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I used to think it was fairly easy to identify who was/is a "Nazi" or Nazi sympathizers (The Daily Stormer obviously passed the smell test). What I'm concerned

I used to think it was fairly easy to identify who was/is a "Nazi" or Nazi sympathizers (The Daily Stormer obviously passed the smell test). What I'm concerned about is that the scope of who's included in that group seems to be expanding. Immediately after Chancellorsville plenty of Liberal pundits, on and off Twitter, explicitly stated there was no difference between Republicans and the NRA and Nazis, which is of course a ludicrous statement. But people don't think it's ludicrous anymore. It seems a reasonable expectation at this point that this expansion will continue, because anyone who doesn't sufficiently condemn/signal their agreement with policing speech in this manner might find themselves branded a "Nazi sympathizer". Is this where we're headed? I sincerely hope not, because it's going to lead to a frightening trend of self-censorship. This is a sign of a seriously unhealthy political culture.

mc32 9y ago
After the election there was a commentator who attributed Trump's win to "whitelash". If true, I think one could say in the media we're experiencing an aggravated allergy to anything that does not toe the PC-line. No doubt the most of the protestors were white supremacists and sympathizers, but to equate everyone who coincidentally shares anything with them (they vote R, they support NRA) is automatically binned with such groups is just as bad as what the left complains about when people on the right equate people who share some values with extremist-terrorists as equal to being a member in those kinds of groups.
Red_Tarsius 9y ago
That's exactly were the USA is headed. The vocal minority wants the civil war to happen. They want to affirm their own epic narrative (https://sivers.org/drama https://sivers.org/drama). David defeats Goliath, for the common good. A lot of young people can't get a hold of their identity, so they grab on to their gender, race, being liberal, whatever. They make a virtue out of anything they already are. Then the journalists exploit the collective search for meaning by selling outrage and a scapegoat. Some people need the "nazis": their identity depends on it.
- yannis7 9y ago
  I would frame this on my wall - spot on
- api 9y ago
  Isn't that also what the Nazi alt-right people are doing: grabbing a radicalized ready made identity off the shelf because they don't know who they are? I see a ton of this today. Maybe it's the social media version of the couch potato. This is what it looks like when people lose themselves in social media.
  - zimpenfish 9y ago
    > This is what it looks like when people lose themselves in social media. No, this is what it looks like when you have a racist country that doesn't address its institutional racism for decades combined with a racist political party that panders and dogwhistles to them for (at least 5, more like 20) years combined with broken ideas about free speech.
    - leereeves 9y ago
      The Democratic vice-mayor of Charlottesville has publicly said he hates white people. Racism goes both ways and some people in both parties are guilty of it.
      - zimpenfish 9y ago
        Whilst I can't defend him saying that, I will point out that it happened in 2009 and it's possible his opinions have changed since. (Also mildly amusing that the person highlighting these tweets was one "Jason Kessler", a local Charlottesville bloggerm and now presumably the same one enjoying worldwide fame for organising a Nazi-themed march which left someone dead.)
        leereeves 9y ago
        > the person highlighting these tweets was one "Jason Kessler" I saw it on CNN's website, where Bellamy said he'd grown since 2011 (that's the year he mentioned). http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/08/13/charlottesville-virginia-vice-mayor-racist-tweets-protests-newday-weekend.cnn http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/08/13/charlottesville-virg...
ebola1717 9y ago
This is a pretty thin slippery slope argument. No one is arguing the Republican Party are literally terrorists. The idea that they often flirt with white nationalists far more than they should is not tantamount to a call for banning their websites. It is a call to hold them accountable for their words and actions.
- themgt 9y ago
  Here is Markos Moulitsas[1], founder of DailyKos and Vox Media: "NRA and American conservatives/Nazis are one and the same." [1] https://twitter.com/markos/status/896760610242912260 https://twitter.com/markos/status/896760610242912260
  - rtpg 9y ago
    Soooo many people say BLM is the same as ISIS. It's not policy
  - ebola1717 9y ago
    I mean yes, with 140 characters, you get some hyperboles. Before 2017, when we said someone was basically a Nazi, we didn't mean it literally. It'll take some time for our lexicon to catch up, but that doesn't mean this Tweet is saying there's literally no difference between the NRA and the KKK.
    - jaredklewis 9y ago
