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Again the reason why creativity goes down - nowhere to apply it. There is no industry left in USA - the only way you can apply your creativity is by creating so

by ilkhd2 16y ago

Again the reason why creativity goes down - nowhere to apply it. There is no industry left in USA - the only way you can apply your creativity is by creating something, but your creations are not going to be competitive - chinese workforce cheaper, small shops you can sell through your staff all gone and replaced by targets/best buys/evilmarts and so on. Only things that are produced in USA is food and lo-tech wooden/metalwork.

greenlblue 16y ago
You've listed a bunch of problems but nowhere do I see any creative solutions. Wasn't that the main point of the article?
thaumaturgy 16y ago
That was an odd comment to make, since it was unrelated to the content of the article and even somewhat runs contrary to what the article was about. So I read through your comment history, and understood that you're just grinding an axe. It would be nice if you didn't do that. Creativity doesn't require someone to buy it. The article did a pretty neat job of describing creativity, defining it, understanding it, and coming up with ways to improve it.
- ilkhd2 16y ago
  Creativity does not appear from nowhere. Of course, it is great to foster it, yet, with loss of industrial knowledge, less and less is left to be taught to people. I do not buy fairy tales that there is abstract creativity you can teach people - there is engineering, artistic, scientific "creativities". One of important sources of creativity come from successful examples of its implementation by other people, and the more industrial you are the more way to use your creativity and get feedback from real, tangible, physical world. And here is my answer - you want be more creative in engineering creativity increase you industry output.
  - thaumaturgy 16y ago
    That doesn't make any sense. 1. The article described specific research into creativity that does suggest that it can be taught, but you're completely ignoring the content of the article. 2. We live in a global economy now. A firm in the U.S. can design a product which is manufactured in another country. This would negatively affect U.S. manufacturing output, but would not have any impact on "creativity" as you describe it. 3. I have to disagree with pretty much every single statement you're making here. Creativity can be spontaneous -- any bored kid in a school class with a pencil and a paper will show you that. Loss of industrial knowledge does not mean there is "less and less left to be taught to people" -- that's completely uncorrelated, because industrial knowledge isn't the only form of knowledge available to a modern society. Whether or not you "buy" the "fairy tales", the interesting parts of this article do suggest that abstract creativity can be taught, and those suggestions are based on quite a lot of research -- versus your simple assertion that it's not true because it doesn't fit into your industrial-complex worldview. And so on. You're pushing some kind of agenda and it's not even self-consistent.
    - varjag 16y ago
      > We live in a global economy now. A firm in the U.S. can design a product which is manufactured in another country. This would negatively affect U.S. manufacturing output, but would not have any impact on "creativity" as you describe it. It can as long as there still remains workforce skilled in details of manufacturing and engineering. They don't disappear overnight. Remember, the USA had decades of industrial development and superiority to the rest of the world. You'll see less and less of that kind of creativity, the more your country transforms into service economy where people only can cut hair to each other.
      - dgordon 16y ago
        Actually, the US still leads the world in manufacturing output (for the moment...projections seem to suggest China will take first next year -- http://www.chinaeconomicreview.com/dailybriefing/2010_06_21/China_to_surpass_US_as_worlds_biggest_manufacturing_nation_in_2011.html http://www.chinaeconomicreview.com/dailybriefing/2010_06_21/... ) But even a close second is still a long way from what the popular myth that "we don't make anything here anymore" would suggest.
chipsy 16y ago
I have two responses to this. First of all, it is getting absurdly easy to find useful feedback. For every topic you might discuss, for every skill you might learn, there's at least one discussion forum, and in each of those forums there are intense, even competitive practitioners of the involved art who will tear you apart if you aren't working up to standard. Sometimes this is done in bad faith, but on the whole, that part of the "creative loop" is the best it's ever been. The main factor that holds people back from any creative endeavor is motivation. When hanging out with friends the motivation problem becomes a major factor; our likelihood of engagement and satisfaction is a lot higher when we get together to _create_ rather than to _consume_. But we have to get ourselves pumped up to do something creative, and engagement is difficult because everyone involved has to pierce through the BS and fragile esteem that turns arbitrary activities into "hard work" or "way over my head." My second point is that by losing the