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I've come to accept this with regards to sexist/racist thoughts. Once you realize that it is a normal, ingrained biological urge to have these thoughts as a res

I've come to accept this with regards to sexist/racist thoughts. Once you realize that it is a normal, ingrained biological urge to have these thoughts as a result of human evolution and cultural conditioning, it frees you to stop "feeling bad" about having those thoughts and trying to block them out, so that you can objectively assess the flawed assumptions behind them and reason yourself past them without the need for self shaming.

colordrops 9y ago
This is a great insight (at least for me) and has shed light on a problem I've been grappling with for a long time. Thank you.
minikites 9y ago
When you hear something new, your first reaction is what you've been taught. Your reaction to that reaction is what you have learned.
notgood 9y ago
Looking at a young woman and the first thing that clicks on my head its asking and answering "is she attractive?" in a matter of milliseconds; its annoying as hell... why can't my first through be something more interesting? or at least why can't it be nothing at all so it doesn't interrupt my thinking? but I have come to realize that this is a more of a hormonal reflex than what we usually consider "a thought"; an annoying reflex which exists in a lot of other species as well, not just humans. I have noticed this reflex only weakens when I'm feeling depressed or other strong negative emotions; which I guess makes a lot of sense in an evolutionary context.
- davidreiss 9y ago
  Why is it annoying? Who told you that you need to feel bad?
  - tpallarino 9y ago
    I understand why you're getting downvoted but I think this is a really good point.
  - rtpg 9y ago
    By having those sorts of thoughts, you are privileging that aspect of them over any other sort of accomplishments they might have. They have less opportunity to present themselves in the way they would like to. Imagine if everyone around you in your workplace would think about how you're dressed instead of what you're actually trying to talk to them about.
    - 3131s 9y ago
      Women have the same instinctive reaction to attractive men though. I do agree everyone should be aware of how attractiveness can influence their perception of another person, but I don't feel guilty about noticing whether a woman is attractive or not and I definitely am not going to make a futile attempt to prevent it.
      - rtpg 9y ago
        We live in a society where this issue affects women way more than it does men (see Clinton getting lectured at about not constantly smiling). Bringing this up is part of a fight to reduce systemic bias.
        3131s 9y ago
        I get that and generally agree. I am more challenging the idea of feeling bad / guilty about sexual attraction, which I interpreted as being implied by some of the other comments in this thread.
        Boothroid 9y ago
        I think you are arguing against biology.
    - Boothroid 9y ago
- Banthum 9y ago
  Radical feminist, or hyper-devout Christian? I can't even conclusively tell the difference any more.
  - vanderreeah 9y ago
    Or perhaps someone who doesn't want their valuation of other human beings to be solely based on criteria which are instilled by a mixture of: a) a centuries-long ingrained conception of women as possessions and b) (if you insist) evolutionary priorities.
    - Banthum 9y ago
      These two things are not the same. A) Noticing a woman's beauty when you first encounter her. B) Making a 'valuation' of a woman 'solely' based on her looks. What's really deeply disturbing about the above is the mind-control aspect, driven by shame. Not only must you censor your words, but you must also hate yourself for your involuntary thoughts. This is total ideological possession, as Peterson puts it. And it's so, so familiar. I swear, soon enough progressive men will be wearing chastity belts to help banish impure thoughts, or hair shirts to make up for their privilege. I am not even sure I'm joking.
      - vanderreeah 9y ago
        Ok, let's set aside the object of this "mind-control", i.e. the whole theme around men's attitudes to women, because we're not going to agree on that I guess. This is to be expected. But what I don't understand is your unwillingness to accept that it's sometimes ok to feel shame or the need to self-censor when one has certain thoughts. Is "mind-control", as you put it, always bad? Is one not allowed sometimes (not always) to attempt to regulate one's thoughts according to the guidance of a sector of society one respects (whoever that may be)? Indeed (though this is extreme) can one not even sometimes hate oneself for one's involuntary thoughts (depending on what they are, of course)? I understand you're linking this to the case of finding women attractive, but your post also seems to suggest that any kind of self-regulation, second-thoughts, self-criticism, is "ideological possession". Surely you don't believe that.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- olau 9y ago
  I can understand why you find it annoying. Instead of being annoyed, perhaps you can find joy in watching what your mind perceives as beauty, just like people look at cars or sunsets? My grandmother always used to live up when she saw us and complimented us on our looks, although I'm sure they were nothing spectacular. After having children myself, I'm beginning to understand her - there's something satisfying watching other people. I think we should accept those joys we receive for free here in life.
- amelius 9y ago
  Women can enter into a friendship with a man perfectly well, but to maintain it - a little physical antipathy is required. -- Friedrich Nietzsche
wvh 9y ago
I agree, and rephrasing the problem in different ways often helps to define what it is in you that bothers you about/in others. Your feelings are not wrong, but it would do well to understand them as clearly as possible, in the first place, for your own benefit. Being at home in your own mind is a life-long project. To cut through your own BS can be both extremely hard and satisfying.
fredley 9y ago
Accepting thoughts is key for me. If you ever try a meditation course, one concept you tackle is the idea of not fighting your own thoughts, you just let them be, watch them go through your head, and don't worry about them. You're free to analyse them later, but don't try and not think them, or get angry for thinking them. This helps with all sorts of things (e.g. you can't sleep because your head is full of thoughts, but getting angry and frustrated at them makes it worse!), and also with parent's situation. If you haven't tried a meditation/mindfulness course, I can recommend it. As a session at the gym helps keep your body fit and helps prevent injury, a little time spent meditation keeps your mind healthy, and can help you stay on top of your thoughts.

