6 ms·

What a Border Collie Taught a Linguist About Language

107 points by mcone 9y ago

tjr 9y ago
I feel that my life would be missing something important without a border collie. Other dogs I have had kind of existed alongside me; my border collie seems to integrate herself into everything I do. Highly recommend Donald McCaig's book, Eminent Dogs, Dangerous Men: https://www.amazon.com/Eminent-Dogs-Dangerous-Men-Searching/dp/1599210592/ https://www.amazon.com/Eminent-Dogs-Dangerous-Men-Searching/...
- OJFord 9y ago
  Can you give any examples, to help (non-Collie) dog owners get past 'My dog is integrated in everything I do; there's no way yours is more so than mine!'?
  - conductr 9y ago
    I agree with the sentiment. BC's are awesome dogs. I think it's because they are so damn smart. It's the closest thing to having a human, except all the benefits of having a dog. My dog was insanely in-tune with my body language. I don't think I trained him very well but we naturally communicated very well. I could nod my head from across the dog park and he knew it was time to go home, stuff like that. If we were walking, I could glance my eyes in a certain direction and he knew to cross the street. (I usually didn't have him on a leash). He made judgement calls. I would watch him do stuff he knew was wrong, and I refuse to believe it was an impulse. It was calculated. You could see it was conflicted but he seriously thought it through and concluded; eating raw chicken > ramifications. I could look in his eyes and _know_ what he was thinking.... Maybe that was all in my head but I don't think so. That said, the key is having a very smart dog. It can exist outside of the BC breed but with BC's you have a high success rate of having an intelligent dog. We've had Labs too. Some similar to the BC, others good loving dogs but just dogs. We have a Yorkie now, she's an idiot.
    - drakonka 9y ago
      I felt like this with my Australian Cattle Dog/Australian Kelpie mix. It's like she could read my mind. I think that herding breeds tend to be especially intelligent and in-tune dogs - they would have to be, to work with their owner and often other dogs to manoeuvre sometimes very large herds of bigger animals in just the right way.
      - conductr 9y ago
        It's very much like mind reading. Or like a language you have with the dog. My theory on herding dog intelligence is because they are reliant on their vision and their brains need to be better at processing all that vision requires equates to smarter dogs. My BC was so reliant on his sight, I have several memories of him not being able to find a treat or something because he didn't see where it landed or it went under something. He knew he saw me throw it, so he'd get kind of frantic an look all over the place. Eventually, he would realize he had a nose and could smell around for it.
      - lsaferite 9y ago
        I had a Catahoula that was crazy smart like this. Also a herding dog. I miss him all the time. :(
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - jldugger 9y ago
    My neighbors had a Collie, and the dog had paced around the fence perimeter so often there was a dirt trail. If you don't give them a task to do, they'll invent their own.
    - rleigh 9y ago
      My old border collie would invent games and play them by herself if she was left to her own devices. Other breeds (and even others of the same breed) not so much. It makes me wonder if the ability experience boredom, and to undertake activities to alleviate boredom, is part and parcel of higher level intelligence. Most lower animals don't have sufficient time aside from basic survival activities to allow it?
  - craigsmansion 9y ago
    I guess you have to live with one for a while to really notice. I didn't notice until I started walking with other dogs. Some of these were smart and eager to please as well, but it always felt different, somehow "clunky". Border collies seem to be able to respond to intent instead of command. It wasn't until I started paying closer attention to this mind reading capability that I figured out I, for example, slightly tilted my head before I indicated a direction to go in. That was seemingly enough to prime my dog. With this ability to pick up on subconscious cues, it's not hard to start feeling your border collie is not just a companion, but is an extension of yourself. Even though this sounds great, and something every dog owner would want, I wouldn't recommend having a Border Collie. I feel some of these desirable traits lie very close to neurosis, which can manifest itself in various ways. Some harmless, some destructive. Also, I feel because they are intelligent and highly active, they are more prone to psychological damage. I'd say only get a border collie as a pet if you're willing to let a dog determine a significant part of your life for a long time. If you do so, however, you will have a "magic dog".
  - nrhk 9y ago
