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Yet somehow, programming is considered a woman's job throughout vast swathes of India. China is much closer to parity in engineering as well. You're ignoring t

Yet somehow, programming is considered a woman's job throughout vast swathes of India. China is much closer to parity in engineering as well. You're ignoring that girls are socialized to think they're bad at math, science, etc. Boys are told the opposite and are pushed in this direction. I certainly was. My parents were drilling me on math by age five.

Const-me 9y ago
In all developed countries, only 10-25% of engineers are female. An American society in is very different from that of Australia, Sweden, Greece or Germany. Not sure why, but I know one possible explanation. In developing countries, people are pressured by their basic needs. An engineering job generally pays well. People in such countries are less likely to do what they want and more likely to do what pays well, so gender ratio in engineering is close to 50/50. In developed countries, people are guaranteed to survive even without a profession or job. Less financial pressure, more freedom of choice, less women in engineering.
- ptaipale 9y ago
  A very good point. Women don't go to STEM jobs because they get sufficient compensation in work that they like more, on the average. And it's easier to do what other women do.
  - Const-me 9y ago
    > And it's easier to do what other women do. That factor hasn’t stopped women from becoming e.g. doctors and lawyers. Just 50 years ago, very few women did that, because discrimination (e.g. for healthcare in America, gender-based discrimination was only banned in 1975) and culture norms. But now it’s pretty close to 50/50 gender ratio in these areas (females are 47.3% of law students in 2007, 46.7% of medical students in 2013).
    - ptaipale 9y ago
      Yes, we can conclude that structural discrimination of women in law and medical students has largely gone away. Why does anyone think that STEM subjects would somehow retained such discrimination? I consider it more likely that now women do what they want to do. And that is in many ways a good thing.
- mpweiher 9y ago
  We have a winner! Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech? "Most of the girls we talked to from other countries had a slightly playful approach to Stem, whereas in Russia, even the very youngest were extremely focused on the fact that their future employment opportunities were more likely to be rooted in Stem subjects." http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39579321 http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39579321
  - varjag 9y ago
    Russian (and a good deal of other Eastern European) tech scene is certainly not less discriminatory than the Western by any imaginable metric.
- deepGem 9y ago
  Well doesn't this sort of support Damore's hypothesis ? Some of the smartest girls I know went into marketing, purely because they just loved that field. Somehow to them sitting in an office in front of a computer all day didn't seem that appealing. Is it safe to infer that, in th developed world, given a career choice women have a propensity to not choose tech ?
  - clevergadget 9y ago
    What part of marketing isn't sitting in front of a computer all day? :D
  - the_af 9y ago
    On the contrary, it sort of refutes Damore's hypothesis: the difference is not inherent but merely societal, because we observe that, when encouraged, women can succeed at engineering as much as men. In other words, if true, we should strive to understand why fewer women choose tech in developed countries and fix it, not automatically assume it's because they are inherently less interested.
    - spdionis 9y ago
      And by "encouraged" you mean "highly incentivized by economical reasons" instead of "encouraged to like working in tech"?
      - the_af 9y ago
        That's one kind of encouragement, sure, but not the only one. I'm not even arguing money is necessarily the best reason. All I need to show is a refutation of the notion that there is some kind of biological/inherent impediment for women to be successful at tech. PS: for that matter, my personal experience -- coming from a family of scientists who aren't rich, and which includes my mom -- is that there are other factors at play beyond money. Note I don't live in the US.
    - randomdata 9y ago
      Succeeding at engineering is not the same as having the desire to do engineering. If it takes encouragement to push women into the field, that says the desire is not there. I am going to go further and suggest that software engineering is just not that desirable of a career, no matter who you are. Given that compensation is a function of supply and demand, and this career is fairly well compensated, the lack of people – both male and female – entering the career path would suggest is not the top choice of anyone. What appears to be happening is that some men are willing to put up with an undesirable career because of the higher than average compensation, while women are less wooed by those monetary factors. The only 'fix' here is to drive home the importance of doing unhappy careers for big money towards the female population. But do we really want to do that? That does not really seem like a great goal. There is more to life than money.