colordrops 9y ago

This is a great insight (at least for me) and has shed light on a problem I've been grappling with for a long time. Thank you.

minikites 9y ago

When you hear something new, your first reaction is what you've been taught. Your reaction to that reaction is what you have learned.

notgood 9y ago

Looking at a young woman and the first thing that clicks on my head its asking and answering "is she attractive?" in a matter of milliseconds; its annoying as hell... why can't my first through be something more interesting? or at least why can't it be nothing at all so it doesn't interrupt my thinking? but I have come to realize that this is a more of a hormonal reflex than what we usually consider "a thought"; an annoying reflex which exists in a lot of other species as well, not just humans. I have noticed this reflex only weakens when I'm feeling depressed or other strong negative emotions; which I guess makes a lot of sense in an evolutionary context.

davidreiss 9y ago
Why is it annoying? Who told you that you need to feel bad?
- tpallarino 9y ago
  I understand why you're getting downvoted but I think this is a really good point.
- rtpg 9y ago
  By having those sorts of thoughts, you are privileging that aspect of them over any other sort of accomplishments they might have. They have less opportunity to present themselves in the way they would like to. Imagine if everyone around you in your workplace would think about how you're dressed instead of what you're actually trying to talk to them about.
  - 3131s 9y ago
    Women have the same instinctive reaction to attractive men though. I do agree everyone should be aware of how attractiveness can influence their perception of another person, but I don't feel guilty about noticing whether a woman is attractive or not and I definitely am not going to make a futile attempt to prevent it.
    - rtpg 9y ago
      We live in a society where this issue affects women way more than it does men (see Clinton getting lectured at about not constantly smiling). Bringing this up is part of a fight to reduce systemic bias.
      - 3131s 9y ago
        I get that and generally agree. I am more challenging the idea of feeling bad / guilty about sexual attraction, which I interpreted as being implied by some of the other comments in this thread.
      - Boothroid 9y ago
        I think you are arguing against biology.
  - Boothroid 9y ago
Banthum 9y ago
Radical feminist, or hyper-devout Christian? I can't even conclusively tell the difference any more.
- vanderreeah 9y ago
  Or perhaps someone who doesn't want their valuation of other human beings to be solely based on criteria which are instilled by a mixture of: a) a centuries-long ingrained conception of women as possessions and b) (if you insist) evolutionary priorities.
  - Banthum 9y ago
    These two things are not the same. A) Noticing a woman's beauty when you first encounter her. B) Making a 'valuation' of a woman 'solely' based on her looks. What's really deeply disturbing about the above is the mind-control aspect, driven by shame. Not only must you censor your words, but you must also hate yourself for your involuntary thoughts. This is total ideological possession, as Peterson puts it. And it's so, so familiar. I swear, soon enough progressive men will be wearing chastity belts to help banish impure thoughts, or hair shirts to make up for their privilege. I am not even sure I'm joking.
    - vanderreeah 9y ago
      Ok, let's set aside the object of this "mind-control", i.e. the whole theme around men's attitudes to women, because we're not going to agree on that I guess. This is to be expected. But what I don't understand is your unwillingness to accept that it's sometimes ok to feel shame or the need to self-censor when one has certain thoughts. Is "mind-control", as you put it, always bad? Is one not allowed sometimes (not always) to attempt to regulate one's thoughts according to the guidance of a sector of society one respects (whoever that may be)? Indeed (though this is extreme) can one not even sometimes hate oneself for one's involuntary thoughts (depending on what they are, of course)? I understand you're linking this to the case of finding women attractive, but your post also seems to suggest that any kind of self-regulation, second-thoughts, self-criticism, is "ideological possession". Surely you don't believe that.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
olau 9y ago
I can understand why you find it annoying. Instead of being annoyed, perhaps you can find joy in watching what your mind perceives as beauty, just like people look at cars or sunsets? My grandmother always used to live up when she saw us and complimented us on our looks, although I'm sure they were nothing spectacular. After having children myself, I'm beginning to understand her - there's something satisfying watching other people. I think we should accept those joys we receive for free here in life.
amelius 9y ago
Women can enter into a friendship with a man perfectly well, but to maintain it - a little physical antipathy is required. -- Friedrich Nietzsche

wvh 9y ago

I agree, and rephrasing the problem in different ways often helps to define what it is in you that bothers you about/in others. Your feelings are not wrong, but it would do well to understand them as clearly as possible, in the first place, for your own benefit. Being at home in your own mind is a life-long project. To cut through your own BS can be both extremely hard and satisfying.

fredley 9y ago

Accepting thoughts is key for me. If you ever try a meditation course, one concept you tackle is the idea of not fighting your own thoughts, you just let them be, watch them go through your head, and don't worry about them. You're free to analyse them later, but don't try and not think them, or get angry for thinking them. This helps with all sorts of things (e.g. you can't sleep because your head is full of thoughts, but getting angry and frustrated at them makes it worse!), and also with parent's situation. If you haven't tried a meditation/mindfulness course, I can recommend it. As a session at the gym helps keep your body fit and helps prevent injury, a little time spent meditation keeps your mind healthy, and can help you stay on top of your thoughts.