25 ms·

We Fight for the Users

290 points by mdesq 9y ago

pottersbasilisk 9y ago
Antifa and the nazis should all be thrown in prison. We dont need political violence and any more escalation. Dont believe me. How about the atlantic? https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/534192/ https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/534192/ How about cnn ? https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/08/14/us/what-is-antifa-trnd/index.html https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/08/14/us/what-is-antifa-trnd/in...
- ebola1717 9y ago
  Ah yes, nazis and the people fighting the nazis are the same. https://mobile.twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312?lang=en https://mobile.twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312?la...
- pacaro 9y ago
  I consider myself antifa in part because my great grandfather was murdered by the Nazis, and I consider it to be part of my social and civil responsibility to oppose fascism. Edit: ¡No pasaran!
  - cyanexttuesday 9y ago
    Go for it but if you're burning down innocents in your mad dash to stop nazis. Don't expect sympathy.
    - pacaro 9y ago
      While many antifa are anarchists or anti-capitalists, the defining feature is opposing fascism. Don't succumb to a trivializing caricature of antifa as being primarily about wanton violence against property.
  - driverdan 9y ago
    Antifa is not just anti-facism. If you go to any of their rallies or counter protests you'll find most are socio-anarchists or communists who don't see anything wrong with violence.
    - pacaro 9y ago
      Ask yourself who is defending the counter protestors when the police are defending the white supremacists, kkk, and other assorted fascists. Historically the police have a poor track record when it comes to choosing sides in the fight against fascism If you think antifa has too many anarchists and communists, maybe it's time to mask up and help
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
daturkel 9y ago
I've never (to my knowledge) had any issues re: legal requests about my site, but I can say that I've been a happy customer of Dreamhost for many years now. Support is quick, friendly, and knowledgeable, and the pricepoint for the product (shared server, web-hosting and domain renewal, unlimited bandwidth and storage) is a no-brainer for me. I'm not surprised to see that the host advocates for its users when it can.
arca_vorago 9y ago
Makes me happy to have been using Dreamhost for over 10 years now. I got in on the my domain crazy insane package, and have mostly gotten along with them. I am still super-angry they took away my squirellmail and forced the webmail into a non-FOSS webmail though.
- nsx147 9y ago
  Same here - same plan since feb 2007
Meekro 9y ago
Free speech is not just a constitutional amendment, it's a cultural value. It happens when DreamHost protects a website that is organizing legal protests, spending more per hour on legal fees than the website will pay over its lifetime. It happens when Cloudflare refuses to cancel service to some of the most disgusting sites on the internet, even though they're on the free plan and Cloudflare has no legal obligation to continue to host them. It happens when reddit fights tooth and nail, at great expense and with no reward forthcoming, to maintain some of the most toxic communities on the internet, only agreeing to close them when there is truly no other choice. It happens when computer scientists invent technologies like tor, freenet, and bitcoin, allowing unpopular groups to get their message out and collect donations, even if the majority would prefer that they be banished. And yes, it even happens when a small ISP steps up to host The Daily Stormer, secure in their knowledge that the best way to contend with such filth is to let the sunlight disinfect it, rather than trying to bottle it up and hoping that bottle never breaks. America is exceptional in its embrace of the cultural value of free speech. However bad we are about it sometimes, the rest of the world (including Western Europe) is much worse. This makes me proud to be an American citizen.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- pupppet 9y ago
  Getting a little tired of these 'exposure will cure-all' type of comments. The only thing accomplished by not quashing sites like Daily Stormer is desensitizing us to them which only leads to legitimizing.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    Getting a little tired of "not all speech should be free" comments. You're trading one brand of facism for another. Don't try to wrap your brand in the appearance of progress. To discuss does not legitimize. If you are fearful of an idea being debated, that says more about you than the idea.
    - 9y ago
arkitaip 9y ago
Anyone care to compare Dreamhost to Webfaction?
thephyber 9y ago