      Sounds like he is saying the NRA and conservatives are Nazis to me. The same kind of garbage deranged conservatives said about Obama throughout his presidency. This "hyperbole" or sometimes "humor" defense is often pulled out to justify all crazy things said by Trump, conservative talk radio hosts, and so on. Always leaves a bad taste in my mouth. This is serious stuff. Should we be exaggerating it or joking about it? If we assume Moulitsas' tweet is hyperbole, the nicest thing you can say about the tweet is that it is completely devoid of content, as apparently its only assertion is just hyperbole. In which case Moulitsas was just name calling. I feel as liberals we have strong, rational arguments as to why conservative policies and ideology are harmful to our society. Let's stick to those and drop the name calling.
api 9y ago
Nazis support Trump. If he doesn't disown them then people conclude it's mutual. Trump is the Republican president, so that makes people wonder. Maybe it's a Democrat trap, but if so he is stepping right into it.
hyperdunc 9y ago
Maybe there will be increased self-censorship, or maybe words like "Nazi" will lose their power as more people stop caring if they're labeled with them.
zimpenfish 9y ago
> there was no difference between Republicans and the NRA and Nazis, which is of course a ludicrous statement. It's reaching, sure, but it's not ludicrous - the GOP has an avowed platform of disenfranchising minorities, punishing them through punitive taxes and withdrawal of services. Sure, they're not using guns but they're committed to effectively wiping them out.
- tatersolid 9y ago
  Please, please, point us to this in the GOP party official platform documentation. This is the sort of hyperbole bandied about casually by liberals that so infuriates the right-leaning and empowers Nazi assholes to attract "mostly normal" folks who would otherwise never consider such a thing.
  - zimpenfish 9y ago
    Of course they're not written down in plain language - even the GOP is smarter than that. But it's evident in the laws they want to pass. Disenfranchising minorities: Texas: http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/11/politics/texas-voter-id-law-discriminate/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/11/politics/texas-voter-id-la... Indianapolis: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/08/10/the_indiana_gop_cut_early_voting_in_area_with_black_democrats_after_2008.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/08/10/the_indian... Milwaukee: http://urbanmilwaukee.com/pressrelease/gov-walkers-refusal-to-disavow-trump-is-not-just-cowardice-it-is-a-pattern-of-behavior/ http://urbanmilwaukee.com/pressrelease/gov-walkers-refusal-t... etc.etc. Punitive taxes and withdrawal of services can be entirely covered by their Medicare / Medicaid plan - https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/07/house-gop-budget-plan-puts-medicare-and-social-security-on-the-line/533991/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/07/house-g... The Milwaukee link above has some more specific examples.
    - tatersolid 9y ago
      Reading those references... you basically admit inflammatory, hyperbolic, and inaccurate characterization of the GOP? Not a single one targets any ethnic group or minority. I'm not a GOP supporter, but you are not helping the situation. Make a reasonable argument with supporting evidence in clear language if you want to change someone's mind. Stop contributing to the bipolar political bullshit in this country. By your logic one could easily argue that the Dems target minorities for repression as well. They want to keep some minorities in poverty (progressive taxes for higher income) and steal from other minorities (rich people).
mschuster91 9y ago
> Immediately after Chancellorsville plenty of Liberal pundits, on and off Twitter, explicitly stated there was no difference between Republicans and the NRA and Nazis, which is of course a ludicrous statement First, it's Charlottesville. Second, given the massive shift to right-wing, authoritarian, racist politics of the Republicans, and ESPECIALLY their role in getting Trump into office, it is an exaggeration to call them Nazis, but certainly allowed in my opinion. Also: whoever in the Republican party does not want to get called a Nazi, must condemn Trump, Bannon and the entire alt-right/tea party mess. Everyone who allows these guys to remain in the Republican party or the Republican-led government acts as an accomplice of Nazis and thus deserves to be called a Nazi and be treated as such. > This is a sign of a seriously unhealthy political culture. No. Calling out racists, sexists, white supremacists, KKK and alt-right as Nazis is not an "unhealthy political culture", it's the last line of defense a civilized society has. Shit's been accepted for YEARS now since the birth of the Tea Party movement and later the alt-right, it's time to dump them on the trash heap of history where they belong. Racism, sexism and all other forms of hating against minorities must be condemned, no excuses.
- tomjen3 9y ago