    I walk mine without a leash and she almost never disobeys other than the occasional squirrel. They pick up on things very fast so it's very easy to get them quickly integrated into the small things in your life. When I go shopping I'll leave all my windows completely down and she just hangs on the edge and waits, despite being able to jump out she never does. When we get back she helps carry bags back into the house. They read humans incredibly well. Their constantly trying to predict your next move so they can take the appropriate action. so when we yell at my newphew to get away from the door the dog will physically get in his way. After a few times she just knows to do it. Likewise she's great during parties to herd people into the right areas. I point at something she grabs it, I get angry at someone she starts growling, I don't want to be disturbed, she intercepts people getting close to my desk. I'm sure many other breeds can get to a similar point but it might not be as easy or intuitive for them. I never tried especially hard to train my dog.
  - tjr 9y ago
    My initial statement refers to my own personal experience with border collies compared to my own personal experience with non-border collies. I really can't speak to anyone else's experience with their dogs, and I hope that everyone with a dog cherishes that relationship, regardless of what kind of dog it is. So then what I have I found unique about border collies? Some other posters have already shared about the border collie aptitude for communicating with and understanding people. I think that personality traits of dogs are probably amplified by their lineage, by their breeding. Border collies (and other kinds of dogs as well) have a long history of functional utility. Many people still use these dogs to work farms and in other scenarios taking care of herds of animals. But whether if they are employed in that manner or not, it is still in their nature to assist people with work, with activities. Border collies are described as being poor choices to have if you're not going to routinely engage them. That plausibly negative trait is probably the very same positive trait that makes them intimately interested in everything you do. If you do the laundry, your border collie is there watching, ready to help. If you clean the garage, your border collie is there watching, ready to help. If you are debugging C code, your border collie is there watching, ready to help. Other dogs I have personally experienced seem totally fine to do things with you, but also totally fine to be off by themselves, or to do nothing at all. I do get the impression that, to one degree or another, many dogs which excel at similar activities (herding, flyball, agility, etc.) may share personality traits with border collies. Does all of that equate to a "better" dog? Absolutely not. In fact, I can readily imagine many people NOT finding border collie traits desirable. I've seen border collie breeders admonish would-be adopters to strongly consider other kinds of dogs unless they are quite certain that a border collie is what they want. And I would advise the same: please don't get a border collie if you're not sure. I live in the suburbs with a good-sized yard about a block away from a large nature park. As much as I love the hustle & bustle of Boston and New York City, my dog would be miserable there.
    - craigsmansion 9y ago
      > Other dogs I have personally experienced seem totally fine to do things with you, but also totally fine to be off by themselves, or to do nothing at all. I'd like to highlight this for prospective dog owners who are reading this and are are thinking about Border Collies. Border Collies are generally very fond of being with their owners. Some of them might get destructive when they feel abandoned, but even for those who can stay alone at home for some time: imagine what it feels like to sit in a featureless room (with no smartphone), having a highly active mind and simply having to wait... Some dogs revel in lazing about whilst their human is out socialising or doing whatever. Some Border Collies can bear it, but in my experience, it's always detrimental. They are not convenience dogs.
- Judgmentality 9y ago
  I've always wanted a border collie, but until I live on a farm or have a large house with a family I just can't justify getting one. They require a lot more stimulation than most dogs.
  - beezle 9y ago
    Having owned a border collie I can say they are (in general) not the best dogs to have around young kids. They tend to want to heard the little ones and may sometimes nip at ankles if order is not maintained. To an extent this behavior can be influenced by how much work the dog is getting, Genetics too - believe it or not some have a greatly reduced herding instinct. Also, a farm is not essential but daily work/activity is - flyball/Frisbee agility etc work well to.
    - e40 9y ago
      I was in Scotland in the 90's driving around in the north looking at castles. I saw a really interesting one on a farm, so I drove past the gate and stopped, to find someone to ask if it was OK if I drove to the castle (ruins of one, actually). They were fine with it. On the way out, their Border Collie stopped us just before the gate and ran circles around us. You see, we were in a very small, white car. Perhaps we looked like a cow. My passenger got out and distracted the dog while I drove through the gate.
