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I think the article's premise is wrong: > Faced with a choice between discomfort and higher fares, most travelers choose discomfort Airlines are still in busi

I think the article's premise is wrong: > Faced with a choice between discomfort and higher fares, most travelers choose discomfort Airlines are still in business so the execs think that things are running smoothly. At my peak, I was spending roughly $70k/year on my own flights and probably another $100k for my partner and employees. Now I spend $0. Not a big hit to the airline, but I'm not the only one. Long before airline scandals I ran into the fact that the airlines that I was loyal to made decision after decision that clearly told me they didn't care about my business. So I left. It wasn't an easy decision. But they pushed hard enough that it became a health decision for me and not a business decision. The little stress points that they added to my life compounded enough to the point where they became big. So I stopped. All around the country companies are finding ways to avoid flying altogether. Web conferencing and video conferencing solutions are better than they were 15 years ago, but not significantly. The acceptance of remote work isn't just a budget decision, it's a productivity one. The decision to fly now involves up to 4 hours a week on top of flight times and time to and from the airport. Internet access is terrible at most airports and on most flights. Air travel was once something to look forward to. Now, for the most part, it's simply not. TSA has played a big part, making the experience miserable in a way that only a government agency can. But most of the trouble with flying is really due to airline executive decisions.

rahimnathwani 9y ago
> I think the article's premise is wrong: > > Faced with a choice between discomfort and higher fares, most travelers choose discomfort" If that's the article's premise, then it's correct. Even though there are many more economy seats on each plane than their are business or first, the economy sections are still full. What does this tell us? That most people choose to pay less for an economy seat, rather than pay more for a comfy seat.
- Swizec 9y ago
  > That most people choose to pay less for an economy seat, rather than pay more for a comfy seat. No, it tells us that the cost is not wortg the extras for most people. Important distinction. On transatlantic flights the difference between economy and business can be as much as 4x. That's a lot.
  - jakob223 9y ago
    Those are the same thing.
    - Swizec 9y ago
      Not at all. Let's say coach is $1600, premium economy is $1800, and business is $4000. I'm definitely going to buy premium economy, totally worth $200 because on transatlantic flights it's a lot better than coach. (I've done this before) But $4000 for business? I might do it for $2000. Law of diminishing returns and all that. I'll pay 20% more for something that's 50% better, but I won't pay 200% for something that's 60% better. Now let's look at some real prices. Say you wanted to fly from SFO to CDG in September on a nonstop flight. Economy: $710. Premium Economy: $2222. Business: $8600. First: $9427. I promise you Premium is not 3x better than normal economy. I've tried it, it's 1.5x better at most. And business for 12x the price? Yeah, fuck that. PS: The calculation changes when you work for a Fortune 500 and they mandate/allow business tickets for flights longer than 6 hours. I imagine this is the real market for those tickets because those customers aren't paying with their own money and don't care.
      - SyneRyder 9y ago
        > But $4000 for business? I might do it for $2000. Interesting point. I've noticed that when I fly Qantas economy, before I fly they give me the option to bid for a Business class seat. Their economy seating & service has deteriorated so badly that I was tempted to just buy two economy seats, so I could have enough elbow room to use my laptop & get some work done... and sure enough, the minimum bid for Business is just a bit higher than buying a second economy seat. I'm sure the business class seats sell for higher than that, but they definitely aren't filling the seats at rack rate if they're sending out seat auctions.
      - rwmj 9y ago
        I've also noticed this large price difference between Economy and Premium Economy and don't understand it. If I could buy two Economy seats, not next to each other, but one in front of the other, and get rid of the front seat, then I'd be paying twice the price for almost the comfort of First Class. So why is Premium Economy so much more expensive for a fairly minor increase in space?
- kk_cz 9y ago
  A more apt comparison would be premium economy vs economy. From my limited experience - premium economy was always full even when there were places in economy.
  - marcins 9y ago
    A lot of frequent flyers with economy tickets can get upgrades to premium for points or by bidding at a fraction of the original difference. There’s usually openings in premium because of the premium passengers who have upgraded to business on points or by bidding...
  - rahimnathwani 9y ago
