14 ms·

‘Instantly rechargeable’ battery could change the future of electric automobiles

117 points by tacon 9y ago

StavrosK 9y ago
Oh look, another revolutionary battery technology.
- deegles 9y ago
  Just once I wish one of these headlines would end with " and is coming to market soon!"
  - gordon_freeman 9y ago
    I feel your anticipation. But I think the more such experiments happen, the more we as consumers would accelerate towards zero emission transportation future. As it stands, time to charge battery (especially on long road trips)is one of the factors discouraging consumers to adopt electric vehicles.
- gist 9y ago
  Hard to believe that Tesla isn't working on something like this.
- Animats 9y ago
  Right. This is a flow battery/fuel cell; you change the liquids rather than recharging it in place. The new feature is that this doesn't use a membrane to separate the two liquids. They're immiscible and one is denser, so they stay separate, in layers. Why this doesn't short out at the liquid interface isn't clear. There are commercial flow batteries that use membranes.[1] One uses zinc-iron. The energy storage capacity is limited only by tank capacity, so you can fill big tanks using solar power or wind and draw it out later. Typical system is 288 kW/960 kWh, and occupies 6 shipping containers. [1] https://www.viznenergy.com/product-gs200/ https://www.viznenergy.com/product-gs200/
  - ars 9y ago
    > Why this doesn't short out at the liquid interface isn't clear. The same reason metal does not rust without water (the metal/oxygen is touching after all without a membrane) - you need a second path for the electricity, which is what the water does. (The water does not chemically do anything - it simply acts as a wire.)
  - ada1981 9y ago
    So they are pumped into the system in suspension and then settle into two layers? I'm having visions of the battery liquid sloshing around while driving. This seems neat, though I think often academics solve one problem in a lab and then imagine a whole string of other problems will easily be solved to get their product to market. The guy said the biggest problem is "man power". I'm skeptical of this claim. They haven't built anything other than a table top demo -- I'd of liked to see them build a unit that could power something significant. Stick one in a golf cart at least. But neat and inspiring nonetheless.
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- hinkley 9y ago
  A revolutionary battery technology involving vodka.
aeleos 9y ago
This is pretty cool. The general idea is that a gas station dispenses a water and ethanol solution that acts as the electrolyte and provides energy for the battery. And then recharging is done by reprocessing the electrolyte with renewable energies. If this turns out to be a technology that can work well on large scales, it could really be a game changer.
- jonshariat 9y ago
  Trying to understand this from a customer's point of view: 1. would this be dispensed just gas? Pull up, pay, and pump it in? 2. But in this case you would also pump the old stuff out? 3. Is there any "prep" time needed for the solution? aka charging
  - aeleos 9y ago
    1 and 2 I think so, 3. The stuff that comes out of the pump is ready to use, the old stuff needs to be "recharged" to be usable again
- mikeash 9y ago
  Can you also recharge it in the battery with electricity, or do you have to go to a special station? The ability to "fill up" at home is one of the great advantages of EVs, although I realize a lot of people can't do that.
  - ekianjo 9y ago
    when it comes to traveling its a big drawback. You need quick charging stations and tesla even admits the lines are getting long.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      In California, maybe, but they're ok otherwise. I have a Tesla, and if I had to make a choice between a traditional battery and a battery I can fill instantly but can't fill at home, I'd take the traditional battery without hesitation. Faster charging on trips would be nice, but not worrying about it the rest of the time is even nicer.
daotoad 9y ago
Too bad the nifty techno-in-a-can synth diddling in the video drowns out the inventor talking about his technology.
ars 9y ago
Quick summary: It's a flow battery[1]. Replace the liquid with fresh liquid and you are recharged. This one is different by not having a membrane. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery
- tedsanders 9y ago
  Question: Why is this a flow battery and not a fuel cell? My impression is that the difference between flow batteries and fuel cells is that flow batteries are closed systems whereas fuel cells are open systems. Since this can be refueled, it sounds like an open system. Edit: Your linked Wikipedia article answers my question. "A flow battery is a rechargeable fuel cell." I guess the distinction is not closed vs open, but rechargeable vs unspecified.
  - ars 9y ago