TL;DR: DreamHost was issued a warrant to produce any and all content+logs+metadata about a customer-hosted website that presumably may have been related to violent protests/riots in Washington DC circa Jan 20th (Trump inauguration day). They pushed back on the overly broad nature of the warrant, the DOJ pushed the courts to then "compel" DH to comply.
bkeroack 9y ago
Would they have done the same for a right-wing website? Just as importantly, would HN be just as pro free speech if they had? Free speech as a value and ideal must be content-neutral.
- vmarsy 9y ago
  I think this is an important point. I found the Intercept's article[1] about the ACLU defending Charlottesville protesters' free speech right pretty interesting in that regard: Some people insult and blame the ACLU for defending free speech rights of even the most infamous people, but as the article points out, people fail to understand that if a precedent is set on them, it's diminishing everyone's rights. The ACLU understands this, which is why they defend such people. [1] https://theintercept.com/2017/08/13/the-misguided-attacks-on-aclu-for-defending-neo-nazis-free-speech-rights-in-charlottesville/ https://theintercept.com/2017/08/13/the-misguided-attacks-on...
- buttcake 9y ago
  Most likely no.
- walterstucco 9y ago
  Freedom comes at a cost: we value more the freedom to not be harmed than the freedom to harm. Those trying to harm other people _must_ be less free to do so. Freedom is not neutral
  - bkeroack 9y ago
    This is a false argument. Speech is not "harming someone". This is a tactic that seems to be more common recently: trying to equate expression of ideas with violence, and then claiming that violence is acceptable to suppress this supposed "speech violence".
    - glenndebacker 9y ago
      As somebody who has been battling a whole part of his life against PTSD I find it very troubling that people in 2017 still believe that bs that you can only harm people when you use fysical violence.
woofyman 9y ago
Scary and outrageous.
- scierama 9y ago
  No not really, this is about the DC riots on Inauguration Day which violated DC peace keeping laws, probably because it's the capitol of America, I'm thinking but read for yourself: https://beta.code.dccouncil.us/dc/council/code/sections/22-1322.html https://beta.code.dccouncil.us/dc/council/code/sections/22-1... The rioters broke DC law. Nothing scary, nothing shocking, it's a click bait title and nothing more.
  - eggpy 9y ago
    200 people were indicted on rioting charges. What use does the 1.3 million IP addresses have in those cases? How can the DoJ justify that disparity? So yes, it is a little scary.
wolfram74 9y ago
Especially in light of various american fascist groups interpreting the sitting president's half hearted comments regarding the Charlottesville murder as intentional endorsement of their philosophies.
- starik36 9y ago
  I think your dislike of the current president is clouding your ability to see facts for what they are. Since the incident he condemned the guilty on the TV, tweeted about it multiple times, his daughter spoke extensively on the subject, various people in the administration condemned it. Prime minister of Canada pretty much repeated Trump's condemnation verbatim and got praised for it. I am not sure what else you need at this point.
  - woofyman 9y ago
    It took him 2 days! He first raised a false equivalency between neo-nazis and the counter protestors. And he still hasn't labeled it domestic terorrism.
    - DamnYuppie 9y ago
      He also didn't label the liberal protester who attacked people with a bike lock as terrorists.
      - woofyman 9y ago
        Are you making a an equivalence between a bike lock and a 2 ton missile used by a neo-nazi. That's disgusting
        KekDemaga 9y ago
        I'm still waiting on Obama's similar statement regarding this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_shooting_of_Dallas_police_officers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_shooting_of_Dallas_poli... Perhaps Trump had issues "untangling motives" hence the delay: http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/9/obama-says-motives-dallas-cop-killer-micah-xavier-/ http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/9/obama-says-moti...
emerged 9y ago
It doesn't say which website exactly. If there's an FBI investigation (which seems possible, even likely, considering how extreme antifa and other "resistance" groups can be), it seems pretty par for the course to request information in order to help locate particular parties.
- eridius 9y ago
  It looks like the website is http://www.disruptj20.org/ http://www.disruptj20.org/ Source: https://www.dreamhost.com/blog/we-fight-for-the-users/ https://www.dreamhost.com/blog/we-fight-for-the-users/
  - guelo 9y ago
    Be careful clicking on a website who's IP address logs are being demanded by the FBI. Especially if you're on work network
    - woofyman 9y ago
      I think everyone who cares about freedom should click the link.
