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"Uber Saw Tesla as a Huge Competitor While Uber followed Google’s cars closely, it was Tesla and Elon Musk that the duo discussed most frequently. 9/14/2016 L

by loceng 9y ago

"Uber Saw Tesla as a Huge Competitor While Uber followed Google’s cars closely, it was Tesla and Elon Musk that the duo discussed most frequently. 9/14/2016 Levandowski: Tesla crash in January … implies Elon is lying about millions of miles without incident. We should have LDP on Tesla just to catch all the crashes that are going on. 9/22/2016: We’ve got to start calling Elon on his shit. I'm not on social media but let's start "faketesla" and start give physics lessons about stupid shit Elon says like [saying his cars don’t need lidar]" Does anyone know what they're referencing here? I don't take Elon as a person to lie, his character seems too strong for that - he understands public perception and seems to deeply cares about it.

tmh79 9y ago
Elon has publicly claimed that he will be able to provide an L5 autonomous car without using lidar in the next few years. AL, another expert in the field, believes that claim is so ridiculous that he must be willingly lying, not just overconfident.
- Fricken 9y ago
  Musk said they'd demo L5 late this year, which is delusional.
mhmiles 9y ago
Musk has said on a few occassions that he can achieve full automony on a Tesla with no LIDAR setup. I think instead they use a front-facing radar and a bunch of cameras. Maybe IR?. Levandowski strongly disagrees and sees LIDAR as critical to reliably mapping the environment. This all came up when that guy drove into the side of a trailer in a Tesla.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
gruturo 9y ago
Tesla will do self driving without a LIDAR, just cameras (ok, 8 of those), a RADAR and some ultrasonic distance sensors: https://electrek.co/2016/10/20/tesla-new-autopilot-hardware-suite-camera-nvidia-tesla-vision/ https://electrek.co/2016/10/20/tesla-new-autopilot-hardware-... Some people believe this to be impossible for the time being - LIDAR gives you a 3d point cloud (every obstacle, with its distance from you measured), which is amazing (but currently expensive, bulky, fragile, etc) while with cameras it's way harder, and RADAR can't see some materials at all. Tesla argues that their suite is enough (humans manage with just 2 "cameras", some even 1), but the algorithms to let you safely entrust your life to such a sensor suite are harder (i.e. more far off in the future). Kalanick + Levandowsky disagree with Musk, and were planning on calling him out on it.
- b4ux1t3 9y ago
  I know that you were just doing a tl;dr and not necessarily trying to start a discussion about it, but wow, that seems kinda stupid to be coming out of someone who is ostensibly fairly intelligent. A 3D point cloud is great, but with the raw computing power we have these days, image processing should be pretty reliable, at least until LIDAR becomes more. . .well, reliable and affordable. Doesn't the HoloLens just use an IR camera to map its environment in real time?
  - gruturo 9y ago
    > A 3D point cloud is great, but with the raw computing power we have these days, image processing should be pretty reliable In theory? Yes. In practice? That's how the first autopilot fatality happened. The image processing confused the white side of a semi truck with the sky.
    - NoodleIncident 9y ago
      I thought that that was (also?) a problem with the radar, where it bounced under the truck and thought the road was clear.
      - studentrob 9y ago
        > I thought that that was (also?) a problem with the radar, where it bounced under the truck and thought the road was clear. Ultimately this was driver error, since he wasn't paying attention and didn't break. As for why autopilot did not engage the breaks, you could blame any of the forward facing sensors since they all failed to see the truck. If the vehicle had windshield-height radar, or a better vision system, perhaps the system would work. The problem with the radar was it couldn't see the object at that height. The vision system confused the trailer for an overhead road sign. After the incident, I remember some people reporting more breaking occurring on highways underneath overhead signage. That made me think the fix they put in place was to raise the threshold for what is considered an overhead sign. That is, they chose to err on the side of assuming the sign is an object ahead. That may have been a temporary fix. I'm only speculating based on driver reports that appeared in /r/teslamotors a month or two after the crash was reported. I don't know whether Tesla ever gave an official statement about how they fixed that issue. Tesla wasn't found to be at fault so they probably didn't have to. Also, the whole system is constantly under development.
sanguy 9y ago
Multiple images can be used to compute a 3D point cloud. This is computer vision stuff around for many years. The challenge is this is a passive sensor in that the cameras count on light illuminating the scene. So at night; in bright light (that causes images to blow out); shadows; etc; you can have voids. If a person is in that void bad things can happen. But cameras now cost under a $1 each in volume (thanks smartphones!) so dirt cheap. An imaging based point cloud extraction system main components are therefore cheap. Add a GPU enabled system to process (it's quite compute heavy) and you are set. OpenCV has the algorithms needed. LiDAR is an active sensor in that the laser "illuminates" the target area. This adds cost but that is coming down quickly. Also as the sensor delivered 3D points (not images) the computational cost with images can be saved; so less CPU/GPU required. Levandowski is a LiDAR guy. It's what he believes is the best solution for the problem. Some feel that LiDAR is not a fit either as it doesn't work well in rain/fog/sleet/snow. There was a youtube video showing a self driving car running a test course in clear weather and again in the rain. You would not want to be a pedestrian during the rain test. In reality this is all engineering dick waving. Prices will come down and the sensor payload will converge. For full autonomy it is likely that cameras, LiDAR, Radar, and sonar all will be used. They all bring some advantage to the problem that addresses a weakness of one of the other sensor techs. Oh yeah, and Levandowski is a complete prick. Someone should teach him about IP theft and give him a prison life lesson. He's going to need it.
- tim333 9y ago
  Incidentally, Musk's take: "The whole road system is meant to be navigated with passive optical or cameras and so once you solve camera vision then autonomy is solved if you don't solve vision it's not solved so that that's why our focus is so heavily on having a vision neural net that's very effective for road conditions." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv7qL1mcxcw&feature=youtu.be&t=14m02s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv7qL1mcxcw&feature=youtu.be...
  - loceng 9y ago
    It's interesting if you consider we have 2 eyes [cameras] and we drive under all conditions, and under bad driving conditions - if you're sane - you slow down or even completely stop and pull over with your 4-ways on. When I've been in very heavy rain downpours on the highway, it feels like I'm only driving because I'm able to follow the flow of lights in front of me as having a bunch of guidance points - autonomous vehicles could likely do a much safer job of this..
elmar 9y ago
Tesla’s new self-driving car can only make you money on the ride-sharing ‘Tesla Network’, not Uber or Lyft (2016) https://electrek.co/2016/10/19/teslas-new-self-driving-car-can-only-make-you-money-on-the-ride-sharing-tesla-network-not-uber-or-lyft/ https://electrek.co/2016/10/19/teslas-new-self-driving-car-c... that is the bigest challenge for Uber if tesla decides to completely integrate vertically and as a big fleet.
philsit 9y ago
What does LDP stand for?
Eridrus 9y ago
> I don't take Elon as a person to lie But we all know he will exaggerate to the point of being misleading.