    I think a fuel cell is distinct by having the oxidizer be from the environment, and not within it. A flow battery is completely self contained. Getting your oxidizer from the environment obviously helps with weight, but it comes with its own set of problems since it's hard to control purity. The wikipedia definition kinda touches on this. Since everything is contained in the battery you can recharge it with just electricity. In contrast a fuel cell will emit the waste (water usually), so you no longer have the raw material to recharge it anymore. (Although obviously you can just make more by collecting it from the environment - think emit the water, then electrolyze other water to recharge the battery.)
- ChuckMcM 9y ago
  Yes, and this bit might make you pause : "'We are at a stage in the company’s growth that we are looking for additional financing to build large-scale prototypes and subsequently manufacturing partners,' Cushman said." The whole "Breakthrough! Just add money!" thing is really tiresome not because it would be wonderful if it was as simple as just adding money, but because so very many people have abused it when they really had no idea at all about what the issues were with their technology. I like the concept of flow batteries, and have read a number of interesting papers over the years on them. They solve a number of problems if you can get them to work and the instant recharge is perhaps the best one. That said, a very good flow battery demonstrator project would be a set of solar panels (cheap these days), continually pumping electrolyte from a reservoir and 'charging' it (inverting its oxidation reaction). Coupled to a flow battery and a constant load. If you can't build that, and show that by putting 'nX' load of solar cells in the loop, and continually run the base load 24x7, then you've got the basis for an actual breakthrough. Even doing it for a small "meaningless" load like 50 watts (1.2kWh / day), you will have demonstrated not only that your battery works but that it can be combined in a system that currently requires "previous generation" batteries. And from that demonstrator you can make educated guesses about how much maintenance would be required for a larger scale system, how well the system performs 24x7, how to maintain it while it is operating, Etc. Then you can say, for $X we estimate we could run a typical house off grid. For $Y we estimate we could provide Z MWhr of base load. If you can't build the 50W system though, it is unlikely you can build any system yet.
mjevans 9y ago
The problems that I see with this: * Refueling requires hooking up and exchanging hazardous materials (fluids). * This assumes that there's a single universal electrolyte fluid. * Variability in fluid quality / consistency (across areas and batches) / return materials fraud are problems. * The less sealed nature of the batteries is probably a safety hazard (increased crash/fire risk, etc). I think that the public would be better served by standardizing on a few /types/ of battery packs as physical interfaces, and having rapid 'tank replacement' stations (robots) and leased battery packs. Innovation in storage tech and/or picking a pack sized for the expected use would allow for improvements and competition as well as changes in technology.
- ethagknight 9y ago
  For 3/4 of your concerns, kinda like gasoline?
  - TallGuyShort 9y ago
    Still has a point regarding the potential superiority of battery exchange programs. Gasoline isn't exactly the holy grail of fuels :)
  - mjevans 9y ago
    Gasoline is mostly just flammable (and the vapor /slightly/ explosive). We'd need to know more about what type of chemicals are used in this battery, but glancing at what's involved for 'flow batteries' I'd make a /slightly/ educated guess that these would all be considered 'industrial' materials. You might see a public bus using them, but I doubt it would be safe to allow the average driver to self-refuel.
    - undersuit 9y ago
      The average driver refills their vehicle using decades old technology which would probably be unsuited for exchanging the fluid these batteries would need. Any kind of system for exchanging the fluid in a flow battery would probably be self contained and would be better designed than holding a lever on a nozzle dumping a flammable liquid into an empty vessel.
calebsurfs 9y ago
What is the energy density of a flow battery like this? It's hard to imagine it is anywhere near gasoline or a lithium ion battery.
- mjevans 9y ago
  Read the (currently) top post by Ars linking to the Wikipedia page. There's a table of the currently known public chemistries near the bottom. There are applications with better power density than Lithium based batteries (at the electrodes), but I don't know about how an overall solution would compare to a gasoline setup. I think the only fair comparison in such a case would be to have a roughly standard car design and compare complete solutions (currently common petrol / diesel depending on vehicle size, hybrid (electric), full electric (batteries / 'flow batteries' of different types)).