  You are essentially saying that about, or slightly less than, half the US is nazies? If so then either a) the label has been expanded and watered down so much it is essentially pointless or b) you have already lost the fight (in 33 "only" about 30% voted for Hitler) and must therefore be sitting at a minimum in house arrest.
  - mschuster91 9y ago
    > You are essentially saying that about, or slightly less than, half the US is nazies 25% of US population voted for a known sexist and racist all while knowing that he was backed by neo-Nazis. Still, right now, 36% of US (per http://www.gallup.com/poll/201617/gallup-daily-trump-job-approval.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/201617/gallup-daily-trump-job-app...) approve with Donald Trump, and thus, with a man who openly supports Nazis. In fact, I believe that the "alt-right" is the only base Donald Trump still has - just look at his economy advisors, they're jumping ship left and right because no one wants to be associated with this. > you have already lost the fight Which is something that is very well possible, I am afraid to say. I'm a German - and while our local neo-nazi party has recently lost poll rates from 25 down to 7-8%, their major positions got incorporated into the positions of our center-right parties CDU and especially CSU, and even the center-left-ish Social Democrats have shifted to the right. The neo-nazis don't need to actually win elections to succeed, they only have to succeed in getting their positions into the "mainstream".
rtpg 9y ago
Charlottesville literally had people with Nazi flags doing the salute. Claiming they aren't Nazis in the coloquial sense is an absurdity that belongs only in the Onion
- H4CK3RM4N 9y ago
  And there are plenty of hammer and sickles at left leaning marches, but nobody argues that they're trying to reinstate a soviet state and put millions in death camps.
  - zichy 9y ago
    Please stop talking.
  - willstrafach 9y ago
    You have not addressed the point though. If you're saying the flags and chants of "blood and soil" mean something else, you should just say that and substantiate the claim.
    - eeks 9y ago
      What he means is all this is a far cry from an actual Nazi movement. I don't think you really appreciate what the NSDAP was. The NSDAP was build on a very strong military base (disenchanted veterans) and was using very strict military rules. They were not fat morons parading with tiki torches, but trained assassins organized in armed militia used to impose their order through authority and fear. Labeling a bunch of morons Nazi because they are white, they chant and they have a Swastika flag is a moral fallacy, an insult to all the people that suffered actual Nazism, and a gross oversimplification.
      - willstrafach 9y ago
        When people wave Nazi flags, chant Nazi slogans, perform Nazi salutes, etc. it is not unreasonable to call them Nazis.
hsod 9y ago
I think the growing Nazi movement is a far more serious sign of an unhealthy political culture than some anti-nazi hyperbole on twitter. I agree we should be careful not to paint with too broad a brush but it's obvious the GOP has a very very real Nazi problem (the man they elected President went on tv yesterday and normalized them). Maybe some of the hyperbole will serve as a wake-up call to the fake centrists who whisper "I'm against Nazis" and shout "the reaction to Nazis is the real problem here".
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  I believe growing right-wing sentiment is a partial reaction to a PC culture that doesn't allow for any discussion of certain issues. Oh, you're against illegal immigrants taking lower class jobs? You're a racist. You don't like the idea of multiculturalism diluting the culture of an area? You're ignorant. You don't like outsourcing because it's hurting you and your family? You're a bigot that doesn't think of other people. You believe biological and psychological differences between the sexes may lead to differences in career preferences? You're fired for creating an "unsafe work environment." All of this is also amplified by the fact that most people outside of big cities have been experiencing a declining quality of life. If moderate people with nuanced opinions that differ from the left don't have an avenue of discussion, they will tend towards extremism since that is the only way they can express their opinions. Combined with a growing sense of anxiety from the declining quality of life, and you get what is happening now.
  - microwavecamera 9y ago
    It's not that you can't discuss issues. It's the extremists who twist issues and promote falsehoods to support their racists ideals that are the issue.
throwawaymanbot 9y ago
Have you seen any of the NRAs ads recently? Have you seen some of the tweets from GOP members? Its in lock step with the exact same message that Nazis and their Sympathizers are putting out there. In fact, recently in a poll, nearly %50 of republican would be ok with suspending the 2020 vote. Its not the Democrats doing these things. Now you are going to tell people on here, how unhealthy political culture is, by complaining about poor little alt-right feelings? lol mate.