work environments in the "heavy" industries, the USA will be deprived of creatives in those fields - but that doesn't necessarily mean we lose out on creatives. Look at Richard Florida's books on the "Creative Class" - one of the points he argues is that our major cities are getting increasingly "peaky" as the creative people in each industry pool together more and more closely. We already have some creative powerhouses(NY, LA, SV to name a few), and there is no reason for them to decline anytime soon. Where we still have industries involving physical goods and high capital requirements, intense pressure exists to take a high-tech approach and automate everything rather than battle to get cheap labor. For example, think of what Amazon is doing with shipping. That stuff requires a lot of creative know-how, and in the coming years we're probably going to see similar approaches taken in a lot of industries that are traditionally "people services."
- thaumaturgy 16y ago
  > But we have to get ourselves pumped up to do something creative, and engagement is difficult because everyone involved has to pierce through the BS and fragile esteem that turns arbitrary activities into "hard work" or "way over my head." ...and plain ol' laziness. I wrestle with this all the time -- it's quite hard to force myself to work on a project, or read a book, or pick up a pencil and try drawing again for the first time in decades, when I can instead pick up my laptop and browse HN for a while. This problem is compounded by living vicariously: I can read about other people being creative, and that's fun. Eventually I get to a point -- usually at the end of the day -- where I feel compelled to make, fix, or build something, but I should have been doing that all day anyway (and waiting until the end of the day is not optimal). I've not yet figured out how to fix this.
cturner 16y ago
There is no industry left in USA This is a myth. The US is still far and away the largest manufacturer. http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/CompanyFocus/the-myth-of-us-industrys-demise.aspx http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/CompanyFocus/... Even if it weren't true, there are more opportunities to be create value with unconstrained creativity than ever before. You can sit down and write code or draw designs and be creative with zero outlay. Excuses excuses excuses.
- ilkhd2 16y ago
  You are looking at a very wrong graph. This one is correct: http://investing.curiouscatblog.net/2010/06/28/manufacturing-output-as-a-percent-of-gdp-by-country/ http://investing.curiouscatblog.net/2010/06/28/manufacturing.... Look carefully at China and Germany, and then to USA. See - QED - USA has no industry left. There is no business case, no economic pressure for creativity. Yes, you can create, but you do not have time - for your creation nobody is gonna pay money - so there is no incentive to be creative. Excuses?! Any engineer knows that many good ideas appear as the result of interaction with production process, but if something is designed in USA but made in China then the loopback time grows very big and you end up with making same boring stuff year after year, year after year...
  - thaumaturgy 16y ago
    I've worked in manufacturing. I'd love to hear just how it is you think that "manufacturing-as-a-percentage-of-GDP" is any kind of an indicator for creativity in a country, considering that manufacturing is one of the most menial jobs there is.
  - cturner 16y ago
    You are looking at a very wrong graph. No. You said, "There is no industry left in USA". That graph gives manufacturing as a percentage of GDP, which isn't relevant.
    - ilkhd2 16y ago
      It is very relevant. This how one economy gets classified as service or industrial. Even if we take different approach, overall industrial output of USA per capita, it still less than Germany's.
zb 16y ago
You sort-of have a point. Here's Eugene Ferguson on the Sputnik-triggered creativity fad of the 1950s: More important to a designer than a set of techniques (empty of content) to induce creativity are a knowledge of current practice and products and a growing stock of firsthand knowledge and insights gained through critical field observation of engineering projects and industrial plants. In the 1950s, engineering schools still provided many opportunities to gather such knowledge. It is ironic that the radical change in curricula [introducing "creativity" courses] that occurred n the 1950s eliminated those activities that put the students in touch with the authentic world of engineering. - Engineering and the Mind's Eye, pp. 57-58 (For the record, I don't buy into your theory that China is a problem here at all.) But, the article claims the worst decline is in children from kindergarten to sixth grade. I respectfully submit that such children are probably not taking geopolitical factors into account in their decision to not be creative. I personally suspect that the test is a bit of a crock. Notwithstanding that, and a bit of the usual left brain/right brain nonsense thrown in, it actually seemed like a pretty good article (though probably not as good as if they'd left "creativity" out of it). An emphasis on rote learning and standardised tests, if that is indeed the way the system is going, is definitely going to have an impact on engagement if nothing else.