nathan_f77 9y ago
This sounds interesting. It got me thinking about some other ideas. What about solar panels on the roof? I found this article [1], and Elon Musk has said they'll "probably offer it as an option" [2]. I wonder how many extra miles you could get with that. If nothing else, it would be nice to know that you could slowly recharge your battery if you get stuck in the middle of nowhere. Another idea - highways where you could drive while recharging. Maybe something similar to train tracks, or an overhead wire. Or wireless power transfer through the wheels, if that would be possible? (I don't think it is.) [1] https://thinkprogress.org/prius-solar-roof-breakthrough-2b929f467061/ https://thinkprogress.org/prius-solar-roof-breakthrough-2b92... [2] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/794575003446480896 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/794575003446480896
- Xeoncross 9y ago
  Solar panels charge really slowly compared to how much energy is needed to move a car. I'm probably totally wrong here, but if the whole car was solar panels I would expect 600 watt to be generated. An electric car would need that for 0.8hrs or so to move one mile (0.44 kWh/mile?) plus acceleration.
  - dangero 9y ago
    Still seems worth it for a slight efficiency gain plus the ability to gain charge just by waiting if you run out of juice in the middle of nowhere.
    - tempestn 9y ago
      Another issue is that most people prefer to have a sunroof on their car. (Ideally a large, panoramic one, as Teslas have.) Can't really do that with solar panels.
  - mikestew 9y ago
    Our Nissan Leaf does (give or take) 4 miles/kWh, or 0.25 kWh/mile, FWIW. I did the math one time, or someone else did, I forget. Anyway, cover the roof of the Leaf with panels and it would make a negligible difference in range. In a fit of dreaming of life off the grid in an RV, I can fit eight 100W panels on the top of our VW camper, and the usable roof on that thing is probably twice what the leaf has.
danans 9y ago
> The greatest hurdle for drivers is the time commitment to keeping their cars fully charged. For a large percentage of common use cases this is not an issue. EV drivers by and large do other valuable things while their vehicles charge, like work and sleep. > Current electric cars need convenient locations built for charging ports. This is only true for apartment dwellers (for now). People who live in houses typically charge at home. > Designing and building enough of these recharging stations requires massive infrastructure development, which means the energy distribution and storage system is being rebuilt at tremendous cost to accommodate the need for continual local battery recharge > Users would be able to drop off the spent electrolytes at gas stations, which would then be sent in bulk to solar farms, wind turbine installations or hydroelectric plants for reconstitution or re-charging into the viable electrolyte and reused many times. How is this fueling and distribution system cheaper or more efficient than the grid plus a bunch of 240v/60a outlets, most of which are already available in home garages. If instant refueling is a really a dire need for someone, they can just get a plugin hybrid (i.e. Chevy Volt) and no new infrastructure needed at all. Edit: removed snarky words
- kuschku 9y ago
  > This is only true for apartment dwellers (for now). People who live in houses typically charge at home. In Germany, over 65% of people rent. So, the supermajority would be affected by this. EDIT: I meant "live in rented apartments". "Miete" implies renting an apartment here, usually.
  - chrisseaton 9y ago
    Why can't you charge in a house that you rent instead of own?
    - mikestew 9y ago
      Because the landlord might take issue with you installing a 220V charger in the house. Why, I would have no idea, since it would seem to add (a minuscule) value to the house. Wait a minute, it's Germany, don't y'all already have 220V/240V/whatever it takes? In which case, yeah, I guess you could just plug into an outlet and charge just as quickly as I do in my American garage with its special charger because our outlets are 110V.
Paul-ish 9y ago
I am not very knowledgeable about battery technologies. How could you ditch the membrane in a system that is expected to be moving and shaking? (eg a car) Is it not important for the fluids to be separate?
CoffeeDregs 9y ago
Unless I'm misunderstanding how it works, some questions about this idea: * Presumably, you have to fully empty and then fill your tank? Over twice as long to refill as for gasoline/diesel. (Still: not terrible.) * How do you get refunded for your partially used "fuel"? I generally refuel around a quarter of a tank. In this case, that means I'm sending back 25% unused fuel. (Pump it out, analyze the mixture, provide credit? Seems seriously game-able.) * Is the power output constant regardless of charge? Can I get 20kW of output at 25% charge?