    - driverdan 9y ago
      Why would you have to be careful? Reading is not a crime.
      - guelo 9y ago
        You might end up in a database of suspicious anti Trump opponents.
      - boondaburrah 9y ago
        This is exactly why this warrant is unreasonable.
    - uuoc 9y ago
      > Be careful clicking on a website who's IP address logs are being demanded by the FBI. Especially if you're on work network Which is exactly a manifestation of the point about "chilling effects" on speech pointed out by many other comments in these threads. Your statement above expresses a fear to access the site (if even just to judge for yourself what the site contains) due to your IP address potentially being linked in some govt. database with agreeing with the site. This is exactly why the right to free speech is set forth in the first amendment to the US constitution. To prevent just this sort of govt. suppression in the first place.
clamprecht 9y ago
Upvote for the TRON reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kcgosLwPDE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kcgosLwPDE
zhuzhu 9y ago
you should delete 'for'
flashman 9y ago
It would be interesting to hear from Google whether the government has issued a search warrant for the Google Analytics data generated by the site's visitors, which would include IP address.
porkloin 9y ago
This seems like a convenient time to remind folks that it is incredibly important to stand up against this kind of government action not only when it is conducted against your political allies, but especially when it is conducted against your political enemies. Even if this were a pro-Trump website being subpoenaed, this should sicken you nonetheless. Short-sighted political gain might be had by allowing the government to stomp all over political dissidents you don't agree with, but in a few short years you might find yourself on the receiving end of the same treatment you endorsed. My hope is that those in the alt-right will realize that supporting this kind of action may hurt themselves just as much as it hurts the anti-Trump folks.
- buttcake 9y ago
  Maybe the government action is warranted here ? A few searches bring up nothing good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHZSfhd1X_8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHZSfhd1X_8 And by the looks of it alt-right sites soon will barely have domains, they don't need to worry about the state requesting something like this.
  - guelo 9y ago
    That's a strawman. The real issue is that Trump's DOJ is abusing its powers in this case to do a dragnet collection of 1.3 million of its most fervent political opponents.
    - buttcake 9y ago
      How is it a strawman exactly ? Is it ok to do anything you want just because you don't like trump ? It would be abuse if it was illegal surveilance, but this ? How exactly is this abuse ?
      - harry8 9y ago
        If you have probable cause getting a targeted warrant is not an issue. For or against Trump has exactly ZERO baring on that. If you want records for 1.3 million people you're in the realms of claiming there's a criminal conspiracy and a measurable fraction of adults in the USA are in on it. Or you're doing dragnet on your political enemies. It's wrong if someone working for Obama does it, it's wrong if Reagan does it, it's wrong if Hilary does it, it's wrong if _anyone_ does it. Including Trump. He's not special, he's the same whether you like him or not.
porkloin 9y ago
This seems like a convenient time to remind folks that it is incredibly important to stand up against this kind of government action not only when it is conducted against your political allies, but especially when it is conducted against your political enemies. Even if this were a pro-Trump website being subpoenaed, this should sicken you nonetheless. Short-sighted political gain might be had by allowing the government to stomp all over political dissidents you don't agree with, but in a few short years you might find yourself on the receiving end of the same treatment you endorsed. My hope is that those in the alt-right will realize that supporting this kind of action may hurt themselves just as much as it hurts the anti-Trump folks.
- Frondo 9y ago
  For my part, I value the right of black/gay/jewish/whoever people to exist and live their lives without threats of violence more than I value freedom of speech. Right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, in that order. Groups calling for their extermination, I'm not going to stand up for any of them, because they're actively working against the first of those three values. What good is freedom of speech or assembly when you're being run over by a white supremacist in a Charger? If that's a slippery slope--that ordering of values that prizes life over website hosting--then it's one I'm still content to stand on, because the alternative isn't taking us anywhere good right now.
  - nippples 9y ago