mc32 9y ago

After the election there was a commentator who attributed Trump's win to "whitelash". If true, I think one could say in the media we're experiencing an aggravated allergy to anything that does not toe the PC-line. No doubt the most of the protestors were white supremacists and sympathizers, but to equate everyone who coincidentally shares anything with them (they vote R, they support NRA) is automatically binned with such groups is just as bad as what the left complains about when people on the right equate people who share some values with extremist-terrorists as equal to being a member in those kinds of groups.

Red_Tarsius 9y ago

That's exactly were the USA is headed. The vocal minority wants the civil war to happen. They want to affirm their own epic narrative (https://sivers.org/drama https://sivers.org/drama). David defeats Goliath, for the common good. A lot of young people can't get a hold of their identity, so they grab on to their gender, race, being liberal, whatever. They make a virtue out of anything they already are. Then the journalists exploit the collective search for meaning by selling outrage and a scapegoat. Some people need the "nazis": their identity depends on it.

yannis7 9y ago
I would frame this on my wall - spot on
api 9y ago
Isn't that also what the Nazi alt-right people are doing: grabbing a radicalized ready made identity off the shelf because they don't know who they are? I see a ton of this today. Maybe it's the social media version of the couch potato. This is what it looks like when people lose themselves in social media.
- zimpenfish 9y ago
  > This is what it looks like when people lose themselves in social media. No, this is what it looks like when you have a racist country that doesn't address its institutional racism for decades combined with a racist political party that panders and dogwhistles to them for (at least 5, more like 20) years combined with broken ideas about free speech.
  - leereeves 9y ago
    The Democratic vice-mayor of Charlottesville has publicly said he hates white people. Racism goes both ways and some people in both parties are guilty of it.
    - zimpenfish 9y ago
      Whilst I can't defend him saying that, I will point out that it happened in 2009 and it's possible his opinions have changed since. (Also mildly amusing that the person highlighting these tweets was one "Jason Kessler", a local Charlottesville bloggerm and now presumably the same one enjoying worldwide fame for organising a Nazi-themed march which left someone dead.)
      - leereeves 9y ago
        > the person highlighting these tweets was one "Jason Kessler" I saw it on CNN's website, where Bellamy said he'd grown since 2011 (that's the year he mentioned). http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/08/13/charlottesville-virginia-vice-mayor-racist-tweets-protests-newday-weekend.cnn http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/08/13/charlottesville-virg...

ebola1717 9y ago

This is a pretty thin slippery slope argument. No one is arguing the Republican Party are literally terrorists. The idea that they often flirt with white nationalists far more than they should is not tantamount to a call for banning their websites. It is a call to hold them accountable for their words and actions.

themgt 9y ago
Here is Markos Moulitsas[1], founder of DailyKos and Vox Media: "NRA and American conservatives/Nazis are one and the same." [1] https://twitter.com/markos/status/896760610242912260 https://twitter.com/markos/status/896760610242912260
- rtpg 9y ago
  Soooo many people say BLM is the same as ISIS. It's not policy
- ebola1717 9y ago
  I mean yes, with 140 characters, you get some hyperboles. Before 2017, when we said someone was basically a Nazi, we didn't mean it literally. It'll take some time for our lexicon to catch up, but that doesn't mean this Tweet is saying there's literally no difference between the NRA and the KKK.
  - jaredklewis 9y ago
    Sounds like he is saying the NRA and conservatives are Nazis to me. The same kind of garbage deranged conservatives said about Obama throughout his presidency. This "hyperbole" or sometimes "humor" defense is often pulled out to justify all crazy things said by Trump, conservative talk radio hosts, and so on. Always leaves a bad taste in my mouth. This is serious stuff. Should we be exaggerating it or joking about it? If we assume Moulitsas' tweet is hyperbole, the nicest thing you can say about the tweet is that it is completely devoid of content, as apparently its only assertion is just hyperbole. In which case Moulitsas was just name calling. I feel as liberals we have strong, rational arguments as to why conservative policies and ideology are harmful to our society. Let's stick to those and drop the name calling.