by loceng 9y ago

tmh79 9y ago

Elon has publicly claimed that he will be able to provide an L5 autonomous car without using lidar in the next few years. AL, another expert in the field, believes that claim is so ridiculous that he must be willingly lying, not just overconfident.

Fricken 9y ago
Musk said they'd demo L5 late this year, which is delusional.

mhmiles 9y ago

Musk has said on a few occassions that he can achieve full automony on a Tesla with no LIDAR setup. I think instead they use a front-facing radar and a bunch of cameras. Maybe IR?. Levandowski strongly disagrees and sees LIDAR as critical to reliably mapping the environment. This all came up when that guy drove into the side of a trailer in a Tesla.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

gruturo 9y ago

Tesla will do self driving without a LIDAR, just cameras (ok, 8 of those), a RADAR and some ultrasonic distance sensors: https://electrek.co/2016/10/20/tesla-new-autopilot-hardware-suite-camera-nvidia-tesla-vision/ https://electrek.co/2016/10/20/tesla-new-autopilot-hardware-... Some people believe this to be impossible for the time being - LIDAR gives you a 3d point cloud (every obstacle, with its distance from you measured), which is amazing (but currently expensive, bulky, fragile, etc) while with cameras it's way harder, and RADAR can't see some materials at all. Tesla argues that their suite is enough (humans manage with just 2 "cameras", some even 1), but the algorithms to let you safely entrust your life to such a sensor suite are harder (i.e. more far off in the future). Kalanick + Levandowsky disagree with Musk, and were planning on calling him out on it.