    Let me remind you that who brought up the concept of "acceptable punching targets" to modern politics was antifa, and that staging a counter-protest in the exact same venue and time as a rally / protest is OBVIOUSLY going to cause trouble. White supremacists are disgusting. Other race supremacists are disgusting. Anarchists are disgusting. Communists are disgusting. People calling for dead cops are disgusting. People looting and committing arson during protests are disgusting. There's a lot of disgusting people out there, and I'm beyond tired of people trying to escalate things even further. If all this political tension in the US escalates to full-blown civil war, it will be to no credit of a single group, but the many who keep getting excused by mainstream politicians, political commentators and journalists. The fun fact is that most of this could probably have been widely defused by allowing people to speak up in public, and then providing better counter-speech, but I guess that was hurting way too many feelings.
javajosh 9y ago
Just a reminder that a good system design doesn't store user data. If you don't have it it can't be used against your users.
- jlgaddis 9y ago
  Indeed. It will also save your company time and money (in more ways than one). I work for an ISP and I intentionally do not log user <-> IP address mappings. The time I've had to spend producing similar information in response to such requests is very minimal (basically, "sorry, we don't have that!").
ubernostrum 9y ago
I am sure that every single person who always stands on absolutist free-speech principles against the chilling effect of, say, calling for someone to be fired when it turns out they believe women are biologically inferior, will of course turn up to immediately oppose this on principle, and not adopt some sort of "let's wait and see, there may be nuances to this" approach.
driverdan 9y ago
It's great to see DreamHost stand up for their users in this instance but they're not always like that. I had a bogus DMCA takedown filed against a WP blog I have on a DH shared hosting account. DH went into my DB and took the post offline before they even notified me. Had they bothered to notify me first or spend 5 min reading the blog they would have found it to be clearly fair use.
TheDreamBotcher 9y ago
When you give up your rights to authorities, you are done. Nono this regime is better! They just want to keep us safe! Go read a book and preferably of history. If you consider total control keeping you safe, then go on and do it. People seem to forget the government is supposed to work for you in a democracy. Not the other way around
lucd 9y ago
Asking states voters data, and now that.. It could be more data collection for voter suppression..
matt_wulfeck 9y ago
The search warrant seems pretty broad, and includes "http and error logs". It looks like they're more interested in who set up and maintained the site rather than who visited it[0] Seems like dubious legal ground to demand to visitors to the site. I hope dreamhost resists that part of the warrant as unconstitutional. I would like to see the legal justification tested in court. 0. https://www.dreamhost.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/DH-Search-Warrant.pdf https://www.dreamhost.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/DH...
thrillgore 9y ago
I'm glad that Dreamhost is opposing the order. I'm glad to give them my business. To me, it would be no more different if it was an alt-right site.
badmadrad 9y ago
We already know about neo-nazi racists and gov already investigates them. However, Antifa and these Marxist Resistance groups are radicalized and dangerous groups that regularly entertain violence against Trump and his supporters. They deserve to be investigated as it effects the stability of our country.
- DanBC 9y ago
  You're operating under a pretty severe cognitive bias there. Anti-fa violence is investigated, but the levels of actual recorded violence, and threats of violence, from anti-fa groups is minuscule when compared to that from white supremacists. They're simply not comparable. White supremacists have already murdered people in the US, sometimes in mass killings.
  - e40 9y ago
    And is there an example of the government asking for information on right-wing website users? I don't remember one.
  - nostromo123 9y ago
    Just a reminder: antifa has devastated Hamburg during the G20 summit, for the simple reason that they were against it. I have yet to hear of any similar action perpetrated by another group.
t0mbstone 9y ago
Ummm... Organizing a legal protest is supposed to be actions that are protected by free speech. Requesting server logs and IP addresses is something that should require a warrant and proof of criminal action. How in the world does organizing a constitutionally protected protest qualify as a criminal action? This is some gestapo level shit, regardless of whether you agree with Trump or not.

