14 ms·

> - And physical keyboards. Something for SSH'ing with. There is no market for this product. Nobody wants it except a tiny fraction of the market who work in I

by feld 9y ago

> - And physical keyboards. Something for SSH'ing with. There is no market for this product. Nobody wants it except a tiny fraction of the market who work in IT.

fiatjaf 9y ago
Which is the people who make software for the rest of the users, so they'll buy this phone and write software for it, making it desirable for others.
- soapdog 9y ago
  As someone who has numerous Palm/HP devices running webOS and BB10 based Blackberry Passport and is a complete sucker for hardware keyboards, let me say that this assumption is false. People don't care about physical keyboards, it is not worthy the factory/design/maintenance costs. I still love them but I understand why vendors are not investing them anymore. If "people who make software" could really influence the market, Linux dominance would have happened between the 90s and 00s.
  - kbenson 9y ago
    Not to mention, why take the reliability gains we've made with these devices, likely because of the massive reduction in moving parts, and erase all that with a keyboard. An accessory seems like the right way to do this for those that really need it, and those accessories exist.
  - fasquoika 9y ago
    >If "people who make software" could really influence the market, Linux dominance would have happened between the 90s and 00s. Er, the vast majority of computers run linux
fiatjaf 9y ago
Apparently you should give that advice to Google Chrome, which spends hundreds of thousands of money into making their developer tools better, a feature only a tiny fraction of their users want.
- SamBam 9y ago
  Google has a vested experience in improving the internet for all, because the more man-hours that are spent online, the more people are interacting with Google marketing and products. To that end, they've always been very vested in improving web development for everyone.
- objclxt 9y ago
  Repeat after me: "Hardware is not software". Software is far, far, cheaper than hardware. Building bespoke hardware for a tiny fraction of your customer base is insanely expensive, because the larger players have sewn up all the component orders. Once you build your hardware you are stuck with it forever. There is no "Day 1" patch for hardware. If you needed further evidence you only have to look at the number of hardware Kickstarter projects that fail miserably because they grossly underestimated the cost and complexity of actually making a physical thing.
- smt88 9y ago
  This is not a good analogy. 1) Google is an advertising company. They're not good at making products. If they were, they'd have a lot more profit come from places other than AdSense. They have literally dozens of products, and very few of them impact the bottom line. Clearly they do need to figure out what people want. 2) Dev Tools in Chrome is a way to get developers to target Chrome. This means Chrome is going to work better when browsing than other browsers. 3) Google has so much engineering bandwidth that Dev Tools is a tiny investment. It was useful enough (at the time it was released) to keep it entirely internal, honestly. Letting the public use it was just gravy. 4) Web developers are far, far more common than people who need to use SSH from a phone. Not all developers use SSH and not all developers have a reason to use it from a phone.
- Splines 9y ago
  Chrome developer tools are pay-for-play. Aside from download size, users are not impacted by the existence of the developer tools. Users who don't want a physical keyboard can't exactly remove it.
pc86 9y ago
And a big piece of that market doesn't even want it.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
signal11 9y ago
For the few times I've needed it, I've found an iPhone + Prompt SSH Client + Bluetooth Keyboard to be pretty effective. I do have a Chromebook these days as a "travel device", but in a pinch an iPhone will work. iPads also work great for emergency access to Windows desktops.
jdietrich 9y ago
Blackberry make a couple of Android handsets with physical keyboards.
- as1mov 9y ago
  KeyOne seems to be selling well, I hope they release some cheap PKB phones in the future. Even if it has low-end specs, if it is less than $300, I'd buy one in a heartbeat.
as1mov 9y ago
Not really. Manufacturers just stopped making phones with PKB because since Apple wasn't making them, they weren't worth it. It hard to estimate the demand for PKB phones when no one is making them. I'd buy one in heartbeat if one launched with low-mid end specs and less than $400. We've constantly chosen form over functionality. Larger sized phones, fragile build materials(glass over plastic), lesser battery just so the phone can be thinner. The keyboard was given up to make room for a bigger screen and thinner body, and now writing anything more a few sentences on a phone is a pain in the ass. Atleast in the era of dumb phones, for all the weird shit (Nokia's taco phone) that came out that time, at least the phones were distinct, you could tell them apart just by looking at them. Now they are all the same generic rectangular glass slabs that cater's to single demographic who want large screens for media consumption. What if you are not in that demographic? Well, tough luck. I know am in the minority and it's not really Apple's fault that everyone decided to ape them, but a part of me wishes we hadn't given up the variety just to pander to the largest common denominator, even a little variation among phones would be a welcome change.