api 9y ago

Nazis support Trump. If he doesn't disown them then people conclude it's mutual. Trump is the Republican president, so that makes people wonder. Maybe it's a Democrat trap, but if so he is stepping right into it.

hyperdunc 9y ago

Maybe there will be increased self-censorship, or maybe words like "Nazi" will lose their power as more people stop caring if they're labeled with them.

zimpenfish 9y ago

> there was no difference between Republicans and the NRA and Nazis, which is of course a ludicrous statement. It's reaching, sure, but it's not ludicrous - the GOP has an avowed platform of disenfranchising minorities, punishing them through punitive taxes and withdrawal of services. Sure, they're not using guns but they're committed to effectively wiping them out.

tatersolid 9y ago
Please, please, point us to this in the GOP party official platform documentation. This is the sort of hyperbole bandied about casually by liberals that so infuriates the right-leaning and empowers Nazi assholes to attract "mostly normal" folks who would otherwise never consider such a thing.
- zimpenfish 9y ago
  Of course they're not written down in plain language - even the GOP is smarter than that. But it's evident in the laws they want to pass. Disenfranchising minorities: Texas: http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/11/politics/texas-voter-id-law-discriminate/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/11/politics/texas-voter-id-la... Indianapolis: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/08/10/the_indiana_gop_cut_early_voting_in_area_with_black_democrats_after_2008.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/08/10/the_indian... Milwaukee: http://urbanmilwaukee.com/pressrelease/gov-walkers-refusal-to-disavow-trump-is-not-just-cowardice-it-is-a-pattern-of-behavior/ http://urbanmilwaukee.com/pressrelease/gov-walkers-refusal-t... etc.etc. Punitive taxes and withdrawal of services can be entirely covered by their Medicare / Medicaid plan - https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/07/house-gop-budget-plan-puts-medicare-and-social-security-on-the-line/533991/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/07/house-g... The Milwaukee link above has some more specific examples.
  - tatersolid 9y ago
    Reading those references... you basically admit inflammatory, hyperbolic, and inaccurate characterization of the GOP? Not a single one targets any ethnic group or minority. I'm not a GOP supporter, but you are not helping the situation. Make a reasonable argument with supporting evidence in clear language if you want to change someone's mind. Stop contributing to the bipolar political bullshit in this country. By your logic one could easily argue that the Dems target minorities for repression as well. They want to keep some minorities in poverty (progressive taxes for higher income) and steal from other minorities (rich people).

mschuster91 9y ago

> Immediately after Chancellorsville plenty of Liberal pundits, on and off Twitter, explicitly stated there was no difference between Republicans and the NRA and Nazis, which is of course a ludicrous statement First, it's Charlottesville. Second, given the massive shift to right-wing, authoritarian, racist politics of the Republicans, and ESPECIALLY their role in getting Trump into office, it is an exaggeration to call them Nazis, but certainly allowed in my opinion. Also: whoever in the Republican party does not want to get called a Nazi, must condemn Trump, Bannon and the entire alt-right/tea party mess. Everyone who allows these guys to remain in the Republican party or the Republican-led government acts as an accomplice of Nazis and thus deserves to be called a Nazi and be treated as such. > This is a sign of a seriously unhealthy political culture. No. Calling out racists, sexists, white supremacists, KKK and alt-right as Nazis is not an "unhealthy political culture", it's the last line of defense a civilized society has. Shit's been accepted for YEARS now since the birth of the Tea Party movement and later the alt-right, it's time to dump them on the trash heap of history where they belong. Racism, sexism and all other forms of hating against minorities must be condemned, no excuses.