290 points by mdesq 9y ago

Antifa and the nazis should all be thrown in prison. We dont need political violence and any more escalation. Dont believe me. How about the atlantic? https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/534192/ https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/534192/ How about cnn ? https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/08/14/us/what-is-antifa-trnd/index.html https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/08/14/us/what-is-antifa-trnd/in...

ebola1717 9y ago
Ah yes, nazis and the people fighting the nazis are the same. https://mobile.twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312?lang=en https://mobile.twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312?la...
pacaro 9y ago
I consider myself antifa in part because my great grandfather was murdered by the Nazis, and I consider it to be part of my social and civil responsibility to oppose fascism. Edit: ¡No pasaran!
- cyanexttuesday 9y ago
  Go for it but if you're burning down innocents in your mad dash to stop nazis. Don't expect sympathy.
  - pacaro 9y ago
    While many antifa are anarchists or anti-capitalists, the defining feature is opposing fascism. Don't succumb to a trivializing caricature of antifa as being primarily about wanton violence against property.
- driverdan 9y ago
  Antifa is not just anti-facism. If you go to any of their rallies or counter protests you'll find most are socio-anarchists or communists who don't see anything wrong with violence.
  - pacaro 9y ago
    Ask yourself who is defending the counter protestors when the police are defending the white supremacists, kkk, and other assorted fascists. Historically the police have a poor track record when it comes to choosing sides in the fight against fascism If you think antifa has too many anarchists and communists, maybe it's time to mask up and help
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

daturkel 9y ago

I've never (to my knowledge) had any issues re: legal requests about my site, but I can say that I've been a happy customer of Dreamhost for many years now. Support is quick, friendly, and knowledgeable, and the pricepoint for the product (shared server, web-hosting and domain renewal, unlimited bandwidth and storage) is a no-brainer for me. I'm not surprised to see that the host advocates for its users when it can.

arca_vorago 9y ago

Makes me happy to have been using Dreamhost for over 10 years now. I got in on the my domain crazy insane package, and have mostly gotten along with them. I am still super-angry they took away my squirellmail and forced the webmail into a non-FOSS webmail though.

nsx147 9y ago
Same here - same plan since feb 2007

Meekro 9y ago

Free speech is not just a constitutional amendment, it's a cultural value. It happens when DreamHost protects a website that is organizing legal protests, spending more per hour on legal fees than the website will pay over its lifetime. It happens when Cloudflare refuses to cancel service to some of the most disgusting sites on the internet, even though they're on the free plan and Cloudflare has no legal obligation to continue to host them. It happens when reddit fights tooth and nail, at great expense and with no reward forthcoming, to maintain some of the most toxic communities on the internet, only agreeing to close them when there is truly no other choice. It happens when computer scientists invent technologies like tor, freenet, and bitcoin, allowing unpopular groups to get their message out and collect donations, even if the majority would prefer that they be banished. And yes, it even happens when a small ISP steps up to host The Daily Stormer, secure in their knowledge that the best way to contend with such filth is to let the sunlight disinfect it, rather than trying to bottle it up and hoping that bottle never breaks. America is exceptional in its embrace of the cultural value of free speech. However bad we are about it sometimes, the rest of the world (including Western Europe) is much worse. This makes me proud to be an American citizen.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
pupppet 9y ago
Getting a little tired of these 'exposure will cure-all' type of comments. The only thing accomplished by not quashing sites like Daily Stormer is desensitizing us to them which only leads to legitimizing.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  Getting a little tired of "not all speech should be free" comments. You're trading one brand of facism for another. Don't try to wrap your brand in the appearance of progress. To discuss does not legitimize. If you are fearful of an idea being debated, that says more about you than the idea.
  - 9y ago

arkitaip 9y ago

Anyone care to compare Dreamhost to Webfaction?