- Armisael16 9y ago
  Extracting the fluid is already going to be an interesting task (it seems like it'd probably be uneconomical to suck it out with a vacuum). I can see the cars having separate input and output holes. With a clever design in the car you could probably start refilling while you finish emptying. A recharge should be pretty cheap. The national average cost for electricity is ~13¢/kWh, so refilling a 100 kWh battery would only be $13 of energy. Other costs - storage, maintenance, labor, land, etc - add to that, but you still aren't out that much. It's possible that you just pay full price regardless, since they are giving you totally fresh solution. One of the most important things about flow batteries is that they're basically invariant with charge and scale, so almost certainly (until you really hit the dregs - you probably lose voltage at 4%).
peepopeep 9y ago
They should run an ICO, get funded in minutes.
samstave 9y ago
meh, I care less about "instantly rechargable" as much as I do about "instantly recyclable" * what is lifecycle of batt? * cost (not $ cost, resource cost?) * slave-made? how much trans-national exploitation occurs to produce one such batt?
avs733 9y ago
So maybe this is a biased perspective because I have an existing relationship with Purdue... Purdue, as with MIT, tends to oversell their research a little bit (a lot). The difference is that MIT's overselling is believable whereas Purdue's wreaks of insecurity and overstating as posturing. As others have noted on a technical level...take it with a grain of salt. The current president (and ex-Republicant governor) Mitch Daniels has been pushing a really hard narrative of privatizing the university and its resources for corporate gain. He neeeeeeds this type of thing, whether or not it pans out.
pdimitar 9y ago
I fully understand how such a team might run out of money -- it's not an easy work after all, and takes time. But honestly, for the last 10 or so years, I can't remember even ONE time that I've heard about "revolutionary new battery technology" and it arriving on the market soon after. Or ever. Honestly, what happens to ALL those people? From genius 13-15 year old school students to established scientists -- did anyone try to contact them, say, one year later? I am tempted to think that inventing a possible new revolutionary battery technology is closely correlated to suddenly teleporting far away from Earth. (Not sorry for sarcasm)
- Tade0 9y ago
  Some of them put their product on the market, but quietly. One company I've been watching closely which at the same time has been secretive to say the least: http://www.amprius.com/ http://www.amprius.com/ Their product is a li-ion battery with a silicon anode and apparently it works, because they put it into an actual device: http://www.imei.info/phonedatabase/79823-bluboo-x550/ http://www.imei.info/phonedatabase/79823-bluboo-x550/ (Note the massive 5Ah battery) These guys generated quite a buzz back in the day: https://oxisenergy.com/ https://oxisenergy.com/ For now their product is sort of disappointing, but the lone fact that they harnessed this new chemistry is notable. Last but not least IMO the most promising company among them all: https://www.eosenergystorage.com/ https://www.eosenergystorage.com/ I remember when they were promising 6MWh/1MW stacks and 10k cycles instead of the 4MWh/1MW stacks with a lifespan of 5k cycles they are offering now, but the key thing is they are deploying them as we speak - actually, their total production for 2017 was sold out at the start of this year. These 1MWh stacks are made from 12kWh modules, which sooner or later will be offered to individual customers.
  - pdimitar 9y ago
    Your knowledge is impressive. I am thankful for your sharing it! From I gather from the websites, it seems these companies move to bigger batteries and stuff like making more reliable power supplies for machinery -- maybe partially-off-the-grid homes as well? Does that mean they had no luck in minituarizing their tech to make it viable for smartphones, smartwatches, Bluetooth headsets or car audio systems -- generally a small consumer-grade battery? I very clearly remember at least two separate cases of teenage Indian school students that managed to demonstrate a prototype of a very quick-charging battery that can hold 1000+ mAh, somewhere in the last 5 years. I am absolutely sure I've read such news. However, last I heard about them, some corporation gave them free scholarship in an elite university... and after that, full radio-silence. Really makes me suspicous, you know. What the hell happens to these people? Don't they still want to revolutionize the world as they claimed they wanted to when they were teenagers?

