5 ms·

10 US Navy sailors missing after destroyer collides with merchant ship

15 points by jrs235 9y ago

jrs235 9y ago
1 point by jrs235 6 minutes ago | edit [-] [-] Is it possible that someone is in fact utilizing GPS "hacking" that is assisting in the likelihood of these collisions? There was a story (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15003333 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15003333) here on hckrnews about GPS "hacking" last week, although most people said the issue was known and not that big of a deal.
- 1001101 9y ago
  IEEE Spectrum has a report on successful GPS spoofs (including of a ship), as well as speculation about Iran's capabilities (in capturing an RQ-170 as well as a patrol boat). It's great survey material. [1] [1] http://spectrum.ieee.org/telecom/security/protecting-gps-from-spoofers-is-critical-to-the-future-of-navigation http://spectrum.ieee.org/telecom/security/protecting-gps-fro...
- greenyoda 9y ago
  Both of these ships would have radar to detect each other, so I'm not sure how effectively you could attack them with GPS spoofing. Even if they go off course, they can still avoid obstacles with radar. I'd also guess that a destroyer wouldn't have to rely on GPS - it would probably have an old-fashioned inertial navigation system (gyroscope) as a backup. In a war against a major power like Russia or China, you should expect that they'd be able to knock out your GPS satellites.
  - Grazester 9y ago
    Exactly. Whatever happened to the powerful radars these war ships carry?
taspeotis 9y ago
This article [1] was published when the USS Fitzgerald had its collision. It describes how hard it can be to manage the position of the ship relative to other vessels. [1] http://taskandpurpose.com/fitzgeralds-watch-team-mine/ http://taskandpurpose.com/fitzgeralds-watch-team-mine/
synicalx 9y ago
How do the sailors go missing? They're either on the boat, in which case they're not missing because that's where they should be, or they're in the water in which case they'll be very close by. Am I missing something here? Surely it's normal for at least one person to look overboard and check for floaters after you prang your boat?
- soneil 9y ago
  Pretty simple answer really - these things usually happen at night. There's a much higher chance of spotting a tanker during daylight. It's surprisingly difficult to see someone in the water during the day - there's less body sticking out of the water, than there are waves to hide it. At night? No-one wants to admit it, but you're a lost cause before you hit the water. The other half of your problem is that missing doesn't mean MOB. In the relatively recent Fitzgerald incident, those lost were found in a sealed compartment. Pretty much damage-control 101 to seal any compartment you can, and especially those breached. While locking people in a flooded compartment has to be a gutwrenching decision to make, the alternative is to allow a compartmentalized breach to take the whole crew.
xxxdarrenxxx 9y ago
I don't get it. Aircraft carrier and a Tanker.. perhaps, but it's a destroyer.. intercept and agility is it's entire design concept... Tanker: 30k ton, 10 knots Destroyer: 9k ton, 30+ knots https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWZA_nJrQW4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWZA_nJrQW4 At 7:27, look how short of a distance it needs to make a 90 degree turn. I don't see any scenario where they can't evade it, even for hollywood standards it's quite unrealistic. It takes miles too change course on a tanker (as stated in the article), which means you can anticipate your course miles ahead. Even a child with basic math can figure this equation out. I don't know, secret US stalking off ships gone wrong, Korean infiltration, GPS spoofing, corrupt crew, lazy crew, crash on purpose.. What do we really know, it's military in the end, which means a potential for classified info being held back. If it's a fatal technical flaw, they would not tell that to public media I figure, for political reasons.

15 points by jrs235 9y ago

1 point by jrs235 6 minutes ago | edit [-] [-] Is it possible that someone is in fact utilizing GPS "hacking" that is assisting in the likelihood of these collisions? There was a story (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15003333 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15003333) here on hckrnews about GPS "hacking" last week, although most people said the issue was known and not that big of a deal.

1001101 9y ago
IEEE Spectrum has a report on successful GPS spoofs (including of a ship), as well as speculation about Iran's capabilities (in capturing an RQ-170 as well as a patrol boat). It's great survey material. [1] [1] http://spectrum.ieee.org/telecom/security/protecting-gps-from-spoofers-is-critical-to-the-future-of-navigation http://spectrum.ieee.org/telecom/security/protecting-gps-fro...
greenyoda 9y ago
Both of these ships would have radar to detect each other, so I'm not sure how effectively you could attack them with GPS spoofing. Even if they go off course, they can still avoid obstacles with radar. I'd also guess that a destroyer wouldn't have to rely on GPS - it would probably have an old-fashioned inertial navigation system (gyroscope) as a backup. In a war against a major power like Russia or China, you should expect that they'd be able to knock out your GPS satellites.
- Grazester 9y ago
  Exactly. Whatever happened to the powerful radars these war ships carry?

taspeotis 9y ago

This article [1] was published when the USS Fitzgerald had its collision. It describes how hard it can be to manage the position of the ship relative to other vessels. [1] http://taskandpurpose.com/fitzgeralds-watch-team-mine/ http://taskandpurpose.com/fitzgeralds-watch-team-mine/

synicalx 9y ago

How do the sailors go missing? They're either on the boat, in which case they're not missing because that's where they should be, or they're in the water in which case they'll be very close by. Am I missing something here? Surely it's normal for at least one person to look overboard and check for floaters after you prang your boat?

soneil 9y ago
Pretty simple answer really - these things usually happen at night. There's a much higher chance of spotting a tanker during daylight. It's surprisingly difficult to see someone in the water during the day - there's less body sticking out of the water, than there are waves to hide it. At night? No-one wants to admit it, but you're a lost cause before you hit the water. The other half of your problem is that missing doesn't mean MOB. In the relatively recent Fitzgerald incident, those lost were found in a sealed compartment. Pretty much damage-control 101 to seal any compartment you can, and especially those breached. While locking people in a flooded compartment has to be a gutwrenching decision to make, the alternative is to allow a compartmentalized breach to take the whole crew.

xxxdarrenxxx 9y ago

I don't get it. Aircraft carrier and a Tanker.. perhaps, but it's a destroyer.. intercept and agility is it's entire design concept... Tanker: 30k ton, 10 knots Destroyer: 9k ton, 30+ knots https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWZA_nJrQW4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWZA_nJrQW4 At 7:27, look how short of a distance it needs to make a 90 degree turn. I don't see any scenario where they can't evade it, even for hollywood standards it's quite unrealistic. It takes miles too change course on a tanker (as stated in the article), which means you can anticipate your course miles ahead. Even a child with basic math can figure this equation out. I don't know, secret US stalking off ships gone wrong, Korean infiltration, GPS spoofing, corrupt crew, lazy crew, crash on purpose.. What do we really know, it's military in the end, which means a potential for classified info being held back. If it's a fatal technical flaw, they would not tell that to public media I figure, for political reasons.