      - quantumhobbit 9y ago
        My wife grew up with a border collie. Her grandparents kept chickens, fluffy white chickens, and to the dog they were tiny sheep. So the dog spent hours herding the chickens, kept them in a group. Of course chickens are not sheep so they would bolt as soon as there was an opening, so the poor dog couldn't rest for a second. After several hours they literally had to drag him inside so he wouldn't die of exhaustion. Crazy smart dog, allegedly he would escape their fence and go hitch hiking along the highway. They didn't know where he was escaping to until a friend told them she saw him on the road and he jumped in her car.
    - 9y ago
- swlkr 9y ago
  I feel the same way about my german shepherd.
  - paviva 9y ago
    German shepherds are great. I may sound crazy, but I really believe my GSD has some sense of language and is not just barking instinctively. His "I want to pee", "I want to eat", and "I need to poop" barks are different enough that I can reliably understand him. When he is outside in the yard and wants to get back in, he calls me with a short guttural bark, whereas with my wife he uses a long whiny call. When we are both home, the type of call seems to correlate pretty well with the person he wants to see. It's like he's given us names.
mabub24 9y ago
Really interesting article. In regards to: "Cooperation leading to the development of language is one of the leading hypotheses for what makes human beings unique among the animals." The core difference between humans and animals is that humans can reason; we possess cogitative powers. Philosophers of mind and language, like PMS Hacker, have written extensively on this topic. Humans can ask "why?", can plan, can hope, can wish, can dream, all through language. Language is an ability and allows us to reason, give reasons, and have reasons. Dogs and animals can't ask "why?" "Why?" is beyond their limit of expression because they do not possess language. They can be confused, but confusion is not asking "why?" because "why?" is a demand for reasons. Confusion is simply not knowing what is going on, while reasoning is thinking in future and past tenses, it allows us to plan and introspect. I think the equation of whistling with full language is interesting, but it potentially reads cogitative powers in dogs when it might simply be the humans reading themselves into the dogs. The point around cooperation is fascinating in this regard, in which case, the cooperation might be that humans reason for the dog. In other words, the dogs provide the brawn and the handlers supply the brains. We domesticated dogs because they worked for us.
- agumonkey 9y ago
  Well a lot of time I asked why and was confused. Lots of people are even more confused. They may ask why but have no clue whatsoever about anything they're looking at. Maybe we have larger neuron capacity than animals that allows to store signals, relationships that "maybe" will later resolve that why, while they just have to accept that confusion and just go along doing something else, maybe remembering a map (context, confusion, avoid).
- interfixus 9y ago
  >The core difference between humans and animals is that humans can reason So there's a body of research suggesting beyond reasonable doubt that no animal - except us - is capable of reason? Do you have a link?
  - Brockenstein 9y ago
    I would be skeptical of research that says other animals are incapable of reasoning. I think it would be more along the lines of the limits of their reasoning, and other abilities to utilize the reasoning they're capable of. Clearly there are some differences between humans and other animals, even other primates. But it's hard to quantify those exactly. If humans have reasoning score of 10, do dogs have reasoning of 1 or 5? Even the variability among people and measurable differences between individual dogs or breed of dog further complicates that.
lazyant 9y ago
whistled language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silbo_Gomero https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silbo_Gomero
ardit33 9y ago
The smartest dog I had was a Border Collie/Breton Espanol mix. Very curious, very smart at learning new things. I miss her. They need a yard/open space as they are very lively dogs, and we have a large backyard. They are not meant to be apartment dog.
computator 9y ago
> Rico could infer the name of a third, unfamiliar object when presented with it alongside two of his toys. Chaser could learn names by exclusion and remember them, just like Rico. Neil Degrasse Tyson demonstrates the above with the actual dog Chaser: https://youtu.be/_6479QAJuz8?t=66 https://youtu.be/_6479QAJuz8?t=66 I almost always prefer the written explanation rather than watching a video, but this is one case where it's worth seeing.
bigpoo 9y ago
I like dogs.