117 points by tacon 9y ago

StavrosK 9y ago

Oh look, another revolutionary battery technology.

deegles 9y ago
Just once I wish one of these headlines would end with " and is coming to market soon!"
- gordon_freeman 9y ago
  I feel your anticipation. But I think the more such experiments happen, the more we as consumers would accelerate towards zero emission transportation future. As it stands, time to charge battery (especially on long road trips)is one of the factors discouraging consumers to adopt electric vehicles.
gist 9y ago
Hard to believe that Tesla isn't working on something like this.
Animats 9y ago
Right. This is a flow battery/fuel cell; you change the liquids rather than recharging it in place. The new feature is that this doesn't use a membrane to separate the two liquids. They're immiscible and one is denser, so they stay separate, in layers. Why this doesn't short out at the liquid interface isn't clear. There are commercial flow batteries that use membranes.[1] One uses zinc-iron. The energy storage capacity is limited only by tank capacity, so you can fill big tanks using solar power or wind and draw it out later. Typical system is 288 kW/960 kWh, and occupies 6 shipping containers. [1] https://www.viznenergy.com/product-gs200/ https://www.viznenergy.com/product-gs200/
- ars 9y ago
  > Why this doesn't short out at the liquid interface isn't clear. The same reason metal does not rust without water (the metal/oxygen is touching after all without a membrane) - you need a second path for the electricity, which is what the water does. (The water does not chemically do anything - it simply acts as a wire.)
- ada1981 9y ago
  So they are pumped into the system in suspension and then settle into two layers? I'm having visions of the battery liquid sloshing around while driving. This seems neat, though I think often academics solve one problem in a lab and then imagine a whole string of other problems will easily be solved to get their product to market. The guy said the biggest problem is "man power". I'm skeptical of this claim. They haven't built anything other than a table top demo -- I'd of liked to see them build a unit that could power something significant. Stick one in a golf cart at least. But neat and inspiring nonetheless.
- deleted 9y ago
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- deleted 9y ago
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hinkley 9y ago
A revolutionary battery technology involving vodka.

aeleos 9y ago

This is pretty cool. The general idea is that a gas station dispenses a water and ethanol solution that acts as the electrolyte and provides energy for the battery. And then recharging is done by reprocessing the electrolyte with renewable energies. If this turns out to be a technology that can work well on large scales, it could really be a game changer.

jonshariat 9y ago
Trying to understand this from a customer's point of view: 1. would this be dispensed just gas? Pull up, pay, and pump it in? 2. But in this case you would also pump the old stuff out? 3. Is there any "prep" time needed for the solution? aka charging
- aeleos 9y ago
  1 and 2 I think so, 3. The stuff that comes out of the pump is ready to use, the old stuff needs to be "recharged" to be usable again
mikeash 9y ago
Can you also recharge it in the battery with electricity, or do you have to go to a special station? The ability to "fill up" at home is one of the great advantages of EVs, although I realize a lot of people can't do that.
- ekianjo 9y ago
  when it comes to traveling its a big drawback. You need quick charging stations and tesla even admits the lines are getting long.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    In California, maybe, but they're ok otherwise. I have a Tesla, and if I had to make a choice between a traditional battery and a battery I can fill instantly but can't fill at home, I'd take the traditional battery without hesitation. Faster charging on trips would be nice, but not worrying about it the rest of the time is even nicer.

daotoad 9y ago

Too bad the nifty techno-in-a-can synth diddling in the video drowns out the inventor talking about his technology.