tomjen3 9y ago
You are essentially saying that about, or slightly less than, half the US is nazies? If so then either a) the label has been expanded and watered down so much it is essentially pointless or b) you have already lost the fight (in 33 "only" about 30% voted for Hitler) and must therefore be sitting at a minimum in house arrest.
- mschuster91 9y ago
  > You are essentially saying that about, or slightly less than, half the US is nazies 25% of US population voted for a known sexist and racist all while knowing that he was backed by neo-Nazis. Still, right now, 36% of US (per http://www.gallup.com/poll/201617/gallup-daily-trump-job-approval.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/201617/gallup-daily-trump-job-app...) approve with Donald Trump, and thus, with a man who openly supports Nazis. In fact, I believe that the "alt-right" is the only base Donald Trump still has - just look at his economy advisors, they're jumping ship left and right because no one wants to be associated with this. > you have already lost the fight Which is something that is very well possible, I am afraid to say. I'm a German - and while our local neo-nazi party has recently lost poll rates from 25 down to 7-8%, their major positions got incorporated into the positions of our center-right parties CDU and especially CSU, and even the center-left-ish Social Democrats have shifted to the right. The neo-nazis don't need to actually win elections to succeed, they only have to succeed in getting their positions into the "mainstream".

rtpg 9y ago

Charlottesville literally had people with Nazi flags doing the salute. Claiming they aren't Nazis in the coloquial sense is an absurdity that belongs only in the Onion

H4CK3RM4N 9y ago
And there are plenty of hammer and sickles at left leaning marches, but nobody argues that they're trying to reinstate a soviet state and put millions in death camps.
- zichy 9y ago
  Please stop talking.
- willstrafach 9y ago
  You have not addressed the point though. If you're saying the flags and chants of "blood and soil" mean something else, you should just say that and substantiate the claim.
  - eeks 9y ago
    What he means is all this is a far cry from an actual Nazi movement. I don't think you really appreciate what the NSDAP was. The NSDAP was build on a very strong military base (disenchanted veterans) and was using very strict military rules. They were not fat morons parading with tiki torches, but trained assassins organized in armed militia used to impose their order through authority and fear. Labeling a bunch of morons Nazi because they are white, they chant and they have a Swastika flag is a moral fallacy, an insult to all the people that suffered actual Nazism, and a gross oversimplification.
    - willstrafach 9y ago
      When people wave Nazi flags, chant Nazi slogans, perform Nazi salutes, etc. it is not unreasonable to call them Nazis.

hsod 9y ago

I think the growing Nazi movement is a far more serious sign of an unhealthy political culture than some anti-nazi hyperbole on twitter. I agree we should be careful not to paint with too broad a brush but it's obvious the GOP has a very very real Nazi problem (the man they elected President went on tv yesterday and normalized them). Maybe some of the hyperbole will serve as a wake-up call to the fake centrists who whisper "I'm against Nazis" and shout "the reaction to Nazis is the real problem here".

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
I believe growing right-wing sentiment is a partial reaction to a PC culture that doesn't allow for any discussion of certain issues. Oh, you're against illegal immigrants taking lower class jobs? You're a racist. You don't like the idea of multiculturalism diluting the culture of an area? You're ignorant. You don't like outsourcing because it's hurting you and your family? You're a bigot that doesn't think of other people. You believe biological and psychological differences between the sexes may lead to differences in career preferences? You're fired for creating an "unsafe work environment." All of this is also amplified by the fact that most people outside of big cities have been experiencing a declining quality of life. If moderate people with nuanced opinions that differ from the left don't have an avenue of discussion, they will tend towards extremism since that is the only way they can express their opinions. Combined with a growing sense of anxiety from the declining quality of life, and you get what is happening now.
- microwavecamera 9y ago
  It's not that you can't discuss issues. It's the extremists who twist issues and promote falsehoods to support their racists ideals that are the issue.

throwawaymanbot 9y ago

Have you seen any of the NRAs ads recently? Have you seen some of the tweets from GOP members? Its in lock step with the exact same message that Nazis and their Sympathizers are putting out there. In fact, recently in a poll, nearly %50 of republican would be ok with suspending the 2020 vote. Its not the Democrats doing these things. Now you are going to tell people on here, how unhealthy political culture is, by complaining about poor little alt-right feelings? lol mate.