thephyber 9y ago

TL;DR: DreamHost was issued a warrant to produce any and all content+logs+metadata about a customer-hosted website that presumably may have been related to violent protests/riots in Washington DC circa Jan 20th (Trump inauguration day). They pushed back on the overly broad nature of the warrant, the DOJ pushed the courts to then "compel" DH to comply.

bkeroack 9y ago

Would they have done the same for a right-wing website? Just as importantly, would HN be just as pro free speech if they had? Free speech as a value and ideal must be content-neutral.

vmarsy 9y ago
I think this is an important point. I found the Intercept's article[1] about the ACLU defending Charlottesville protesters' free speech right pretty interesting in that regard: Some people insult and blame the ACLU for defending free speech rights of even the most infamous people, but as the article points out, people fail to understand that if a precedent is set on them, it's diminishing everyone's rights. The ACLU understands this, which is why they defend such people. [1] https://theintercept.com/2017/08/13/the-misguided-attacks-on-aclu-for-defending-neo-nazis-free-speech-rights-in-charlottesville/ https://theintercept.com/2017/08/13/the-misguided-attacks-on...
buttcake 9y ago
Most likely no.
walterstucco 9y ago
Freedom comes at a cost: we value more the freedom to not be harmed than the freedom to harm. Those trying to harm other people _must_ be less free to do so. Freedom is not neutral
- bkeroack 9y ago
  This is a false argument. Speech is not "harming someone". This is a tactic that seems to be more common recently: trying to equate expression of ideas with violence, and then claiming that violence is acceptable to suppress this supposed "speech violence".
  - glenndebacker 9y ago
    As somebody who has been battling a whole part of his life against PTSD I find it very troubling that people in 2017 still believe that bs that you can only harm people when you use fysical violence.

woofyman 9y ago

Scary and outrageous.

scierama 9y ago
No not really, this is about the DC riots on Inauguration Day which violated DC peace keeping laws, probably because it's the capitol of America, I'm thinking but read for yourself: https://beta.code.dccouncil.us/dc/council/code/sections/22-1322.html https://beta.code.dccouncil.us/dc/council/code/sections/22-1... The rioters broke DC law. Nothing scary, nothing shocking, it's a click bait title and nothing more.
- eggpy 9y ago
  200 people were indicted on rioting charges. What use does the 1.3 million IP addresses have in those cases? How can the DoJ justify that disparity? So yes, it is a little scary.

wolfram74 9y ago

Especially in light of various american fascist groups interpreting the sitting president's half hearted comments regarding the Charlottesville murder as intentional endorsement of their philosophies.

starik36 9y ago
I think your dislike of the current president is clouding your ability to see facts for what they are. Since the incident he condemned the guilty on the TV, tweeted about it multiple times, his daughter spoke extensively on the subject, various people in the administration condemned it. Prime minister of Canada pretty much repeated Trump's condemnation verbatim and got praised for it. I am not sure what else you need at this point.
- woofyman 9y ago
  It took him 2 days! He first raised a false equivalency between neo-nazis and the counter protestors. And he still hasn't labeled it domestic terorrism.
  - DamnYuppie 9y ago
    He also didn't label the liberal protester who attacked people with a bike lock as terrorists.
    - woofyman 9y ago
      Are you making a an equivalence between a bike lock and a 2 ton missile used by a neo-nazi. That's disgusting
      - KekDemaga 9y ago
        I'm still waiting on Obama's similar statement regarding this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_shooting_of_Dallas_police_officers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_shooting_of_Dallas_poli... Perhaps Trump had issues "untangling motives" hence the delay: http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/9/obama-says-motives-dallas-cop-killer-micah-xavier-/ http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/9/obama-says-moti...