    That's not been my experience. Even on United (which gives Premium Economy upgrades every time if you have a certain status), there are often empty Premium Economy seats on busy flights.
Swizec 9y ago
> Air travel was once something to look forward to. I love flying! Best way to sit down and chill for a fee hours with a good book. The internet is too crappy to be useful, the seats too cramped to do real work, so I chill and I read. It's honestly very relaxing and I enjoy it. Yes I could do it without flying, but I find it hard to relax when I both have work to do and the ability to do it. Plus I'm short enough that I can fully extend my legs under the seat in front of me even in coach. That helps a lot.
- Yizahi 9y ago
  Except for 3 hours of standing in queues and carrying bags before departure and 1 hour after departure.
  - nopzor 9y ago
    That's a bit of an exaggeration don't you think? Who actually arrives at an airport 3 hours before departure?
    - adiabatty 9y ago
      Paranoid newbies like me.
buserror 9y ago
Same problems, same conclusion here - I hate being 'herded' exactly like cattle. Therefore I completely quit flying quite a while back now. I think I flew TWICE over the last 10 years, I don't even go on holidays oversea anymore because the security circus just sours the whole experience.
russellbeattie 9y ago
Also, there's the basic fact that most travelers have zero idea how much legroom they'll have (or not have in this case) until they're actually in their seat. It's bait and switch, and varies not just from airline to airline, but from plane to plane. If consumers actually knew they'd have no legroom, and then chose that option, that would be one thing, but they don't know. I'm 6'3", with long upper legs, so this is a serious issue for me. It's torturous to fly... literally. Either I don't fly, or pay extortionate sums to upgrade. Airlines should be forced to put the legroom space on the ticket and required to honor it. I bet things would be much different if consumers knew how badly they were getting fucked over in clear detail.
- sundvor 9y ago
  So with you. I'm not particularly wide, but I am 6.22 feet tall, with relatively long femurs. There's nothing I can do about that. I positively hate flying.
  - rayiner 9y ago
    Airline seat pitch never bothers me (5-9 and mostly torso) but in any event it's like $50-100 to upgrade to economy+. What's the grievance?
    - sundvor 9y ago
      There's no room for my knees, perhaps unless if I sit fully upright with zero slouch, and the person ahead isn't reclining their seat. Air travel is already expensive enough. I'm not in the US. Why should I need to pay extra for something I have no control over?
    - NickNameNick 9y ago
      That really depends on where you are. For me, exit row/prefered seating is a worthwhile upgrade at ~$100/per 12 hr leg, but there are only a few of those seats on each flight, and they're often unavailable. Premium is double the cost of economy, and business is double the cost of premium. Neither myself nor my employers have that kind of travel budget.
Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago
Also, many travelers don't get to choose at all. I work at a public university in Spain, and we have a regulation that we can only fly economy class. I think all the Spanish public sector does that, and probably many other European countries. I'm 1.97 tall and standard economy class seats are a torture to me. When I travel for personal reasons, I avoid planes whenever possible and otherwise, at any flight longer than one hour I buy at least an upgrade to a so-called "premium economy" seat or an emergency exit seat (which used to be free, but now they charge extra for them too). I could also do that for work flights out of my own pocket, but I find the concept of paying for work flights quite outrageous, apart from the fact that in some flights I would need to pay half my monthly salary for the upgrade. I'm hoping for regulation to impose a minimum seat pitch, it's the only thing that can save me from torturous flights in the short term (the other would be a local regulation that people over a certain dimensions can be paid a better ticket in public sector travel, but I think hell will freeze over before that, because austerity, etc.).
- golergka 9y ago
  > Also, many travelers don't get to choose at all. > When I travel for personal reasons, I avoid planes whenever possible and otherwise, at any flight longer than one hour I buy at least an upgrade to a so-called "premium economy" seat or an emergency exit seat (which used to be free, but now they charge extra for them too). This looks to me like you're actually making a choice.
  - Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago
    Yes, when I travel for personal reasons, as I said. But over 95% of my flights are for work and there I have no choice.
- lorenzhs 9y ago
  We have the same regulation in Germany, fyi. I'm not quite tall enough for it to be a major issue but it can be quite uncomfortable.
baby 9y ago
I will always prefer trains or bus. Even if they add up to 5 hours to the trip. Air travel stresses me too much. It's constant waiting, discomfort, commutting to and out of the airport, losing your rights at the security gates, etc...
