masculinity, and it must be caused by hormones and not just a change in cultural values.
algesten 9y ago
In the 1700s castratis were quite popular throughout Europe. Does that mean they had low sperm count then, or was it just something people liked? I really don't believe you can explain cultural phenomenon through medical science.
- emersonrsantos 9y ago
  Castrati means literally castrated, normally boys before puberty to retain the soprano/mezzo-soprano pitch on adulthood. This got forbidden in 1870 in Italy and by the Roman church in 1902.
- phamilton 9y ago
  castratis have exceptionally low sperm count
- cperciva 9y ago
  Well, castrati certainly did have low sperm counts...
imron 9y ago
> I've also noticed that a lot of male pop stars have really high voices. Male pop stars had really high voices long before 20 years ago - the BeeGees, the Beach Boys, Freddy Mercury are three off the top of my head. I'm sure I could come up with some more if I thought about it for more than 5 seconds.
- seandoe 9y ago
  Not that the op comment has any basis, but singing falsetto or having vocal range has little to do with the high/low-ness of the baseline voice.
brian-armstrong 9y ago
Is this sort of pseudoscientific anecdata what passes for discourse on HN now? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - where's yours?
- bousaid 9y ago
  Wow, I'm just as dumbfounded as you.
- verroq 9y ago
  The rate of males identifying as gay has been rising either because of the changing culture, and/or something in the water. Such a statement claiming western men as becoming more effeminate is obvious.
  - csydas 9y ago
    Well homosexuality being more accepted I guess would be a cultural change, yes, but that doesn't mean there are more gay men now than there were before, it means there are more men who are openly gay than there were before. It's a bit hard to tell whether there was an actual increase in gay men due to the known fact that many men hid their sexuality prior to it being more acceptable. I think this is a far more sensible and defensible position and a simpler explanation than something in water, unless that was a facetious comment.
- RealityNow 9y ago
  Just because he's not referencing a survey or study doesn't make it useless data. Anecdotal data is not useless. There's been a noticeable increase in effeminate men in NYC over the last 6 years. Maybe it's due to the increased acceptance of LGBT, maybe it's something else...
  - brian-armstrong 9y ago
    Are you sure you aren't falling victim to a frequency illusion? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases#Frequency_illusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases#Frequ...
fibbery 9y ago
Auto-tune is probably more of an explanation than hormones. I've been to more than one of concerts in recent years where the lead singer couldn't actually hit the high notes live.
weirdstuff 9y ago
I can't help but have noticed that same thing, anecdotally (very anecdotally, but seems seems so pronounced that I'm commenting). Higher voice registers, smaller frames, more effeminate postures and body language.
xor1 9y ago
I had gynecomastia from when I was 10 years old up until I was in my early 20s, when I had surgery to remove it. Wonder if I can blame plastics for that.

ekianjo 9y ago

Is there a direct correlation between sperm count and appearance though? Its probably more relevant to consider testosterone.

ovao 9y ago

Effeminate by what attributes?

PrimHelios 9y ago
Western cultural values, I guess. This seems to be a really weird talking point of the right wing (although I'm not saying that it's only the right, or that hyperdunc is right wing), that people have stopped caring about hyper-masculinity, and it must be caused by hormones and not just a change in cultural values.

algesten 9y ago

In the 1700s castratis were quite popular throughout Europe. Does that mean they had low sperm count then, or was it just something people liked? I really don't believe you can explain cultural phenomenon through medical science.

emersonrsantos 9y ago
Castrati means literally castrated, normally boys before puberty to retain the soprano/mezzo-soprano pitch on adulthood. This got forbidden in 1870 in Italy and by the Roman church in 1902.
phamilton 9y ago
castratis have exceptionally low sperm count
cperciva 9y ago
Well, castrati certainly did have low sperm counts...

imron 9y ago

> I've also noticed that a lot of male pop stars have really high voices. Male pop stars had really high voices long before 20 years ago - the BeeGees, the Beach Boys, Freddy Mercury are three off the top of my head. I'm sure I could come up with some more if I thought about it for more than 5 seconds.

seandoe 9y ago
Not that the op comment has any basis, but singing falsetto or having vocal range has little to do with the high/low-ness of the baseline voice.

brian-armstrong 9y ago

Is this sort of pseudoscientific anecdata what passes for discourse on HN now? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - where's yours?

bousaid 9y ago
Wow, I'm just as dumbfounded as you.
verroq 9y ago
The rate of males identifying as gay has been rising either because of the changing culture, and/or something in the water. Such a statement claiming western men as becoming more effeminate is obvious.
- csydas 9y ago
  Well homosexuality being more accepted I guess would be a cultural change, yes, but that doesn't mean there are more gay men now than there were before, it means there are more men who are openly gay than there were before. It's a bit hard to tell whether there was an actual increase in gay men due to the known fact that many men hid their sexuality prior to it being more acceptable. I think this is a far more sensible and defensible position and a simpler explanation than something in water, unless that was a facetious comment.
RealityNow 9y ago
Just because he's not referencing a survey or study doesn't make it useless data. Anecdotal data is not useless. There's been a noticeable increase in effeminate men in NYC over the last 6 years. Maybe it's due to the increased acceptance of LGBT, maybe it's something else...
- brian-armstrong 9y ago
  Are you sure you aren't falling victim to a frequency illusion? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases#Frequency_illusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases#Frequ...

fibbery 9y ago

Auto-tune is probably more of an explanation than hormones. I've been to more than one of concerts in recent years where the lead singer couldn't actually hit the high notes live.

weirdstuff 9y ago

I can't help but have noticed that same thing, anecdotally (very anecdotally, but seems seems so pronounced that I'm commenting). Higher voice registers, smaller frames, more effeminate postures and body language.

xor1 9y ago

I had gynecomastia from when I was 10 years old up until I was in my early 20s, when I had surgery to remove it. Wonder if I can blame plastics for that.