b4ux1t3 9y ago
I know that you were just doing a tl;dr and not necessarily trying to start a discussion about it, but wow, that seems kinda stupid to be coming out of someone who is ostensibly fairly intelligent. A 3D point cloud is great, but with the raw computing power we have these days, image processing should be pretty reliable, at least until LIDAR becomes more. . .well, reliable and affordable. Doesn't the HoloLens just use an IR camera to map its environment in real time?
- gruturo 9y ago
  > A 3D point cloud is great, but with the raw computing power we have these days, image processing should be pretty reliable In theory? Yes. In practice? That's how the first autopilot fatality happened. The image processing confused the white side of a semi truck with the sky.
  - NoodleIncident 9y ago
    I thought that that was (also?) a problem with the radar, where it bounced under the truck and thought the road was clear.
    - studentrob 9y ago
      > I thought that that was (also?) a problem with the radar, where it bounced under the truck and thought the road was clear. Ultimately this was driver error, since he wasn't paying attention and didn't break. As for why autopilot did not engage the breaks, you could blame any of the forward facing sensors since they all failed to see the truck. If the vehicle had windshield-height radar, or a better vision system, perhaps the system would work. The problem with the radar was it couldn't see the object at that height. The vision system confused the trailer for an overhead road sign. After the incident, I remember some people reporting more breaking occurring on highways underneath overhead signage. That made me think the fix they put in place was to raise the threshold for what is considered an overhead sign. That is, they chose to err on the side of assuming the sign is an object ahead. That may have been a temporary fix. I'm only speculating based on driver reports that appeared in /r/teslamotors a month or two after the crash was reported. I don't know whether Tesla ever gave an official statement about how they fixed that issue. Tesla wasn't found to be at fault so they probably didn't have to. Also, the whole system is constantly under development.

sanguy 9y ago

Multiple images can be used to compute a 3D point cloud. This is computer vision stuff around for many years. The challenge is this is a passive sensor in that the cameras count on light illuminating the scene. So at night; in bright light (that causes images to blow out); shadows; etc; you can have voids. If a person is in that void bad things can happen. But cameras now cost under a $1 each in volume (thanks smartphones!) so dirt cheap. An imaging based point cloud extraction system main components are therefore cheap. Add a GPU enabled system to process (it's quite compute heavy) and you are set. OpenCV has the algorithms needed. LiDAR is an active sensor in that the laser "illuminates" the target area. This adds cost but that is coming down quickly. Also as the sensor delivered 3D points (not images) the computational cost with images can be saved; so less CPU/GPU required. Levandowski is a LiDAR guy. It's what he believes is the best solution for the problem. Some feel that LiDAR is not a fit either as it doesn't work well in rain/fog/sleet/snow. There was a youtube video showing a self driving car running a test course in clear weather and again in the rain. You would not want to be a pedestrian during the rain test. In reality this is all engineering dick waving. Prices will come down and the sensor payload will converge. For full autonomy it is likely that cameras, LiDAR, Radar, and sonar all will be used. They all bring some advantage to the problem that addresses a weakness of one of the other sensor techs. Oh yeah, and Levandowski is a complete prick. Someone should teach him about IP theft and give him a prison life lesson. He's going to need it.

tim333 9y ago
Incidentally, Musk's take: "The whole road system is meant to be navigated with passive optical or cameras and so once you solve camera vision then autonomy is solved if you don't solve vision it's not solved so that that's why our focus is so heavily on having a vision neural net that's very effective for road conditions." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv7qL1mcxcw&feature=youtu.be&t=14m02s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv7qL1mcxcw&feature=youtu.be...
- loceng 9y ago
  It's interesting if you consider we have 2 eyes [cameras] and we drive under all conditions, and under bad driving conditions - if you're sane - you slow down or even completely stop and pull over with your 4-ways on. When I've been in very heavy rain downpours on the highway, it feels like I'm only driving because I'm able to follow the flow of lights in front of me as having a bunch of guidance points - autonomous vehicles could likely do a much safer job of this..

elmar 9y ago

Tesla’s new self-driving car can only make you money on the ride-sharing ‘Tesla Network’, not Uber or Lyft (2016) https://electrek.co/2016/10/19/teslas-new-self-driving-car-can-only-make-you-money-on-the-ride-sharing-tesla-network-not-uber-or-lyft/ https://electrek.co/2016/10/19/teslas-new-self-driving-car-c... that is the bigest challenge for Uber if tesla decides to completely integrate vertically and as a big fleet.

philsit 9y ago

What does LDP stand for?

Eridrus 9y ago

> I don't take Elon as a person to lie But we all know he will exaggerate to the point of being misleading.