- magic_beans 9y ago
  I prefer ground travel as well, it's just completely impractical when traveling coast to coast in the US, as I do frequently.
matt4077 9y ago
The statistics disagree. US air travel is at an all-time high: https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_01_40.html https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/pu...
- Retric 9y ago
  That's from cheap oil. Revenue, was higher in 2014 than 2015 or 2016. https://www.statista.com/statistics/197680/total-operating-revenues-in-us-airline-industry-since-2004/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/197680/total-operating-r... So, yes all things equal people fly more when flights costs significantly less. That does not the industry makes more profit from smaller seats.
- codegladiator 9y ago
  Maybe the IT industry can avoid air time. But not everyone can.
martinald 9y ago
Ryanair/easyjet are still growing stupendously fast in the EU, and Norwegian is bringing that model to transatlantic flights. People love it. Ryanair grew at 12% yoy last month and hit a 94% load factor. They've went from 0 to 120m+ pax in about 20 years. The thing is basically people are incredibly price conscious on booking flights. It's commoditized with the way people search for flights. Arguably this is because the industries IT systems are so old school that data such as seat pitch can't be easily syndicated so 3rd parties can show it, but I'm not sure if people would care enough.
- zip1234 9y ago
  Actually, being tall I really like Ryanair for the simple fact that their seats don't recline. Don't have to worry about somebody in front of me smashing my knees.
  - simonbarker87 9y ago
    I flew 4.5 hours on Jet2 last week and was so pleased when I realised the same. One of the most comfortable flights I've ever had and as far as leg room goes I had more than on a 12 hour flight to Singapore in June - the seat itself on the Singapore flight was more comfortable but having the person infronts head in my nose was not pleasant!
    - martinald 9y ago
      Amazingly I found Norwegians 787 to JFK one of the best (and cheapest) flights I'd taken recently. Also not using Heathrow is a huge plus for me, at least until crossrail opens.
      - nopzor 9y ago
        Agreed. Norwegian has a really fairly priced premium fare (not as nice as other intl bi clas, but terrific value). The 787s that they fly also make a big difference in comfort because of the higher humidity, lower noise, and better air quality.
eighthnate 9y ago
But airline stocks have skyrocketed in the past 5 year as have their profits. After the mergers of airlines, they realized that they have a captive market and don't have to care about service since there is only a limited number of choices for a large customer base. It's far more profitable to treat the customers are cattle who have no other option. Oil prices are down, but the fares are still high. The seats are small, service is terrible, airports are congested, TSA is intrusive and the experience is horrible, but what can we do? It's like internet service. When you have one or two large monopolies controlling an area, there is no incentive to treat customers well. Get mistreated by verizon go to comcast for more mistreatment. It's funny looking back when airlines were merging that the CEOs were saying how cost savings and synergies of merged airlines will trickle down to the customers in the form of lower airfare and better service. It was supposed to be a win-win for the companies and the customers.
- rdiddly 9y ago
  Yeah, and like all trickle-down theories, it turned out to be complete BS. Those of us who lived through Reagan aren't surprised. It's really a genius example of doublespeak. How do you sell the public and regulators on a plan that takes wealth or benefit from the 99% and gives it to the 1%? You tell them it does the exact opposite of what it actually does. You tell them "Hey man it's all part of the plan! After all, the rich can't give you tons of money" [your money] "unless they have it first, amirite bro? Just sign here and all the riches will be yours!" Then later when the plan "just happens to" result in an upward rush of wealth & benefit, you say "oops it didn't work." Oh, it worked.
- waqf 9y ago
  You can't blame TSA on the lack of competition, since it's effectively state mandated anyway. (Strictly speaking, airports aren't required to use TSA staff, but they're required to have the same intrusive security protocols.)
contingencies 9y ago
High speed rail in China.
rdiddly 9y ago
I stopped flying too, though I didn't even consider it a health issue. For me it was a combination of high-minded idealistic principles (about liberty/fascism, consumerism and so forth) and just basic kneejerk hedonism (i.e. noticing "this process produces displeasure and unhappiness"). So I cut it out of my life. No big whup. I'm sure they miss my little $1,000/year even less than your $170,000[1] but I'm better off for it. [1] ...which BTW they probably don't miss either, since it was probably replaced by 170 other willing consumers with $1,000 each, who haven't yet learned how unnecessary & shitty air travel is, or haven't yet acted on it.