- epicide 9y ago
  Decent specs, niche audience, cheap. Pick two.
  - jancsika 9y ago
    That applies for niche audience laptops-- for example the gluglug laptop serves a small free-software fanbase but doesn't have decent specs. But for cellphones, lots of values of "niche audience" end up with, "pick zero." Here are some examples: 1. Hook up a keyboard to ssh into the device. 2. Hardware switch to turn off the baseband OS. 3. Software toggle to turn off the baseband OS. 4. Sandboxed baseband OS that isn't proof-of-concept or impossible to buy and use in the U.S. 5. Free software baseband OS. 6. Open source "tivo-ized" baseband OS. I.e., user can read the source but cannot run modified version. 7. Just glue together a damned RPI with a baseband OS and ship it to me in working order. Those are just the niches that interest me. Only #8 looks feasible in the near future and its apparently still in the planning stage: https://www.crowdsupply.com/arsenijs/zerophone https://www.crowdsupply.com/arsenijs/zerophone So I think your "niche audience" needs an asterisk that says, "most niches not yet supported."
framebit 9y ago
Blind, partially sighted, and arthritic folks can all benefit from physical keyboards. Blind and partially sighted might be a smaller niche, but older folks with arthritic hands are a huge population. It's hard to be exact on a virtual keyboard when your eyes and fingers don't work the same as younger, able-bodied person.
- throwaway613834 9y ago
  Does "they can all benefit" mean "I think they would benefit" or does it mean "they have actually been demanding this due to the benefit"?
- jads 9y ago
  but one could also make the argument that a tiny, cramped, physical QWERTY keyboard is not going to be of benefit to elderly users with arthritis?
- feld 9y ago
  No, they benefit from the the magnifying glass feature, VoiceOver, and the ability to do voice to text input
afandian 9y ago
I just can't type on screens. I have tried so many times. My current phone is a Blackberry Passport, previous one was an HTC Desire Z, and my next one (fingers crossed) will be this: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gemini-pda-android-linux-keyboard-mobile-device-phone#/ https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gemini-pda-android-linux-... I'd like to ssh sometimes, but mostly I want to send text and emails like everyone else. Shame that few companies have the guts to break the monoculture. It is vaguely ridiculous that most phones look identical.
- jgtrosh 9y ago
  Have you tried swiping keyboards ? I don't think it's for everyone, there's only a few that do it well, and afaik none open-source which does it all (though I believe the functionality is in development for ASK); however I find that the GBoard with swiping and multiple languages is a very decent way to type text for most usage. If you have a heavy use of the symbols we find on common keyboards, sure a physical keyboard might be better... But then once again good luck if it's not the layout of your heart. I don't there's an easy solution for these glass slabs but I think that software keyboards have gone quite a decent way from what they were 4 or 5 years ago.
  - qu4z-2 9y ago
    In my experience swiping keyboards don't really work for unix command strings. Which reminds me, I should buy a Passport. They're probably cheapish now...
- georgespencer 9y ago
  > Shame that few companies have the guts to break the monoculture. It is vaguely ridiculous that most phones look identical. You are describing cars. There is no market for cars which are driven with more complex mechanisms than steering wheels. The world has percolated around the optimal solution, and it is a touch screen.
  - onli 9y ago
    It's not either or. The optimal solution is a phone that has a touchscreen and a keyboard. I had a HP Veer, and that one was way better for typing than all smartphones I ever had. Touchscreens suck for typing. A smooth glass surface without haptic feedback can never be an optimal solution for that. It is only better for pure media consumption, if having only a touchscreen means having a bigger display.
bdcravens 9y ago
My wife preferred physical keyboards, but like many, accepted the iPhone despite it's lack thereof.
lunchables 9y ago
I think there are still quite a few business professionals who miss their Blackberrys. But I agree, still a very small market. Personally I'd love to have a physical keyboard. Phones are big enough know that we could have a full size keyboard and still have more display than we had on an iPhone 4.