by ilkhd2 16y ago

greenlblue 16y ago

You've listed a bunch of problems but nowhere do I see any creative solutions. Wasn't that the main point of the article?

thaumaturgy 16y ago

That was an odd comment to make, since it was unrelated to the content of the article and even somewhat runs contrary to what the article was about. So I read through your comment history, and understood that you're just grinding an axe. It would be nice if you didn't do that. Creativity doesn't require someone to buy it. The article did a pretty neat job of describing creativity, defining it, understanding it, and coming up with ways to improve it.

ilkhd2 16y ago
Creativity does not appear from nowhere. Of course, it is great to foster it, yet, with loss of industrial knowledge, less and less is left to be taught to people. I do not buy fairy tales that there is abstract creativity you can teach people - there is engineering, artistic, scientific "creativities". One of important sources of creativity come from successful examples of its implementation by other people, and the more industrial you are the more way to use your creativity and get feedback from real, tangible, physical world. And here is my answer - you want be more creative in engineering creativity increase you industry output.
- thaumaturgy 16y ago
  That doesn't make any sense. 1. The article described specific research into creativity that does suggest that it can be taught, but you're completely ignoring the content of the article. 2. We live in a global economy now. A firm in the U.S. can design a product which is manufactured in another country. This would negatively affect U.S. manufacturing output, but would not have any impact on "creativity" as you describe it. 3. I have to disagree with pretty much every single statement you're making here. Creativity can be spontaneous -- any bored kid in a school class with a pencil and a paper will show you that. Loss of industrial knowledge does not mean there is "less and less left to be taught to people" -- that's completely uncorrelated, because industrial knowledge isn't the only form of knowledge available to a modern society. Whether or not you "buy" the "fairy tales", the interesting parts of this article do suggest that abstract creativity can be taught, and those suggestions are based on quite a lot of research -- versus your simple assertion that it's not true because it doesn't fit into your industrial-complex worldview. And so on. You're pushing some kind of agenda and it's not even self-consistent.
  - varjag 16y ago
    > We live in a global economy now. A firm in the U.S. can design a product which is manufactured in another country. This would negatively affect U.S. manufacturing output, but would not have any impact on "creativity" as you describe it. It can as long as there still remains workforce skilled in details of manufacturing and engineering. They don't disappear overnight. Remember, the USA had decades of industrial development and superiority to the rest of the world. You'll see less and less of that kind of creativity, the more your country transforms into service economy where people only can cut hair to each other.
    - dgordon 16y ago
      Actually, the US still leads the world in manufacturing output (for the moment...projections seem to suggest China will take first next year -- http://www.chinaeconomicreview.com/dailybriefing/2010_06_21/China_to_surpass_US_as_worlds_biggest_manufacturing_nation_in_2011.html http://www.chinaeconomicreview.com/dailybriefing/2010_06_21/... ) But even a close second is still a long way from what the popular myth that "we don't make anything here anymore" would suggest.

chipsy 16y ago

I have two responses to this. First of all, it is getting absurdly easy to find useful feedback. For every topic you might discuss, for every skill you might learn, there's at least one discussion forum, and in each of those forums there are intense, even competitive practitioners of the involved art who will tear you apart if you aren't working up to standard. Sometimes this is done in bad faith, but on the whole, that part of the "creative loop" is the best it's ever been. The main factor that holds people back from any creative endeavor is motivation. When hanging out with friends the motivation problem becomes a major factor; our likelihood of engagement and satisfaction is a lot higher when we get together to _create_ rather than to _consume_. But we have to get ourselves pumped up to do something creative, and engagement is difficult because everyone involved has to pierce through the BS and fragile esteem that turns arbitrary activities into "hard work" or "way over my head." My second point is that by losing the work environments in the "heavy" industries, the USA will be deprived of creatives in those fields - but that doesn't necessarily mean we lose out on creatives. Look at Richard Florida's books on the "Creative Class" - one of the points he argues is that our major cities are getting increasingly "peaky" as the creative people in each industry pool together more and more closely. We already have some creative powerhouses(NY, LA, SV to name a few), and there is no reason for them to decline anytime soon. Where we still have industries involving physical goods and high capital requirements, intense pressure exists to take a high-tech approach and automate everything rather than battle to get cheap labor. For example, think of what Amazon is doing with shipping. That stuff requires a lot of creative know-how, and in the coming years we're probably going to see similar approaches taken in a lot of industries that are traditionally "people services."