107 points by mcone 9y ago

tjr 9y ago

I feel that my life would be missing something important without a border collie. Other dogs I have had kind of existed alongside me; my border collie seems to integrate herself into everything I do. Highly recommend Donald McCaig's book, Eminent Dogs, Dangerous Men: https://www.amazon.com/Eminent-Dogs-Dangerous-Men-Searching/dp/1599210592/ https://www.amazon.com/Eminent-Dogs-Dangerous-Men-Searching/...

OJFord 9y ago
Can you give any examples, to help (non-Collie) dog owners get past 'My dog is integrated in everything I do; there's no way yours is more so than mine!'?
- conductr 9y ago
  I agree with the sentiment. BC's are awesome dogs. I think it's because they are so damn smart. It's the closest thing to having a human, except all the benefits of having a dog. My dog was insanely in-tune with my body language. I don't think I trained him very well but we naturally communicated very well. I could nod my head from across the dog park and he knew it was time to go home, stuff like that. If we were walking, I could glance my eyes in a certain direction and he knew to cross the street. (I usually didn't have him on a leash). He made judgement calls. I would watch him do stuff he knew was wrong, and I refuse to believe it was an impulse. It was calculated. You could see it was conflicted but he seriously thought it through and concluded; eating raw chicken > ramifications. I could look in his eyes and _know_ what he was thinking.... Maybe that was all in my head but I don't think so. That said, the key is having a very smart dog. It can exist outside of the BC breed but with BC's you have a high success rate of having an intelligent dog. We've had Labs too. Some similar to the BC, others good loving dogs but just dogs. We have a Yorkie now, she's an idiot.
  - drakonka 9y ago
    I felt like this with my Australian Cattle Dog/Australian Kelpie mix. It's like she could read my mind. I think that herding breeds tend to be especially intelligent and in-tune dogs - they would have to be, to work with their owner and often other dogs to manoeuvre sometimes very large herds of bigger animals in just the right way.
    - conductr 9y ago
      It's very much like mind reading. Or like a language you have with the dog. My theory on herding dog intelligence is because they are reliant on their vision and their brains need to be better at processing all that vision requires equates to smarter dogs. My BC was so reliant on his sight, I have several memories of him not being able to find a treat or something because he didn't see where it landed or it went under something. He knew he saw me throw it, so he'd get kind of frantic an look all over the place. Eventually, he would realize he had a nose and could smell around for it.
    - lsaferite 9y ago
      I had a Catahoula that was crazy smart like this. Also a herding dog. I miss him all the time. :(
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- jldugger 9y ago
  My neighbors had a Collie, and the dog had paced around the fence perimeter so often there was a dirt trail. If you don't give them a task to do, they'll invent their own.
  - rleigh 9y ago
    My old border collie would invent games and play them by herself if she was left to her own devices. Other breeds (and even others of the same breed) not so much. It makes me wonder if the ability experience boredom, and to undertake activities to alleviate boredom, is part and parcel of higher level intelligence. Most lower animals don't have sufficient time aside from basic survival activities to allow it?
- craigsmansion 9y ago
  I guess you have to live with one for a while to really notice. I didn't notice until I started walking with other dogs. Some of these were smart and eager to please as well, but it always felt different, somehow "clunky". Border collies seem to be able to respond to intent instead of command. It wasn't until I started paying closer attention to this mind reading capability that I figured out I, for example, slightly tilted my head before I indicated a direction to go in. That was seemingly enough to prime my dog. With this ability to pick up on subconscious cues, it's not hard to start feeling your border collie is not just a companion, but is an extension of yourself. Even though this sounds great, and something every dog owner would want, I wouldn't recommend having a Border Collie. I feel some of these desirable traits lie very close to neurosis, which can manifest itself in various ways. Some harmless, some destructive. Also, I feel because they are intelligent and highly active, they are more prone to psychological damage. I'd say only get a border collie as a pet if you're willing to let a dog determine a significant part of your life for a long time. If you do so, however, you will have a "magic dog".
- nrhk 9y ago
  I walk mine without a leash and she almost never disobeys other than the occasional squirrel. They pick up on things very fast so it's very easy to get them quickly integrated into the small things in your life. When I go shopping I'll leave all my windows completely down and she just hangs on the edge and waits, despite being able to jump out she never does. When we get back she helps carry bags back into the house. They read humans incredibly well. Their constantly trying to predict your next move so they can take the appropriate action. so when we yell at my newphew to get away from the door the dog will physically get in his way. After a few times she just knows to do it. Likewise she's great during parties to herd people into the right areas. I point at something she grabs it, I get angry at someone she starts growling, I don't want to be disturbed, she intercepts people getting close to my desk. I'm sure many other breeds can get to a similar point but it might not be as easy or intuitive for them. I never tried especially hard to train my dog.