by feld 9y ago

> - And physical keyboards. Something for SSH'ing with. There is no market for this product. Nobody wants it except a tiny fraction of the market who work in IT.

fiatjaf 9y ago

Which is the people who make software for the rest of the users, so they'll buy this phone and write software for it, making it desirable for others.

soapdog 9y ago
As someone who has numerous Palm/HP devices running webOS and BB10 based Blackberry Passport and is a complete sucker for hardware keyboards, let me say that this assumption is false. People don't care about physical keyboards, it is not worthy the factory/design/maintenance costs. I still love them but I understand why vendors are not investing them anymore. If "people who make software" could really influence the market, Linux dominance would have happened between the 90s and 00s.
- kbenson 9y ago
  Not to mention, why take the reliability gains we've made with these devices, likely because of the massive reduction in moving parts, and erase all that with a keyboard. An accessory seems like the right way to do this for those that really need it, and those accessories exist.
- fasquoika 9y ago
  >If "people who make software" could really influence the market, Linux dominance would have happened between the 90s and 00s. Er, the vast majority of computers run linux

fiatjaf 9y ago

Apparently you should give that advice to Google Chrome, which spends hundreds of thousands of money into making their developer tools better, a feature only a tiny fraction of their users want.

SamBam 9y ago
Google has a vested experience in improving the internet for all, because the more man-hours that are spent online, the more people are interacting with Google marketing and products. To that end, they've always been very vested in improving web development for everyone.
objclxt 9y ago
Repeat after me: "Hardware is not software". Software is far, far, cheaper than hardware. Building bespoke hardware for a tiny fraction of your customer base is insanely expensive, because the larger players have sewn up all the component orders. Once you build your hardware you are stuck with it forever. There is no "Day 1" patch for hardware. If you needed further evidence you only have to look at the number of hardware Kickstarter projects that fail miserably because they grossly underestimated the cost and complexity of actually making a physical thing.
smt88 9y ago
This is not a good analogy. 1) Google is an advertising company. They're not good at making products. If they were, they'd have a lot more profit come from places other than AdSense. They have literally dozens of products, and very few of them impact the bottom line. Clearly they do need to figure out what people want. 2) Dev Tools in Chrome is a way to get developers to target Chrome. This means Chrome is going to work better when browsing than other browsers. 3) Google has so much engineering bandwidth that Dev Tools is a tiny investment. It was useful enough (at the time it was released) to keep it entirely internal, honestly. Letting the public use it was just gravy. 4) Web developers are far, far more common than people who need to use SSH from a phone. Not all developers use SSH and not all developers have a reason to use it from a phone.
Splines 9y ago
Chrome developer tools are pay-for-play. Aside from download size, users are not impacted by the existence of the developer tools. Users who don't want a physical keyboard can't exactly remove it.

pc86 9y ago

And a big piece of that market doesn't even want it.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

signal11 9y ago

For the few times I've needed it, I've found an iPhone + Prompt SSH Client + Bluetooth Keyboard to be pretty effective. I do have a Chromebook these days as a "travel device", but in a pinch an iPhone will work. iPads also work great for emergency access to Windows desktops.

jdietrich 9y ago

Blackberry make a couple of Android handsets with physical keyboards.

as1mov 9y ago
KeyOne seems to be selling well, I hope they release some cheap PKB phones in the future. Even if it has low-end specs, if it is less than $300, I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

as1mov 9y ago

Not really. Manufacturers just stopped making phones with PKB because since Apple wasn't making them, they weren't worth it. It hard to estimate the demand for PKB phones when no one is making them. I'd buy one in heartbeat if one launched with low-mid end specs and less than $400. We've constantly chosen form over functionality. Larger sized phones, fragile build materials(glass over plastic), lesser battery just so the phone can be thinner. The keyboard was given up to make room for a bigger screen and thinner body, and now writing anything more a few sentences on a phone is a pain in the ass. Atleast in the era of dumb phones, for all the weird shit (Nokia's taco phone) that came out that time, at least the phones were distinct, you could tell them apart just by looking at them. Now they are all the same generic rectangular glass slabs that cater's to single demographic who want large screens for media consumption. What if you are not in that demographic? Well, tough luck. I know am in the minority and it's not really Apple's fault that everyone decided to ape them, but a part of me wishes we hadn't given up the variety just to pander to the largest common denominator, even a little variation among phones would be a welcome change.