thaumaturgy 16y ago
> But we have to get ourselves pumped up to do something creative, and engagement is difficult because everyone involved has to pierce through the BS and fragile esteem that turns arbitrary activities into "hard work" or "way over my head." ...and plain ol' laziness. I wrestle with this all the time -- it's quite hard to force myself to work on a project, or read a book, or pick up a pencil and try drawing again for the first time in decades, when I can instead pick up my laptop and browse HN for a while. This problem is compounded by living vicariously: I can read about other people being creative, and that's fun. Eventually I get to a point -- usually at the end of the day -- where I feel compelled to make, fix, or build something, but I should have been doing that all day anyway (and waiting until the end of the day is not optimal). I've not yet figured out how to fix this.

cturner 16y ago

There is no industry left in USA This is a myth. The US is still far and away the largest manufacturer. http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/CompanyFocus/the-myth-of-us-industrys-demise.aspx http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/CompanyFocus/... Even if it weren't true, there are more opportunities to be create value with unconstrained creativity than ever before. You can sit down and write code or draw designs and be creative with zero outlay. Excuses excuses excuses.

ilkhd2 16y ago
You are looking at a very wrong graph. This one is correct: http://investing.curiouscatblog.net/2010/06/28/manufacturing-output-as-a-percent-of-gdp-by-country/ http://investing.curiouscatblog.net/2010/06/28/manufacturing.... Look carefully at China and Germany, and then to USA. See - QED - USA has no industry left. There is no business case, no economic pressure for creativity. Yes, you can create, but you do not have time - for your creation nobody is gonna pay money - so there is no incentive to be creative. Excuses?! Any engineer knows that many good ideas appear as the result of interaction with production process, but if something is designed in USA but made in China then the loopback time grows very big and you end up with making same boring stuff year after year, year after year...
- thaumaturgy 16y ago
  I've worked in manufacturing. I'd love to hear just how it is you think that "manufacturing-as-a-percentage-of-GDP" is any kind of an indicator for creativity in a country, considering that manufacturing is one of the most menial jobs there is.
- cturner 16y ago
  You are looking at a very wrong graph. No. You said, "There is no industry left in USA". That graph gives manufacturing as a percentage of GDP, which isn't relevant.
  - ilkhd2 16y ago
    It is very relevant. This how one economy gets classified as service or industrial. Even if we take different approach, overall industrial output of USA per capita, it still less than Germany's.

zb 16y ago

You sort-of have a point. Here's Eugene Ferguson on the Sputnik-triggered creativity fad of the 1950s: More important to a designer than a set of techniques (empty of content) to induce creativity are a knowledge of current practice and products and a growing stock of firsthand knowledge and insights gained through critical field observation of engineering projects and industrial plants. In the 1950s, engineering schools still provided many opportunities to gather such knowledge. It is ironic that the radical change in curricula [introducing "creativity" courses] that occurred n the 1950s eliminated those activities that put the students in touch with the authentic world of engineering. - Engineering and the Mind's Eye, pp. 57-58 (For the record, I don't buy into your theory that China is a problem here at all.) But, the article claims the worst decline is in children from kindergarten to sixth grade. I respectfully submit that such children are probably not taking geopolitical factors into account in their decision to not be creative. I personally suspect that the test is a bit of a crock. Notwithstanding that, and a bit of the usual left brain/right brain nonsense thrown in, it actually seemed like a pretty good article (though probably not as good as if they'd left "creativity" out of it). An emphasis on rote learning and standardised tests, if that is indeed the way the system is going, is definitely going to have an impact on engagement if nothing else.