5 ms·

You are completely incorrect. Whether or not Google did in reality lower the bar to hire more women is a matter of fact. That Damore felt that in order to meet

by mejari 9y ago

You are completely incorrect. Whether or not Google did in reality lower the bar to hire more women is a matter of fact. That Damore felt that in order to meet the goal of hiring more women Google had to lower the bar is his _opinion_, and it is a telling opinion about how he thinks about the capabilities of women. "You had to buy inferior wood to get enough to build this house. I don't think there's enough good wood to build the house, therefore in order to get enough you had to buy inferior wood." The fact of the quality of the wood is separate from the opinion of the availability of quality wood.

alexandercrohde 9y ago
Except no, he did not say google "had to lower the bar." If you read the memo, he says : "Google has created several discriminatory practices: ... Hiring practices which can effectively lower the bar for “diversity” candidates by decreasing the false negative rate" [Mind you _lower the bar_ is a hyperlink, to a gdoc I don't have access to, so he's citing another document as evidence of this practice]. So he is in fact arguing a factual claim, that google has applied inconsistant standards in practice, as I suggested in my prior post.
- mejari 9y ago
  You say he didn't say that Google had to lower the bar, then you quote where he says explicitly that? "Google does X. X lowers the bar." >So he is in fact arguing a factual claim, that google has applied inconsistant standards in practice, as I suggested in my prior post. Yes. Re-read my comment. Whether or not they apply inconsistent hiring practices is a factual claim. The idea that the only way to achieve the goal of hiring more women is to apply inconsistent hiring practices is his opinion.
  - alexandercrohde 9y ago
    I don't know what you're arguing anymore. I'm thoroughly convinced you either haven't read the relevant sections or have forgotten them since this discussion started. Please show me where he says anything like "The idea that the only way to achieve the goal of hiring more women is to apply inconsistent hiring practices is his opinion."
  - literallycancer 9y ago
    >practices which can effectively lower the bar He merely states that it can have that effect. >Yes. Re-read my comment. Whether or not they apply inconsistent hiring practices is a factual claim. The idea that the only way to achieve the goal of hiring more women is to apply inconsistent hiring practices is his opinion. It looks like a logical conclusion to me. Care to explain why you think it's not?
    - mejari 9y ago
      >He merely states that it can have that effect. He "merely" says that Google is doing it, and that doing it lowers the bar. Therefore he's saying that Google lowered the bar. It's a pretty simple a = b = c scenario >It looks like a logical conclusion to me. Care to explain why you think it's not? Because women can achieve at the same level as men? I thought it was pretty obvious.
      - literallycancer 9y ago
        >Because women can achieve at the same level as men? I thought it was pretty obvious. No one would find it weird if I claimed that women aren't able to run a 100 as fast as men. Yes, there might be some exceptional cases where women can compete, but they are just that, exceptions to the rule. Most of the time women compete among themselves since they would never qualify for anything if they competed in the same category as men. Why is it unacceptable to make the same observation about intellectual endeavors, or programming specifically? You claim that women can achieve at the same level as men. Let's assume they can for now. However, your gripe is with the under-representation of women at tech companies. So that claim doesn't really help you, you would need to show that women perform as well as men on average. Can you?
        mejari 9y ago
        >Why is it unacceptable to make the same observation about intellectual endeavors, or programming specifically? Because the observation is inaccurate. There is no evidence that it is true. >However, your gripe is with the under-representation of women at tech companies. So that claim doesn't really help you, you would need to show that women perform as well as men on average. Can you? We have no evidence they can't, why would we assume that to be the case?
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
If the supply of qualified female candidates ready to be hired now is thought to be restricted (so that the bar must be lowered), that does not imply the same thought about the capabilities of women. The problem with diversity could be thought to be in the talent pipeline: young girls wanting to be programmers, gaining interest and experience in high school, going to college to study computer science, staying the field to reach higher levels, and so on. In fact, we find that the field was way more diverse before the 1990s, and the talent pipeline for female programmers only started choking in the late 80s (for reasons we could argue, but one popular theory involves boy-oriented PCs and video games).
gpm 9y ago
> it is a telling opinion about how he thinks about the capabilities of women. No, assuming that men and women who applied have the exact same distribution of 'good qualities', you have twice as many male applicants as female applicants, and you want to hire as many women as men, you have to lower the bar for women.
- mejari 9y ago
  That's a completely made-up scenario. Google themselves have said that the way they're trying to hire more women is by looking harder for qualified candidates, not by lowering the level that meets "qualified".