rahimnathwani 9y ago

> I think the article's premise is wrong: > > Faced with a choice between discomfort and higher fares, most travelers choose discomfort" If that's the article's premise, then it's correct. Even though there are many more economy seats on each plane than their are business or first, the economy sections are still full. What does this tell us? That most people choose to pay less for an economy seat, rather than pay more for a comfy seat.

Swizec 9y ago
> That most people choose to pay less for an economy seat, rather than pay more for a comfy seat. No, it tells us that the cost is not wortg the extras for most people. Important distinction. On transatlantic flights the difference between economy and business can be as much as 4x. That's a lot.
- jakob223 9y ago
  Those are the same thing.
  - Swizec 9y ago
    Not at all. Let's say coach is $1600, premium economy is $1800, and business is $4000. I'm definitely going to buy premium economy, totally worth $200 because on transatlantic flights it's a lot better than coach. (I've done this before) But $4000 for business? I might do it for $2000. Law of diminishing returns and all that. I'll pay 20% more for something that's 50% better, but I won't pay 200% for something that's 60% better. Now let's look at some real prices. Say you wanted to fly from SFO to CDG in September on a nonstop flight. Economy: $710. Premium Economy: $2222. Business: $8600. First: $9427. I promise you Premium is not 3x better than normal economy. I've tried it, it's 1.5x better at most. And business for 12x the price? Yeah, fuck that. PS: The calculation changes when you work for a Fortune 500 and they mandate/allow business tickets for flights longer than 6 hours. I imagine this is the real market for those tickets because those customers aren't paying with their own money and don't care.
    - SyneRyder 9y ago
      > But $4000 for business? I might do it for $2000. Interesting point. I've noticed that when I fly Qantas economy, before I fly they give me the option to bid for a Business class seat. Their economy seating & service has deteriorated so badly that I was tempted to just buy two economy seats, so I could have enough elbow room to use my laptop & get some work done... and sure enough, the minimum bid for Business is just a bit higher than buying a second economy seat. I'm sure the business class seats sell for higher than that, but they definitely aren't filling the seats at rack rate if they're sending out seat auctions.
    - rwmj 9y ago
      I've also noticed this large price difference between Economy and Premium Economy and don't understand it. If I could buy two Economy seats, not next to each other, but one in front of the other, and get rid of the front seat, then I'd be paying twice the price for almost the comfort of First Class. So why is Premium Economy so much more expensive for a fairly minor increase in space?
kk_cz 9y ago
A more apt comparison would be premium economy vs economy. From my limited experience - premium economy was always full even when there were places in economy.
- marcins 9y ago
  A lot of frequent flyers with economy tickets can get upgrades to premium for points or by bidding at a fraction of the original difference. There’s usually openings in premium because of the premium passengers who have upgraded to business on points or by bidding...
- rahimnathwani 9y ago
  That's not been my experience. Even on United (which gives Premium Economy upgrades every time if you have a certain status), there are often empty Premium Economy seats on busy flights.

Swizec 9y ago

> Air travel was once something to look forward to. I love flying! Best way to sit down and chill for a fee hours with a good book. The internet is too crappy to be useful, the seats too cramped to do real work, so I chill and I read. It's honestly very relaxing and I enjoy it. Yes I could do it without flying, but I find it hard to relax when I both have work to do and the ability to do it. Plus I'm short enough that I can fully extend my legs under the seat in front of me even in coach. That helps a lot.