ars 9y ago

Quick summary: It's a flow battery[1]. Replace the liquid with fresh liquid and you are recharged. This one is different by not having a membrane. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery

tedsanders 9y ago
Question: Why is this a flow battery and not a fuel cell? My impression is that the difference between flow batteries and fuel cells is that flow batteries are closed systems whereas fuel cells are open systems. Since this can be refueled, it sounds like an open system. Edit: Your linked Wikipedia article answers my question. "A flow battery is a rechargeable fuel cell." I guess the distinction is not closed vs open, but rechargeable vs unspecified.
- ars 9y ago
  I think a fuel cell is distinct by having the oxidizer be from the environment, and not within it. A flow battery is completely self contained. Getting your oxidizer from the environment obviously helps with weight, but it comes with its own set of problems since it's hard to control purity. The wikipedia definition kinda touches on this. Since everything is contained in the battery you can recharge it with just electricity. In contrast a fuel cell will emit the waste (water usually), so you no longer have the raw material to recharge it anymore. (Although obviously you can just make more by collecting it from the environment - think emit the water, then electrolyze other water to recharge the battery.)
ChuckMcM 9y ago
Yes, and this bit might make you pause : "'We are at a stage in the company’s growth that we are looking for additional financing to build large-scale prototypes and subsequently manufacturing partners,' Cushman said." The whole "Breakthrough! Just add money!" thing is really tiresome not because it would be wonderful if it was as simple as just adding money, but because so very many people have abused it when they really had no idea at all about what the issues were with their technology. I like the concept of flow batteries, and have read a number of interesting papers over the years on them. They solve a number of problems if you can get them to work and the instant recharge is perhaps the best one. That said, a very good flow battery demonstrator project would be a set of solar panels (cheap these days), continually pumping electrolyte from a reservoir and 'charging' it (inverting its oxidation reaction). Coupled to a flow battery and a constant load. If you can't build that, and show that by putting 'nX' load of solar cells in the loop, and continually run the base load 24x7, then you've got the basis for an actual breakthrough. Even doing it for a small "meaningless" load like 50 watts (1.2kWh / day), you will have demonstrated not only that your battery works but that it can be combined in a system that currently requires "previous generation" batteries. And from that demonstrator you can make educated guesses about how much maintenance would be required for a larger scale system, how well the system performs 24x7, how to maintain it while it is operating, Etc. Then you can say, for $X we estimate we could run a typical house off grid. For $Y we estimate we could provide Z MWhr of base load. If you can't build the 50W system though, it is unlikely you can build any system yet.

mjevans 9y ago

The problems that I see with this: * Refueling requires hooking up and exchanging hazardous materials (fluids). * This assumes that there's a single universal electrolyte fluid. * Variability in fluid quality / consistency (across areas and batches) / return materials fraud are problems. * The less sealed nature of the batteries is probably a safety hazard (increased crash/fire risk, etc). I think that the public would be better served by standardizing on a few /types/ of battery packs as physical interfaces, and having rapid 'tank replacement' stations (robots) and leased battery packs. Innovation in storage tech and/or picking a pack sized for the expected use would allow for improvements and competition as well as changes in technology.

ethagknight 9y ago
For 3/4 of your concerns, kinda like gasoline?
- TallGuyShort 9y ago
  Still has a point regarding the potential superiority of battery exchange programs. Gasoline isn't exactly the holy grail of fuels :)
- mjevans 9y ago
  Gasoline is mostly just flammable (and the vapor /slightly/ explosive). We'd need to know more about what type of chemicals are used in this battery, but glancing at what's involved for 'flow batteries' I'd make a /slightly/ educated guess that these would all be considered 'industrial' materials. You might see a public bus using them, but I doubt it would be safe to allow the average driver to self-refuel.
  - undersuit 9y ago
    The average driver refills their vehicle using decades old technology which would probably be unsuited for exchanging the fluid these batteries would need. Any kind of system for exchanging the fluid in a flow battery would probably be self contained and would be better designed than holding a lever on a nozzle dumping a flammable liquid into an empty vessel.

calebsurfs 9y ago

What is the energy density of a flow battery like this? It's hard to imagine it is anywhere near gasoline or a lithium ion battery.

mjevans 9y ago
Read the (currently) top post by Ars linking to the Wikipedia page. There's a table of the currently known public chemistries near the bottom. There are applications with better power density than Lithium based batteries (at the electrodes), but I don't know about how an overall solution would compare to a gasoline setup. I think the only fair comparison in such a case would be to have a roughly standard car design and compare complete solutions (currently common petrol / diesel depending on vehicle size, hybrid (electric), full electric (batteries / 'flow batteries' of different types)).

