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> The identity politics and pushing "undocumented" migrants angle Could you elaborate on this "going bananas"? > While the right seem to be business as usual.

by croon 9y ago

> The identity politics and pushing "undocumented" migrants angle Could you elaborate on this "going bananas"? > While the right seem to be business as usual. * Pushing through Gorsuch using nuclear option * Trying to deprive 10s of millions of people of healthcare multiple times without even publicly showing the proposed bill(s) * Banning cameras and reporters from briefings * Electing a GOP congressman one DAY AFTER assaulting a reporter, on live tape. * The president contradicting generals and trying to incite wars over twitter, and the GOP majority congress and senate letting it slide. Time after time, after time. * etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. You're either trolling or your calibration for "business as usual" is sincerely fucked up.

humanrebar 9y ago
I'm not seeing a connections here. What does healthcare policy have to do with a racist murdering people with his car and the President's bizarre delay in condemning the incident?
zimpenfish 9y ago
> * Electing a GOP congressman one DAY AFTER assaulting a reporter, on live tape. To be fair, something like 30-35% of votes were cast in that election before the assault (postal, early, etc.) (What should have happened is that he was then ejected from the party and the election re-run. But that would require honour and dignity from the GOP...)
throwawaymanbot 9y ago
This person is trolling. I could not figure out what they were trying to say. And anything I could I know to be wrong.
mantas 9y ago
> > The identity politics and pushing "undocumented" migrants angle > Could you elaborate on this "going bananas"? In most of Europe a major party advocating for legalising illegal migrants or opening borders doesn't stand a chance. This is why migrants vs refugees discussion is huge in Europe. People are OK to help refugees but most people don't want unlimited uneducated immigrants. The difference is what people see as refugees. In Western Europe, only extreme left (= greens and communists) advocate for open borders or legalising illegals. In Eastern Europe, such discussion is completely off the table. > * Trying to deprive 10s of millions of people of healthcare multiple times without even publicly showing the proposed bill(s) US healthcare look 100% fucked up. Be it Obamacare or post or pre that. I don't see how GOP stance changed on this. They always were fucked up in this regard, they still are. Thus business as usual. > * Banning cameras and reporters from briefings > * Electing a GOP congressman one DAY AFTER assaulting a reporter, on live tape. > * The president contradicting generals and trying to incite wars over twitter, and the GOP majority congress and senate letting it slide. Time after time, after time. I was talking about overall left vs right tendencies, not about single politicians. GOP was weird a decade ago, it still is now. Democrats went full retard IMO. I can't see what was going on their minds to push HRC. She's probably the only person that could have lost to Trump and, well, she did! I'd love to see Trump vs. Sanders election in parallel universe. IMO he'd have better chance. It was pretty clear that public wants "non-establishment" candidate. HRC is as establishment as it gets. Sanders is less establishment than Trump with his business history.
- matwood 9y ago
  > In most of Europe a major party advocating for legalising illegal migrants or opening borders doesn't stand a chance. This is why migrants vs refugees discussion is huge in Europe. People are OK to help refugees but most people don't want unlimited uneducated immigrants. The difference is what people see as refugees. In Western Europe, only extreme left (= greens and communists) advocate for open borders or legalising illegals. In Eastern Europe, such discussion is completely off the table. It's interesting you bring this up, because it was a surprise to me when I first heard it from Europeans I spoke with while traveling. Of course it's anecdata, but immigration is a huge deal in Europe and many want it severely limited. The US is routinely painted as racist and xenophobic (and I think on average incorrectly), but Europe if far from a magically enlightened place. And, depending what ethnic group is trying to immigrate into what country, Europeans can be worse than many Americans. > I'd love to see Trump vs. Sanders election in parallel universe. I think Sanders would have won. He gave populism a voice without the Trump baggage. I think socially, Sanders would have done wonders for the US.
  - mantas 9y ago
    Well, Europe is much more enlightened in terms of labour protection or healthcare. I'm classical liberal sometimes nearing libertarian and I adore American freedom of speech and some parts of work culture. But I'll defend single-payer healthcare and sane labour protection to death. But on immigration front.. Europe is built on nation states and that won't change for at least several generations, regardless of what media is saying. I think the main difference is US have problem with underclass of different ethnicity. Thus differences are very stark. Poverty amplifies differences and you get the endless loop. Being homogenous, Europe didn't have have such problem until now. There was no place for such issues to come up. Jews may have been somewhat similar case. But they were relatively educated and rich. Which, while bringing in it's own set of issues, covered a lot of other issues. However, several countries are headed on US path. Personally I don't see how uneducated migrants can get to median life in a generation or two. Especially with less and less industry and more automation. Different culture and poverty is highway to US style racism/xenophoby/etc. This is one of the main reasons why I'm against migration. Today's Europe can't give good life (by Euro standards) to millions of uneducated people from different cultures. Importing people and then keeping them as underclass is not good neither to newcomers, nor to host countries.