Yizahi 9y ago
Except for 3 hours of standing in queues and carrying bags before departure and 1 hour after departure.
- nopzor 9y ago
  That's a bit of an exaggeration don't you think? Who actually arrives at an airport 3 hours before departure?
  - adiabatty 9y ago
    Paranoid newbies like me.

buserror 9y ago

Same problems, same conclusion here - I hate being 'herded' exactly like cattle. Therefore I completely quit flying quite a while back now. I think I flew TWICE over the last 10 years, I don't even go on holidays oversea anymore because the security circus just sours the whole experience.

russellbeattie 9y ago

Also, there's the basic fact that most travelers have zero idea how much legroom they'll have (or not have in this case) until they're actually in their seat. It's bait and switch, and varies not just from airline to airline, but from plane to plane. If consumers actually knew they'd have no legroom, and then chose that option, that would be one thing, but they don't know. I'm 6'3", with long upper legs, so this is a serious issue for me. It's torturous to fly... literally. Either I don't fly, or pay extortionate sums to upgrade. Airlines should be forced to put the legroom space on the ticket and required to honor it. I bet things would be much different if consumers knew how badly they were getting fucked over in clear detail.

sundvor 9y ago
So with you. I'm not particularly wide, but I am 6.22 feet tall, with relatively long femurs. There's nothing I can do about that. I positively hate flying.
- rayiner 9y ago
  Airline seat pitch never bothers me (5-9 and mostly torso) but in any event it's like $50-100 to upgrade to economy+. What's the grievance?
  - sundvor 9y ago
    There's no room for my knees, perhaps unless if I sit fully upright with zero slouch, and the person ahead isn't reclining their seat. Air travel is already expensive enough. I'm not in the US. Why should I need to pay extra for something I have no control over?
  - NickNameNick 9y ago
    That really depends on where you are. For me, exit row/prefered seating is a worthwhile upgrade at ~$100/per 12 hr leg, but there are only a few of those seats on each flight, and they're often unavailable. Premium is double the cost of economy, and business is double the cost of premium. Neither myself nor my employers have that kind of travel budget.

Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago

Also, many travelers don't get to choose at all. I work at a public university in Spain, and we have a regulation that we can only fly economy class. I think all the Spanish public sector does that, and probably many other European countries. I'm 1.97 tall and standard economy class seats are a torture to me. When I travel for personal reasons, I avoid planes whenever possible and otherwise, at any flight longer than one hour I buy at least an upgrade to a so-called "premium economy" seat or an emergency exit seat (which used to be free, but now they charge extra for them too). I could also do that for work flights out of my own pocket, but I find the concept of paying for work flights quite outrageous, apart from the fact that in some flights I would need to pay half my monthly salary for the upgrade. I'm hoping for regulation to impose a minimum seat pitch, it's the only thing that can save me from torturous flights in the short term (the other would be a local regulation that people over a certain dimensions can be paid a better ticket in public sector travel, but I think hell will freeze over before that, because austerity, etc.).

golergka 9y ago
> Also, many travelers don't get to choose at all. > When I travel for personal reasons, I avoid planes whenever possible and otherwise, at any flight longer than one hour I buy at least an upgrade to a so-called "premium economy" seat or an emergency exit seat (which used to be free, but now they charge extra for them too). This looks to me like you're actually making a choice.
- Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago
  Yes, when I travel for personal reasons, as I said. But over 95% of my flights are for work and there I have no choice.
lorenzhs 9y ago
We have the same regulation in Germany, fyi. I'm not quite tall enough for it to be a major issue but it can be quite uncomfortable.

baby 9y ago

I will always prefer trains or bus. Even if they add up to 5 hours to the trip. Air travel stresses me too much. It's constant waiting, discomfort, commutting to and out of the airport, losing your rights at the security gates, etc...

magic_beans 9y ago
I prefer ground travel as well, it's just completely impractical when traveling coast to coast in the US, as I do frequently.

matt4077 9y ago

The statistics disagree. US air travel is at an all-time high: https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_01_40.html https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/pu...