by mejari 9y ago

alexandercrohde 9y ago

Except no, he did not say google "had to lower the bar." If you read the memo, he says : "Google has created several discriminatory practices: ... Hiring practices which can effectively lower the bar for “diversity” candidates by decreasing the false negative rate" [Mind you _lower the bar_ is a hyperlink, to a gdoc I don't have access to, so he's citing another document as evidence of this practice]. So he is in fact arguing a factual claim, that google has applied inconsistant standards in practice, as I suggested in my prior post.

mejari 9y ago
You say he didn't say that Google had to lower the bar, then you quote where he says explicitly that? "Google does X. X lowers the bar." >So he is in fact arguing a factual claim, that google has applied inconsistant standards in practice, as I suggested in my prior post. Yes. Re-read my comment. Whether or not they apply inconsistent hiring practices is a factual claim. The idea that the only way to achieve the goal of hiring more women is to apply inconsistent hiring practices is his opinion.
- alexandercrohde 9y ago
  I don't know what you're arguing anymore. I'm thoroughly convinced you either haven't read the relevant sections or have forgotten them since this discussion started. Please show me where he says anything like "The idea that the only way to achieve the goal of hiring more women is to apply inconsistent hiring practices is his opinion."
- literallycancer 9y ago
  >practices which can effectively lower the bar He merely states that it can have that effect. >Yes. Re-read my comment. Whether or not they apply inconsistent hiring practices is a factual claim. The idea that the only way to achieve the goal of hiring more women is to apply inconsistent hiring practices is his opinion. It looks like a logical conclusion to me. Care to explain why you think it's not?
  - mejari 9y ago
    >He merely states that it can have that effect. He "merely" says that Google is doing it, and that doing it lowers the bar. Therefore he's saying that Google lowered the bar. It's a pretty simple a = b = c scenario >It looks like a logical conclusion to me. Care to explain why you think it's not? Because women can achieve at the same level as men? I thought it was pretty obvious.
    - literallycancer 9y ago
      >Because women can achieve at the same level as men? I thought it was pretty obvious. No one would find it weird if I claimed that women aren't able to run a 100 as fast as men. Yes, there might be some exceptional cases where women can compete, but they are just that, exceptions to the rule. Most of the time women compete among themselves since they would never qualify for anything if they competed in the same category as men. Why is it unacceptable to make the same observation about intellectual endeavors, or programming specifically? You claim that women can achieve at the same level as men. Let's assume they can for now. However, your gripe is with the under-representation of women at tech companies. So that claim doesn't really help you, you would need to show that women perform as well as men on average. Can you?
      - mejari 9y ago
        >Why is it unacceptable to make the same observation about intellectual endeavors, or programming specifically? Because the observation is inaccurate. There is no evidence that it is true. >However, your gripe is with the under-representation of women at tech companies. So that claim doesn't really help you, you would need to show that women perform as well as men on average. Can you? We have no evidence they can't, why would we assume that to be the case?

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

If the supply of qualified female candidates ready to be hired now is thought to be restricted (so that the bar must be lowered), that does not imply the same thought about the capabilities of women. The problem with diversity could be thought to be in the talent pipeline: young girls wanting to be programmers, gaining interest and experience in high school, going to college to study computer science, staying the field to reach higher levels, and so on. In fact, we find that the field was way more diverse before the 1990s, and the talent pipeline for female programmers only started choking in the late 80s (for reasons we could argue, but one popular theory involves boy-oriented PCs and video games).

gpm 9y ago

> it is a telling opinion about how he thinks about the capabilities of women. No, assuming that men and women who applied have the exact same distribution of 'good qualities', you have twice as many male applicants as female applicants, and you want to hire as many women as men, you have to lower the bar for women.

mejari 9y ago
That's a completely made-up scenario. Google themselves have said that the way they're trying to hire more women is by looking harder for qualified candidates, not by lowering the level that meets "qualified".