nathan_f77 9y ago

This sounds interesting. It got me thinking about some other ideas. What about solar panels on the roof? I found this article [1], and Elon Musk has said they'll "probably offer it as an option" [2]. I wonder how many extra miles you could get with that. If nothing else, it would be nice to know that you could slowly recharge your battery if you get stuck in the middle of nowhere. Another idea - highways where you could drive while recharging. Maybe something similar to train tracks, or an overhead wire. Or wireless power transfer through the wheels, if that would be possible? (I don't think it is.) [1] https://thinkprogress.org/prius-solar-roof-breakthrough-2b929f467061/ https://thinkprogress.org/prius-solar-roof-breakthrough-2b92... [2] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/794575003446480896 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/794575003446480896

Xeoncross 9y ago
Solar panels charge really slowly compared to how much energy is needed to move a car. I'm probably totally wrong here, but if the whole car was solar panels I would expect 600 watt to be generated. An electric car would need that for 0.8hrs or so to move one mile (0.44 kWh/mile?) plus acceleration.
- dangero 9y ago
  Still seems worth it for a slight efficiency gain plus the ability to gain charge just by waiting if you run out of juice in the middle of nowhere.
  - tempestn 9y ago
    Another issue is that most people prefer to have a sunroof on their car. (Ideally a large, panoramic one, as Teslas have.) Can't really do that with solar panels.
- mikestew 9y ago
  Our Nissan Leaf does (give or take) 4 miles/kWh, or 0.25 kWh/mile, FWIW. I did the math one time, or someone else did, I forget. Anyway, cover the roof of the Leaf with panels and it would make a negligible difference in range. In a fit of dreaming of life off the grid in an RV, I can fit eight 100W panels on the top of our VW camper, and the usable roof on that thing is probably twice what the leaf has.

danans 9y ago

> The greatest hurdle for drivers is the time commitment to keeping their cars fully charged. For a large percentage of common use cases this is not an issue. EV drivers by and large do other valuable things while their vehicles charge, like work and sleep. > Current electric cars need convenient locations built for charging ports. This is only true for apartment dwellers (for now). People who live in houses typically charge at home. > Designing and building enough of these recharging stations requires massive infrastructure development, which means the energy distribution and storage system is being rebuilt at tremendous cost to accommodate the need for continual local battery recharge > Users would be able to drop off the spent electrolytes at gas stations, which would then be sent in bulk to solar farms, wind turbine installations or hydroelectric plants for reconstitution or re-charging into the viable electrolyte and reused many times. How is this fueling and distribution system cheaper or more efficient than the grid plus a bunch of 240v/60a outlets, most of which are already available in home garages. If instant refueling is a really a dire need for someone, they can just get a plugin hybrid (i.e. Chevy Volt) and no new infrastructure needed at all. Edit: removed snarky words

kuschku 9y ago
> This is only true for apartment dwellers (for now). People who live in houses typically charge at home. In Germany, over 65% of people rent. So, the supermajority would be affected by this. EDIT: I meant "live in rented apartments". "Miete" implies renting an apartment here, usually.
- chrisseaton 9y ago
  Why can't you charge in a house that you rent instead of own?
  - mikestew 9y ago
    Because the landlord might take issue with you installing a 220V charger in the house. Why, I would have no idea, since it would seem to add (a minuscule) value to the house. Wait a minute, it's Germany, don't y'all already have 220V/240V/whatever it takes? In which case, yeah, I guess you could just plug into an outlet and charge just as quickly as I do in my American garage with its special charger because our outlets are 110V.

Paul-ish 9y ago

I am not very knowledgeable about battery technologies. How could you ditch the membrane in a system that is expected to be moving and shaking? (eg a car) Is it not important for the fluids to be separate?

CoffeeDregs 9y ago

Unless I'm misunderstanding how it works, some questions about this idea: * Presumably, you have to fully empty and then fill your tank? Over twice as long to refill as for gasoline/diesel. (Still: not terrible.) * How do you get refunded for your partially used "fuel"? I generally refuel around a quarter of a tank. In this case, that means I'm sending back 25% unused fuel. (Pump it out, analyze the mixture, provide credit? Seems seriously game-able.) * Is the power output constant regardless of charge? Can I get 20kW of output at 25% charge?