- the_af 9y ago
  But this possible explanation, even if true (which I don't know), is still a refutation of Damore's argument: there is no biological or inherent basis for having fewer women in engineering. If women, when they see the need (e.g. for economic reasons) or are otherwise encouraged, can successfully tackle engineering fields, then surely the difference is societal and not inherent, unlike what Damore seemed to claim?
  - alexvy86 9y ago
    This is how I read the idea in the comment you replied to: external factors (namely, needing money to satisfy even the most basic life needs), not biological ones, are the ones that drive some places to have a more evenly split men/women ratio. When the environment is "safe" enough that you don't need to worry about how you're going to survive, that's when the biological predispositions come to light, and you get women going to what they inherently prefer, and move away from the things they don't. I don't think the point is that women can't successfully tackle engineering, they can. But that doesn't mean that they have a predisposition towards it. If you encourage (or even force) someone into a particular profession, they might excel at it, but that doesn't imply that they would've picked it on their own.
- deorder 9y ago
  I remember this was also the conclusion of the documentary "Hjernevask". I linked to it yesterday at: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15014895 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15014895 Men and women living in richer and mostly western countries have the luxury to choose the jobs they are attracted to even if that attraction is to some extent based on biological factors and not societal or economic factors.
oh_sigh 9y ago
And ~50% of software developers in Zimbabwe are women. Does Zimbabwe have better or worse gender equality than the USA or other Westernized nations?
josteink 9y ago
> You're ignoring that girls are socialized to think they're bad at math, science That's a bold claim with zero sources. Consider this a "citation needed".
- GrantSolar 9y ago
  I personally wouldn't go as far with that claim, but young girls are certainly discouraged from pursuing STEM careers either actively or unintentionally (representation/role models, toys etc.) [1] http://www.ibtimes.com/girls-stem-parent-stereotypes-may-discourage-daughters-science-technology-engineering-1895719 http://www.ibtimes.com/girls-stem-parent-stereotypes-may-dis... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_role#Gender_stereotypes_and_issues_in_the_workplace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_role#Gender_stereotypes...
  - belorn 9y ago
    What I (and I suspect others) want to see is proof of active discouragement, rather than the lack of encouragement. The link between wealth, marriage suitability and social status is well observed for men, and in stereotypical pattern boys are pushed towards professions which maximize the potential for high income. Since society do not measure the value for women on how much money they bring, it follows that girls are not pushed with the same fever towards high paying jobs except if local situation causes families to do so by necessity (which is one explanation why certain countries have higher ratio of women in typical high paying profession). I have the theory that if you want to get equal amount of young girls and young boys in STEM careers you need to remove focus on how such choice can lead towards high income. It would not increase the encouragement for girls, but fewer boys would be pushed in that direction and as a result the difference between the sexes would decrease.
slavak 9y ago
> You're ignoring that girls are socialized to think they're bad at math, science, etc. And yet over 40% of graduates majoring in math and statistics are women. How does this sit with your explanation of social conditioning? http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/14/percentage-of-bachelors-degrees-conferred-to-women-by-major-1970-2012/ http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/14/percentage-of-bachelor...
jooke 9y ago
The fact that in India and China (very different cultures) there are a lot of female programmers doesn't say anything about cultural influences in the West. Being encouraged to do maths at age 5 is not the norm (regardless of gender).
ThomPete 9y ago
But that doesn't necessarily mean what you think. In the west women have more choice. So why do they choose not to do technology once they are free to choose what they want.
naasking 9y ago
> Yet somehow, programming is considered a woman's job throughout vast swathes of India. China is much closer to parity in engineering as well. More women choose engineering when they have fewer career choices, because they take the freedoms they can get; Iran also has a high ratio of female engineers. In virtually all countries where women are free to choose any career, they largely don't choose engineering.