- tjr 9y ago
  My initial statement refers to my own personal experience with border collies compared to my own personal experience with non-border collies. I really can't speak to anyone else's experience with their dogs, and I hope that everyone with a dog cherishes that relationship, regardless of what kind of dog it is. So then what I have I found unique about border collies? Some other posters have already shared about the border collie aptitude for communicating with and understanding people. I think that personality traits of dogs are probably amplified by their lineage, by their breeding. Border collies (and other kinds of dogs as well) have a long history of functional utility. Many people still use these dogs to work farms and in other scenarios taking care of herds of animals. But whether if they are employed in that manner or not, it is still in their nature to assist people with work, with activities. Border collies are described as being poor choices to have if you're not going to routinely engage them. That plausibly negative trait is probably the very same positive trait that makes them intimately interested in everything you do. If you do the laundry, your border collie is there watching, ready to help. If you clean the garage, your border collie is there watching, ready to help. If you are debugging C code, your border collie is there watching, ready to help. Other dogs I have personally experienced seem totally fine to do things with you, but also totally fine to be off by themselves, or to do nothing at all. I do get the impression that, to one degree or another, many dogs which excel at similar activities (herding, flyball, agility, etc.) may share personality traits with border collies. Does all of that equate to a "better" dog? Absolutely not. In fact, I can readily imagine many people NOT finding border collie traits desirable. I've seen border collie breeders admonish would-be adopters to strongly consider other kinds of dogs unless they are quite certain that a border collie is what they want. And I would advise the same: please don't get a border collie if you're not sure. I live in the suburbs with a good-sized yard about a block away from a large nature park. As much as I love the hustle & bustle of Boston and New York City, my dog would be miserable there.
  - craigsmansion 9y ago
    > Other dogs I have personally experienced seem totally fine to do things with you, but also totally fine to be off by themselves, or to do nothing at all. I'd like to highlight this for prospective dog owners who are reading this and are are thinking about Border Collies. Border Collies are generally very fond of being with their owners. Some of them might get destructive when they feel abandoned, but even for those who can stay alone at home for some time: imagine what it feels like to sit in a featureless room (with no smartphone), having a highly active mind and simply having to wait... Some dogs revel in lazing about whilst their human is out socialising or doing whatever. Some Border Collies can bear it, but in my experience, it's always detrimental. They are not convenience dogs.
Judgmentality 9y ago
I've always wanted a border collie, but until I live on a farm or have a large house with a family I just can't justify getting one. They require a lot more stimulation than most dogs.
- beezle 9y ago
  Having owned a border collie I can say they are (in general) not the best dogs to have around young kids. They tend to want to heard the little ones and may sometimes nip at ankles if order is not maintained. To an extent this behavior can be influenced by how much work the dog is getting, Genetics too - believe it or not some have a greatly reduced herding instinct. Also, a farm is not essential but daily work/activity is - flyball/Frisbee agility etc work well to.
  - e40 9y ago
    I was in Scotland in the 90's driving around in the north looking at castles. I saw a really interesting one on a farm, so I drove past the gate and stopped, to find someone to ask if it was OK if I drove to the castle (ruins of one, actually). They were fine with it. On the way out, their Border Collie stopped us just before the gate and ran circles around us. You see, we were in a very small, white car. Perhaps we looked like a cow. My passenger got out and distracted the dog while I drove through the gate.
    - quantumhobbit 9y ago
      My wife grew up with a border collie. Her grandparents kept chickens, fluffy white chickens, and to the dog they were tiny sheep. So the dog spent hours herding the chickens, kept them in a group. Of course chickens are not sheep so they would bolt as soon as there was an opening, so the poor dog couldn't rest for a second. After several hours they literally had to drag him inside so he wouldn't die of exhaustion. Crazy smart dog, allegedly he would escape their fence and go hitch hiking along the highway. They didn't know where he was escaping to until a friend told them she saw him on the road and he jumped in her car.
  - 9y ago
swlkr 9y ago
I feel the same way about my german shepherd.
- paviva 9y ago
  German shepherds are great. I may sound crazy, but I really believe my GSD has some sense of language and is not just barking instinctively. His "I want to pee", "I want to eat", and "I need to poop" barks are different enough that I can reliably understand him. When he is outside in the yard and wants to get back in, he calls me with a short guttural bark, whereas with my wife he uses a long whiny call. When we are both home, the type of call seems to correlate pretty well with the person he wants to see. It's like he's given us names.