emerged 9y ago

It doesn't say which website exactly. If there's an FBI investigation (which seems possible, even likely, considering how extreme antifa and other "resistance" groups can be), it seems pretty par for the course to request information in order to help locate particular parties.

eridius 9y ago
It looks like the website is http://www.disruptj20.org/ http://www.disruptj20.org/ Source: https://www.dreamhost.com/blog/we-fight-for-the-users/ https://www.dreamhost.com/blog/we-fight-for-the-users/
- guelo 9y ago
  Be careful clicking on a website who's IP address logs are being demanded by the FBI. Especially if you're on work network
  - woofyman 9y ago
    I think everyone who cares about freedom should click the link.
  - driverdan 9y ago
    Why would you have to be careful? Reading is not a crime.
    - guelo 9y ago
      You might end up in a database of suspicious anti Trump opponents.
    - boondaburrah 9y ago
      This is exactly why this warrant is unreasonable.
  - uuoc 9y ago
    > Be careful clicking on a website who's IP address logs are being demanded by the FBI. Especially if you're on work network Which is exactly a manifestation of the point about "chilling effects" on speech pointed out by many other comments in these threads. Your statement above expresses a fear to access the site (if even just to judge for yourself what the site contains) due to your IP address potentially being linked in some govt. database with agreeing with the site. This is exactly why the right to free speech is set forth in the first amendment to the US constitution. To prevent just this sort of govt. suppression in the first place.

clamprecht 9y ago

Upvote for the TRON reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kcgosLwPDE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kcgosLwPDE

zhuzhu 9y ago

you should delete 'for'

flashman 9y ago

It would be interesting to hear from Google whether the government has issued a search warrant for the Google Analytics data generated by the site's visitors, which would include IP address.

porkloin 9y ago

This seems like a convenient time to remind folks that it is incredibly important to stand up against this kind of government action not only when it is conducted against your political allies, but especially when it is conducted against your political enemies. Even if this were a pro-Trump website being subpoenaed, this should sicken you nonetheless. Short-sighted political gain might be had by allowing the government to stomp all over political dissidents you don't agree with, but in a few short years you might find yourself on the receiving end of the same treatment you endorsed. My hope is that those in the alt-right will realize that supporting this kind of action may hurt themselves just as much as it hurts the anti-Trump folks.

buttcake 9y ago
Maybe the government action is warranted here ? A few searches bring up nothing good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHZSfhd1X_8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHZSfhd1X_8 And by the looks of it alt-right sites soon will barely have domains, they don't need to worry about the state requesting something like this.
- guelo 9y ago
  That's a strawman. The real issue is that Trump's DOJ is abusing its powers in this case to do a dragnet collection of 1.3 million of its most fervent political opponents.
  - buttcake 9y ago
    How is it a strawman exactly ? Is it ok to do anything you want just because you don't like trump ? It would be abuse if it was illegal surveilance, but this ? How exactly is this abuse ?
    - harry8 9y ago
      If you have probable cause getting a targeted warrant is not an issue. For or against Trump has exactly ZERO baring on that. If you want records for 1.3 million people you're in the realms of claiming there's a criminal conspiracy and a measurable fraction of adults in the USA are in on it. Or you're doing dragnet on your political enemies. It's wrong if someone working for Obama does it, it's wrong if Reagan does it, it's wrong if Hilary does it, it's wrong if _anyone_ does it. Including Trump. He's not special, he's the same whether you like him or not.