by croon 9y ago

humanrebar 9y ago

I'm not seeing a connections here. What does healthcare policy have to do with a racist murdering people with his car and the President's bizarre delay in condemning the incident?

zimpenfish 9y ago

> * Electing a GOP congressman one DAY AFTER assaulting a reporter, on live tape. To be fair, something like 30-35% of votes were cast in that election before the assault (postal, early, etc.) (What should have happened is that he was then ejected from the party and the election re-run. But that would require honour and dignity from the GOP...)

throwawaymanbot 9y ago

This person is trolling. I could not figure out what they were trying to say. And anything I could I know to be wrong.

mantas 9y ago

> > The identity politics and pushing "undocumented" migrants angle > Could you elaborate on this "going bananas"? In most of Europe a major party advocating for legalising illegal migrants or opening borders doesn't stand a chance. This is why migrants vs refugees discussion is huge in Europe. People are OK to help refugees but most people don't want unlimited uneducated immigrants. The difference is what people see as refugees. In Western Europe, only extreme left (= greens and communists) advocate for open borders or legalising illegals. In Eastern Europe, such discussion is completely off the table. > * Trying to deprive 10s of millions of people of healthcare multiple times without even publicly showing the proposed bill(s) US healthcare look 100% fucked up. Be it Obamacare or post or pre that. I don't see how GOP stance changed on this. They always were fucked up in this regard, they still are. Thus business as usual. > * Banning cameras and reporters from briefings > * Electing a GOP congressman one DAY AFTER assaulting a reporter, on live tape. > * The president contradicting generals and trying to incite wars over twitter, and the GOP majority congress and senate letting it slide. Time after time, after time. I was talking about overall left vs right tendencies, not about single politicians. GOP was weird a decade ago, it still is now. Democrats went full retard IMO. I can't see what was going on their minds to push HRC. She's probably the only person that could have lost to Trump and, well, she did! I'd love to see Trump vs. Sanders election in parallel universe. IMO he'd have better chance. It was pretty clear that public wants "non-establishment" candidate. HRC is as establishment as it gets. Sanders is less establishment than Trump with his business history.

matwood 9y ago
> In most of Europe a major party advocating for legalising illegal migrants or opening borders doesn't stand a chance. This is why migrants vs refugees discussion is huge in Europe. People are OK to help refugees but most people don't want unlimited uneducated immigrants. The difference is what people see as refugees. In Western Europe, only extreme left (= greens and communists) advocate for open borders or legalising illegals. In Eastern Europe, such discussion is completely off the table. It's interesting you bring this up, because it was a surprise to me when I first heard it from Europeans I spoke with while traveling. Of course it's anecdata, but immigration is a huge deal in Europe and many want it severely limited. The US is routinely painted as racist and xenophobic (and I think on average incorrectly), but Europe if far from a magically enlightened place. And, depending what ethnic group is trying to immigrate into what country, Europeans can be worse than many Americans. > I'd love to see Trump vs. Sanders election in parallel universe. I think Sanders would have won. He gave populism a voice without the Trump baggage. I think socially, Sanders would have done wonders for the US.
- mantas 9y ago
  Well, Europe is much more enlightened in terms of labour protection or healthcare. I'm classical liberal sometimes nearing libertarian and I adore American freedom of speech and some parts of work culture. But I'll defend single-payer healthcare and sane labour protection to death. But on immigration front.. Europe is built on nation states and that won't change for at least several generations, regardless of what media is saying. I think the main difference is US have problem with underclass of different ethnicity. Thus differences are very stark. Poverty amplifies differences and you get the endless loop. Being homogenous, Europe didn't have have such problem until now. There was no place for such issues to come up. Jews may have been somewhat similar case. But they were relatively educated and rich. Which, while bringing in it's own set of issues, covered a lot of other issues. However, several countries are headed on US path. Personally I don't see how uneducated migrants can get to median life in a generation or two. Especially with less and less industry and more automation. Different culture and poverty is highway to US style racism/xenophoby/etc. This is one of the main reasons why I'm against migration. Today's Europe can't give good life (by Euro standards) to millions of uneducated people from different cultures. Importing people and then keeping them as underclass is not good neither to newcomers, nor to host countries.