Retric 9y ago
That's from cheap oil. Revenue, was higher in 2014 than 2015 or 2016. https://www.statista.com/statistics/197680/total-operating-revenues-in-us-airline-industry-since-2004/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/197680/total-operating-r... So, yes all things equal people fly more when flights costs significantly less. That does not the industry makes more profit from smaller seats.
codegladiator 9y ago
Maybe the IT industry can avoid air time. But not everyone can.

martinald 9y ago

Ryanair/easyjet are still growing stupendously fast in the EU, and Norwegian is bringing that model to transatlantic flights. People love it. Ryanair grew at 12% yoy last month and hit a 94% load factor. They've went from 0 to 120m+ pax in about 20 years. The thing is basically people are incredibly price conscious on booking flights. It's commoditized with the way people search for flights. Arguably this is because the industries IT systems are so old school that data such as seat pitch can't be easily syndicated so 3rd parties can show it, but I'm not sure if people would care enough.

zip1234 9y ago
Actually, being tall I really like Ryanair for the simple fact that their seats don't recline. Don't have to worry about somebody in front of me smashing my knees.
- simonbarker87 9y ago
  I flew 4.5 hours on Jet2 last week and was so pleased when I realised the same. One of the most comfortable flights I've ever had and as far as leg room goes I had more than on a 12 hour flight to Singapore in June - the seat itself on the Singapore flight was more comfortable but having the person infronts head in my nose was not pleasant!
  - martinald 9y ago
    Amazingly I found Norwegians 787 to JFK one of the best (and cheapest) flights I'd taken recently. Also not using Heathrow is a huge plus for me, at least until crossrail opens.
    - nopzor 9y ago
      Agreed. Norwegian has a really fairly priced premium fare (not as nice as other intl bi clas, but terrific value). The 787s that they fly also make a big difference in comfort because of the higher humidity, lower noise, and better air quality.

eighthnate 9y ago

But airline stocks have skyrocketed in the past 5 year as have their profits. After the mergers of airlines, they realized that they have a captive market and don't have to care about service since there is only a limited number of choices for a large customer base. It's far more profitable to treat the customers are cattle who have no other option. Oil prices are down, but the fares are still high. The seats are small, service is terrible, airports are congested, TSA is intrusive and the experience is horrible, but what can we do? It's like internet service. When you have one or two large monopolies controlling an area, there is no incentive to treat customers well. Get mistreated by verizon go to comcast for more mistreatment. It's funny looking back when airlines were merging that the CEOs were saying how cost savings and synergies of merged airlines will trickle down to the customers in the form of lower airfare and better service. It was supposed to be a win-win for the companies and the customers.

rdiddly 9y ago
Yeah, and like all trickle-down theories, it turned out to be complete BS. Those of us who lived through Reagan aren't surprised. It's really a genius example of doublespeak. How do you sell the public and regulators on a plan that takes wealth or benefit from the 99% and gives it to the 1%? You tell them it does the exact opposite of what it actually does. You tell them "Hey man it's all part of the plan! After all, the rich can't give you tons of money" [your money] "unless they have it first, amirite bro? Just sign here and all the riches will be yours!" Then later when the plan "just happens to" result in an upward rush of wealth & benefit, you say "oops it didn't work." Oh, it worked.
waqf 9y ago
You can't blame TSA on the lack of competition, since it's effectively state mandated anyway. (Strictly speaking, airports aren't required to use TSA staff, but they're required to have the same intrusive security protocols.)

contingencies 9y ago

High speed rail in China.

rdiddly 9y ago

I stopped flying too, though I didn't even consider it a health issue. For me it was a combination of high-minded idealistic principles (about liberty/fascism, consumerism and so forth) and just basic kneejerk hedonism (i.e. noticing "this process produces displeasure and unhappiness"). So I cut it out of my life. No big whup. I'm sure they miss my little $1,000/year even less than your $170,000[1] but I'm better off for it. [1] ...which BTW they probably don't miss either, since it was probably replaced by 170 other willing consumers with $1,000 each, who haven't yet learned how unnecessary & shitty air travel is, or haven't yet acted on it.