mabub24 9y ago

Really interesting article. In regards to: "Cooperation leading to the development of language is one of the leading hypotheses for what makes human beings unique among the animals." The core difference between humans and animals is that humans can reason; we possess cogitative powers. Philosophers of mind and language, like PMS Hacker, have written extensively on this topic. Humans can ask "why?", can plan, can hope, can wish, can dream, all through language. Language is an ability and allows us to reason, give reasons, and have reasons. Dogs and animals can't ask "why?" "Why?" is beyond their limit of expression because they do not possess language. They can be confused, but confusion is not asking "why?" because "why?" is a demand for reasons. Confusion is simply not knowing what is going on, while reasoning is thinking in future and past tenses, it allows us to plan and introspect. I think the equation of whistling with full language is interesting, but it potentially reads cogitative powers in dogs when it might simply be the humans reading themselves into the dogs. The point around cooperation is fascinating in this regard, in which case, the cooperation might be that humans reason for the dog. In other words, the dogs provide the brawn and the handlers supply the brains. We domesticated dogs because they worked for us.

agumonkey 9y ago
Well a lot of time I asked why and was confused. Lots of people are even more confused. They may ask why but have no clue whatsoever about anything they're looking at. Maybe we have larger neuron capacity than animals that allows to store signals, relationships that "maybe" will later resolve that why, while they just have to accept that confusion and just go along doing something else, maybe remembering a map (context, confusion, avoid).
interfixus 9y ago
>The core difference between humans and animals is that humans can reason So there's a body of research suggesting beyond reasonable doubt that no animal - except us - is capable of reason? Do you have a link?
- Brockenstein 9y ago
  I would be skeptical of research that says other animals are incapable of reasoning. I think it would be more along the lines of the limits of their reasoning, and other abilities to utilize the reasoning they're capable of. Clearly there are some differences between humans and other animals, even other primates. But it's hard to quantify those exactly. If humans have reasoning score of 10, do dogs have reasoning of 1 or 5? Even the variability among people and measurable differences between individual dogs or breed of dog further complicates that.

lazyant 9y ago

whistled language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silbo_Gomero https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silbo_Gomero

ardit33 9y ago

The smartest dog I had was a Border Collie/Breton Espanol mix. Very curious, very smart at learning new things. I miss her. They need a yard/open space as they are very lively dogs, and we have a large backyard. They are not meant to be apartment dog.

computator 9y ago

> Rico could infer the name of a third, unfamiliar object when presented with it alongside two of his toys. Chaser could learn names by exclusion and remember them, just like Rico. Neil Degrasse Tyson demonstrates the above with the actual dog Chaser: https://youtu.be/_6479QAJuz8?t=66 https://youtu.be/_6479QAJuz8?t=66 I almost always prefer the written explanation rather than watching a video, but this is one case where it's worth seeing.

bigpoo 9y ago

I like dogs.