epicide 9y ago
Decent specs, niche audience, cheap. Pick two.
- jancsika 9y ago
  That applies for niche audience laptops-- for example the gluglug laptop serves a small free-software fanbase but doesn't have decent specs. But for cellphones, lots of values of "niche audience" end up with, "pick zero." Here are some examples: 1. Hook up a keyboard to ssh into the device. 2. Hardware switch to turn off the baseband OS. 3. Software toggle to turn off the baseband OS. 4. Sandboxed baseband OS that isn't proof-of-concept or impossible to buy and use in the U.S. 5. Free software baseband OS. 6. Open source "tivo-ized" baseband OS. I.e., user can read the source but cannot run modified version. 7. Just glue together a damned RPI with a baseband OS and ship it to me in working order. Those are just the niches that interest me. Only #8 looks feasible in the near future and its apparently still in the planning stage: https://www.crowdsupply.com/arsenijs/zerophone https://www.crowdsupply.com/arsenijs/zerophone So I think your "niche audience" needs an asterisk that says, "most niches not yet supported."

framebit 9y ago

Blind, partially sighted, and arthritic folks can all benefit from physical keyboards. Blind and partially sighted might be a smaller niche, but older folks with arthritic hands are a huge population. It's hard to be exact on a virtual keyboard when your eyes and fingers don't work the same as younger, able-bodied person.

throwaway613834 9y ago
Does "they can all benefit" mean "I think they would benefit" or does it mean "they have actually been demanding this due to the benefit"?
jads 9y ago
but one could also make the argument that a tiny, cramped, physical QWERTY keyboard is not going to be of benefit to elderly users with arthritis?
feld 9y ago
No, they benefit from the the magnifying glass feature, VoiceOver, and the ability to do voice to text input

afandian 9y ago

I just can't type on screens. I have tried so many times. My current phone is a Blackberry Passport, previous one was an HTC Desire Z, and my next one (fingers crossed) will be this: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gemini-pda-android-linux-keyboard-mobile-device-phone#/ https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gemini-pda-android-linux-... I'd like to ssh sometimes, but mostly I want to send text and emails like everyone else. Shame that few companies have the guts to break the monoculture. It is vaguely ridiculous that most phones look identical.

jgtrosh 9y ago
Have you tried swiping keyboards ? I don't think it's for everyone, there's only a few that do it well, and afaik none open-source which does it all (though I believe the functionality is in development for ASK); however I find that the GBoard with swiping and multiple languages is a very decent way to type text for most usage. If you have a heavy use of the symbols we find on common keyboards, sure a physical keyboard might be better... But then once again good luck if it's not the layout of your heart. I don't there's an easy solution for these glass slabs but I think that software keyboards have gone quite a decent way from what they were 4 or 5 years ago.
- qu4z-2 9y ago
  In my experience swiping keyboards don't really work for unix command strings. Which reminds me, I should buy a Passport. They're probably cheapish now...
georgespencer 9y ago
> Shame that few companies have the guts to break the monoculture. It is vaguely ridiculous that most phones look identical. You are describing cars. There is no market for cars which are driven with more complex mechanisms than steering wheels. The world has percolated around the optimal solution, and it is a touch screen.
- onli 9y ago
  It's not either or. The optimal solution is a phone that has a touchscreen and a keyboard. I had a HP Veer, and that one was way better for typing than all smartphones I ever had. Touchscreens suck for typing. A smooth glass surface without haptic feedback can never be an optimal solution for that. It is only better for pure media consumption, if having only a touchscreen means having a bigger display.

bdcravens 9y ago

My wife preferred physical keyboards, but like many, accepted the iPhone despite it's lack thereof.

lunchables 9y ago

I think there are still quite a few business professionals who miss their Blackberrys. But I agree, still a very small market. Personally I'd love to have a physical keyboard. Phones are big enough know that we could have a full size keyboard and still have more display than we had on an iPhone 4.