Const-me 9y ago

In all developed countries, only 10-25% of engineers are female. An American society in is very different from that of Australia, Sweden, Greece or Germany. Not sure why, but I know one possible explanation. In developing countries, people are pressured by their basic needs. An engineering job generally pays well. People in such countries are less likely to do what they want and more likely to do what pays well, so gender ratio in engineering is close to 50/50. In developed countries, people are guaranteed to survive even without a profession or job. Less financial pressure, more freedom of choice, less women in engineering.

ptaipale 9y ago
A very good point. Women don't go to STEM jobs because they get sufficient compensation in work that they like more, on the average. And it's easier to do what other women do.
- Const-me 9y ago
  > And it's easier to do what other women do. That factor hasn’t stopped women from becoming e.g. doctors and lawyers. Just 50 years ago, very few women did that, because discrimination (e.g. for healthcare in America, gender-based discrimination was only banned in 1975) and culture norms. But now it’s pretty close to 50/50 gender ratio in these areas (females are 47.3% of law students in 2007, 46.7% of medical students in 2013).
  - ptaipale 9y ago
    Yes, we can conclude that structural discrimination of women in law and medical students has largely gone away. Why does anyone think that STEM subjects would somehow retained such discrimination? I consider it more likely that now women do what they want to do. And that is in many ways a good thing.
mpweiher 9y ago
We have a winner! Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech? "Most of the girls we talked to from other countries had a slightly playful approach to Stem, whereas in Russia, even the very youngest were extremely focused on the fact that their future employment opportunities were more likely to be rooted in Stem subjects." http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39579321 http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39579321
- varjag 9y ago
  Russian (and a good deal of other Eastern European) tech scene is certainly not less discriminatory than the Western by any imaginable metric.
deepGem 9y ago
Well doesn't this sort of support Damore's hypothesis ? Some of the smartest girls I know went into marketing, purely because they just loved that field. Somehow to them sitting in an office in front of a computer all day didn't seem that appealing. Is it safe to infer that, in th developed world, given a career choice women have a propensity to not choose tech ?
- clevergadget 9y ago
  What part of marketing isn't sitting in front of a computer all day? :D
- the_af 9y ago
  On the contrary, it sort of refutes Damore's hypothesis: the difference is not inherent but merely societal, because we observe that, when encouraged, women can succeed at engineering as much as men. In other words, if true, we should strive to understand why fewer women choose tech in developed countries and fix it, not automatically assume it's because they are inherently less interested.
  - spdionis 9y ago
    And by "encouraged" you mean "highly incentivized by economical reasons" instead of "encouraged to like working in tech"?
    - the_af 9y ago
      That's one kind of encouragement, sure, but not the only one. I'm not even arguing money is necessarily the best reason. All I need to show is a refutation of the notion that there is some kind of biological/inherent impediment for women to be successful at tech. PS: for that matter, my personal experience -- coming from a family of scientists who aren't rich, and which includes my mom -- is that there are other factors at play beyond money. Note I don't live in the US.
  - randomdata 9y ago
    Succeeding at engineering is not the same as having the desire to do engineering. If it takes encouragement to push women into the field, that says the desire is not there. I am going to go further and suggest that software engineering is just not that desirable of a career, no matter who you are. Given that compensation is a function of supply and demand, and this career is fairly well compensated, the lack of people – both male and female – entering the career path would suggest is not the top choice of anyone. What appears to be happening is that some men are willing to put up with an undesirable career because of the higher than average compensation, while women are less wooed by those monetary factors. The only 'fix' here is to drive home the importance of doing unhappy careers for big money towards the female population. But do we really want to do that? That does not really seem like a great goal. There is more to life than money.
the_af 9y ago
But this possible explanation, even if true (which I don't know), is still a refutation of Damore's argument: there is no biological or inherent basis for having fewer women in engineering. If women, when they see the need (e.g. for economic reasons) or are otherwise encouraged, can successfully tackle engineering fields, then surely the difference is societal and not inherent, unlike what Damore seemed to claim?
- alexvy86 9y ago
  This is how I read the idea in the comment you replied to: external factors (namely, needing money to satisfy even the most basic life needs), not biological ones, are the ones that drive some places to have a more evenly split men/women ratio. When the environment is "safe" enough that you don't need to worry about how you're going to survive, that's when the biological predispositions come to light, and you get women going to what they inherently prefer, and move away from the things they don't. I don't think the point is that women can't successfully tackle engineering, they can. But that doesn't mean that they have a predisposition towards it. If you encourage (or even force) someone into a particular profession, they might excel at it, but that doesn't imply that they would've picked it on their own.
deorder 9y ago
I remember this was also the conclusion of the documentary "Hjernevask". I linked to it yesterday at: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15014895 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15014895 Men and women living in richer and mostly western countries have the luxury to choose the jobs they are attracted to even if that attraction is to some extent based on biological factors and not societal or economic factors.

oh_sigh 9y ago

And ~50% of software developers in Zimbabwe are women. Does Zimbabwe have better or worse gender equality than the USA or other Westernized nations?

josteink 9y ago

> You're ignoring that girls are socialized to think they're bad at math, science That's a bold claim with zero sources. Consider this a "citation needed".

GrantSolar 9y ago
I personally wouldn't go as far with that claim, but young girls are certainly discouraged from pursuing STEM careers either actively or unintentionally (representation/role models, toys etc.) [1] http://www.ibtimes.com/girls-stem-parent-stereotypes-may-discourage-daughters-science-technology-engineering-1895719 http://www.ibtimes.com/girls-stem-parent-stereotypes-may-dis... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_role#Gender_stereotypes_and_issues_in_the_workplace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_role#Gender_stereotypes...
- belorn 9y ago
  What I (and I suspect others) want to see is proof of active discouragement, rather than the lack of encouragement. The link between wealth, marriage suitability and social status is well observed for men, and in stereotypical pattern boys are pushed towards professions which maximize the potential for high income. Since society do not measure the value for women on how much money they bring, it follows that girls are not pushed with the same fever towards high paying jobs except if local situation causes families to do so by necessity (which is one explanation why certain countries have higher ratio of women in typical high paying profession). I have the theory that if you want to get equal amount of young girls and young boys in STEM careers you need to remove focus on how such choice can lead towards high income. It would not increase the encouragement for girls, but fewer boys would be pushed in that direction and as a result the difference between the sexes would decrease.

slavak 9y ago

> You're ignoring that girls are socialized to think they're bad at math, science, etc. And yet over 40% of graduates majoring in math and statistics are women. How does this sit with your explanation of social conditioning? http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/14/percentage-of-bachelors-degrees-conferred-to-women-by-major-1970-2012/ http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/14/percentage-of-bachelor...

jooke 9y ago

The fact that in India and China (very different cultures) there are a lot of female programmers doesn't say anything about cultural influences in the West. Being encouraged to do maths at age 5 is not the norm (regardless of gender).

ThomPete 9y ago

But that doesn't necessarily mean what you think. In the west women have more choice. So why do they choose not to do technology once they are free to choose what they want.

naasking 9y ago

> Yet somehow, programming is considered a woman's job throughout vast swathes of India. China is much closer to parity in engineering as well. More women choose engineering when they have fewer career choices, because they take the freedoms they can get; Iran also has a high ratio of female engineers. In virtually all countries where women are free to choose any career, they largely don't choose engineering.