porkloin 9y ago

Frondo 9y ago
For my part, I value the right of black/gay/jewish/whoever people to exist and live their lives without threats of violence more than I value freedom of speech. Right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, in that order. Groups calling for their extermination, I'm not going to stand up for any of them, because they're actively working against the first of those three values. What good is freedom of speech or assembly when you're being run over by a white supremacist in a Charger? If that's a slippery slope--that ordering of values that prizes life over website hosting--then it's one I'm still content to stand on, because the alternative isn't taking us anywhere good right now.
- nippples 9y ago
  Let me remind you that who brought up the concept of "acceptable punching targets" to modern politics was antifa, and that staging a counter-protest in the exact same venue and time as a rally / protest is OBVIOUSLY going to cause trouble. White supremacists are disgusting. Other race supremacists are disgusting. Anarchists are disgusting. Communists are disgusting. People calling for dead cops are disgusting. People looting and committing arson during protests are disgusting. There's a lot of disgusting people out there, and I'm beyond tired of people trying to escalate things even further. If all this political tension in the US escalates to full-blown civil war, it will be to no credit of a single group, but the many who keep getting excused by mainstream politicians, political commentators and journalists. The fun fact is that most of this could probably have been widely defused by allowing people to speak up in public, and then providing better counter-speech, but I guess that was hurting way too many feelings.

javajosh 9y ago

Just a reminder that a good system design doesn't store user data. If you don't have it it can't be used against your users.

jlgaddis 9y ago
Indeed. It will also save your company time and money (in more ways than one). I work for an ISP and I intentionally do not log user <-> IP address mappings. The time I've had to spend producing similar information in response to such requests is very minimal (basically, "sorry, we don't have that!").

ubernostrum 9y ago

I am sure that every single person who always stands on absolutist free-speech principles against the chilling effect of, say, calling for someone to be fired when it turns out they believe women are biologically inferior, will of course turn up to immediately oppose this on principle, and not adopt some sort of "let's wait and see, there may be nuances to this" approach.

driverdan 9y ago

It's great to see DreamHost stand up for their users in this instance but they're not always like that. I had a bogus DMCA takedown filed against a WP blog I have on a DH shared hosting account. DH went into my DB and took the post offline before they even notified me. Had they bothered to notify me first or spend 5 min reading the blog they would have found it to be clearly fair use.

TheDreamBotcher 9y ago

When you give up your rights to authorities, you are done. Nono this regime is better! They just want to keep us safe! Go read a book and preferably of history. If you consider total control keeping you safe, then go on and do it. People seem to forget the government is supposed to work for you in a democracy. Not the other way around

lucd 9y ago

Asking states voters data, and now that.. It could be more data collection for voter suppression..

matt_wulfeck 9y ago

The search warrant seems pretty broad, and includes "http and error logs". It looks like they're more interested in who set up and maintained the site rather than who visited it[0] Seems like dubious legal ground to demand to visitors to the site. I hope dreamhost resists that part of the warrant as unconstitutional. I would like to see the legal justification tested in court. 0. https://www.dreamhost.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/DH-Search-Warrant.pdf https://www.dreamhost.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/DH...

thrillgore 9y ago

I'm glad that Dreamhost is opposing the order. I'm glad to give them my business. To me, it would be no more different if it was an alt-right site.

badmadrad 9y ago

We already know about neo-nazi racists and gov already investigates them. However, Antifa and these Marxist Resistance groups are radicalized and dangerous groups that regularly entertain violence against Trump and his supporters. They deserve to be investigated as it effects the stability of our country.

DanBC 9y ago
You're operating under a pretty severe cognitive bias there. Anti-fa violence is investigated, but the levels of actual recorded violence, and threats of violence, from anti-fa groups is minuscule when compared to that from white supremacists. They're simply not comparable. White supremacists have already murdered people in the US, sometimes in mass killings.
- e40 9y ago
  And is there an example of the government asking for information on right-wing website users? I don't remember one.
- nostromo123 9y ago
  Just a reminder: antifa has devastated Hamburg during the G20 summit, for the simple reason that they were against it. I have yet to hear of any similar action perpetrated by another group.

t0mbstone 9y ago

Ummm... Organizing a legal protest is supposed to be actions that are protected by free speech. Requesting server logs and IP addresses is something that should require a warrant and proof of criminal action. How in the world does organizing a constitutionally protected protest qualify as a criminal action? This is some gestapo level shit, regardless of whether you agree with Trump or not.