7 ms·

If this is a "current tech culture" problem, how do you explain the fact that this is a trend shared across most of the engineering professions? Example: http:/

If this is a "current tech culture" problem, how do you explain the fact that this is a trend shared across most of the engineering professions? Example: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-business/11692996/Women-In-Engineering-Day-Gender-gap-in-male-dominated-industry-falls.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-business/11692996/Wo... I don't think you can claim that "tech" and e.g. civil engineering have much in common in terms of culture, but they still share the lack of men/women parity.

csallen 9y ago
Seems like you're arguing semantics, as the phrase could easily be changed to "current engineering culture" to invalidate your point. If you find it objectionable to change the phrase in such away, consider the fact that, as a computer scientist, I went to school and took classes with many mechanical, civil, and electrical engineers. I'm still friends with them today. The cultures are intertwined.
- Const-me 9y ago
  But why does the same trend persists across cultures? The same is true for any developed country in the world. Do you think your tech culture is also interwined with that of Australia, Poland, Sweden and Italy?
  - Chinjut 9y ago
    Yes, to a great deal, it is.
    - mseebach 9y ago
      Yes, to an extent it is. But it's very difficult to quantify how big the effect on culture is on womens choices to not even pursue education in tech. It seems, for an example, extremely unlikely that a young woman basically anywhere in these countries, would say to herself, "hmm, I've heard that there's mansplaining at Google, so I think I'll go into law or investment banking or medicine instead". The misogynism we're imploring ourselves to eradicate is so subtle, it's unconscious biases and micro-aggressions (that is, agressions you don't know you're committing). When we can barely detect them ourselves, how would they be able to embed themselves into the subconscience of millions of young girls across dozens of quite different cultures? And that's without considering the quite numerous fields with a high degree of misogyny embedded as a broad popular culture trope. "Suits" does not envision a law-field that is particularly friendly to women, "Billions" : finance, "Scrubs" : medicine. Women have no issue with pursuing careers in those fields. That's not excusing bad behaviour, just observing that this behaviour, and broad knowledge of it, does not appear to deter women, and to serve as a counterpoint to the assertion that the far more subtle and much less broadly portrayed alleged misogynism of tech should be detering women.
    - kaybe 9y ago
      And probably more than with some subcultures in the same country.
nostrebored 9y ago
Yet somehow, programming is considered a woman's job throughout vast swathes of India. China is much closer to parity in engineering as well. You're ignoring that girls are socialized to think they're bad at math, science, etc. Boys are told the opposite and are pushed in this direction. I certainly was. My parents were drilling me on math by age five.
- Const-me 9y ago
  In all developed countries, only 10-25% of engineers are female. An American society in is very different from that of Australia, Sweden, Greece or Germany. Not sure why, but I know one possible explanation. In developing countries, people are pressured by their basic needs. An engineering job generally pays well. People in such countries are less likely to do what they want and more likely to do what pays well, so gender ratio in engineering is close to 50/50. In developed countries, people are guaranteed to survive even without a profession or job. Less financial pressure, more freedom of choice, less women in engineering.
  - ptaipale 9y ago
    A very good point. Women don't go to STEM jobs because they get sufficient compensation in work that they like more, on the average. And it's easier to do what other women do.
    - Const-me 9y ago
      > And it's easier to do what other women do. That factor hasn’t stopped women from becoming e.g. doctors and lawyers. Just 50 years ago, very few women did that, because discrimination (e.g. for healthcare in America, gender-based discrimination was only banned in 1975) and culture norms. But now it’s pretty close to 50/50 gender ratio in these areas (females are 47.3% of law students in 2007, 46.7% of medical students in 2013).
      - ptaipale 9y ago
        Yes, we can conclude that structural discrimination of women in law and medical students has largely gone away. Why does anyone think that STEM subjects would somehow retained such discrimination? I consider it more likely that now women do what they want to do. And that is in many ways a good thing.

csallen 9y ago

Seems like you're arguing semantics, as the phrase could easily be changed to "current engineering culture" to invalidate your point. If you find it objectionable to change the phrase in such away, consider the fact that, as a computer scientist, I went to school and took classes with many mechanical, civil, and electrical engineers. I'm still friends with them today. The cultures are intertwined.

Const-me 9y ago
But why does the same trend persists across cultures? The same is true for any developed country in the world. Do you think your tech culture is also interwined with that of Australia, Poland, Sweden and Italy?
- Chinjut 9y ago
  Yes, to a great deal, it is.
  - mseebach 9y ago
    Yes, to an extent it is. But it's very difficult to quantify how big the effect on culture is on womens choices to not even pursue education in tech. It seems, for an example, extremely unlikely that a young woman basically anywhere in these countries, would say to herself, "hmm, I've heard that there's mansplaining at Google, so I think I'll go into law or investment banking or medicine instead". The misogynism we're imploring ourselves to eradicate is so subtle, it's unconscious biases and micro-aggressions (that is, agressions you don't know you're committing). When we can barely detect them ourselves, how would they be able to embed themselves into the subconscience of millions of young girls across dozens of quite different cultures? And that's without considering the quite numerous fields with a high degree of misogyny embedded as a broad popular culture trope. "Suits" does not envision a law-field that is particularly friendly to women, "Billions" : finance, "Scrubs" : medicine. Women have no issue with pursuing careers in those fields. That's not excusing bad behaviour, just observing that this behaviour, and broad knowledge of it, does not appear to deter women, and to serve as a counterpoint to the assertion that the far more subtle and much less broadly portrayed alleged misogynism of tech should be detering women.
  - kaybe 9y ago
    And probably more than with some subcultures in the same country.

nostrebored 9y ago

Yet somehow, programming is considered a woman's job throughout vast swathes of India. China is much closer to parity in engineering as well. You're ignoring that girls are socialized to think they're bad at math, science, etc. Boys are told the opposite and are pushed in this direction. I certainly was. My parents were drilling me on math by age five.

Const-me 9y ago
In all developed countries, only 10-25% of engineers are female. An American society in is very different from that of Australia, Sweden, Greece or Germany. Not sure why, but I know one possible explanation. In developing countries, people are pressured by their basic needs. An engineering job generally pays well. People in such countries are less likely to do what they want and more likely to do what pays well, so gender ratio in engineering is close to 50/50. In developed countries, people are guaranteed to survive even without a profession or job. Less financial pressure, more freedom of choice, less women in engineering.
- ptaipale 9y ago
  A very good point. Women don't go to STEM jobs because they get sufficient compensation in work that they like more, on the average. And it's easier to do what other women do.
  - Const-me 9y ago
    > And it's easier to do what other women do. That factor hasn’t stopped women from becoming e.g. doctors and lawyers. Just 50 years ago, very few women did that, because discrimination (e.g. for healthcare in America, gender-based discrimination was only banned in 1975) and culture norms. But now it’s pretty close to 50/50 gender ratio in these areas (females are 47.3% of law students in 2007, 46.7% of medical students in 2013).
    - ptaipale 9y ago
      Yes, we can conclude that structural discrimination of women in law and medical students has largely gone away. Why does anyone think that STEM subjects would somehow retained such discrimination? I consider it more likely that now women do what they want to do. And that is in many ways a good thing.