Armisael16 9y ago
Extracting the fluid is already going to be an interesting task (it seems like it'd probably be uneconomical to suck it out with a vacuum). I can see the cars having separate input and output holes. With a clever design in the car you could probably start refilling while you finish emptying. A recharge should be pretty cheap. The national average cost for electricity is ~13¢/kWh, so refilling a 100 kWh battery would only be $13 of energy. Other costs - storage, maintenance, labor, land, etc - add to that, but you still aren't out that much. It's possible that you just pay full price regardless, since they are giving you totally fresh solution. One of the most important things about flow batteries is that they're basically invariant with charge and scale, so almost certainly (until you really hit the dregs - you probably lose voltage at 4%).

peepopeep 9y ago

They should run an ICO, get funded in minutes.

samstave 9y ago

meh, I care less about "instantly rechargable" as much as I do about "instantly recyclable" * what is lifecycle of batt? * cost (not $ cost, resource cost?) * slave-made? how much trans-national exploitation occurs to produce one such batt?

avs733 9y ago

So maybe this is a biased perspective because I have an existing relationship with Purdue... Purdue, as with MIT, tends to oversell their research a little bit (a lot). The difference is that MIT's overselling is believable whereas Purdue's wreaks of insecurity and overstating as posturing. As others have noted on a technical level...take it with a grain of salt. The current president (and ex-Republicant governor) Mitch Daniels has been pushing a really hard narrative of privatizing the university and its resources for corporate gain. He neeeeeeds this type of thing, whether or not it pans out.

pdimitar 9y ago

I fully understand how such a team might run out of money -- it's not an easy work after all, and takes time. But honestly, for the last 10 or so years, I can't remember even ONE time that I've heard about "revolutionary new battery technology" and it arriving on the market soon after. Or ever. Honestly, what happens to ALL those people? From genius 13-15 year old school students to established scientists -- did anyone try to contact them, say, one year later? I am tempted to think that inventing a possible new revolutionary battery technology is closely correlated to suddenly teleporting far away from Earth. (Not sorry for sarcasm)

Tade0 9y ago
Some of them put their product on the market, but quietly. One company I've been watching closely which at the same time has been secretive to say the least: http://www.amprius.com/ http://www.amprius.com/ Their product is a li-ion battery with a silicon anode and apparently it works, because they put it into an actual device: http://www.imei.info/phonedatabase/79823-bluboo-x550/ http://www.imei.info/phonedatabase/79823-bluboo-x550/ (Note the massive 5Ah battery) These guys generated quite a buzz back in the day: https://oxisenergy.com/ https://oxisenergy.com/ For now their product is sort of disappointing, but the lone fact that they harnessed this new chemistry is notable. Last but not least IMO the most promising company among them all: https://www.eosenergystorage.com/ https://www.eosenergystorage.com/ I remember when they were promising 6MWh/1MW stacks and 10k cycles instead of the 4MWh/1MW stacks with a lifespan of 5k cycles they are offering now, but the key thing is they are deploying them as we speak - actually, their total production for 2017 was sold out at the start of this year. These 1MWh stacks are made from 12kWh modules, which sooner or later will be offered to individual customers.
- pdimitar 9y ago
  Your knowledge is impressive. I am thankful for your sharing it! From I gather from the websites, it seems these companies move to bigger batteries and stuff like making more reliable power supplies for machinery -- maybe partially-off-the-grid homes as well? Does that mean they had no luck in minituarizing their tech to make it viable for smartphones, smartwatches, Bluetooth headsets or car audio systems -- generally a small consumer-grade battery? I very clearly remember at least two separate cases of teenage Indian school students that managed to demonstrate a prototype of a very quick-charging battery that can hold 1000+ mAh, somewhere in the last 5 years. I am absolutely sure I've read such news. However, last I heard about them, some corporation gave them free scholarship in an elite university... and after that, full radio-silence. Really makes me suspicous, you know. What the hell happens to these people? Don't they still want to revolutionize the world as they claimed they wanted to when they were teenagers?