7 ms·

I find it strange that probably the most successful and influential compiler and PL developer in a generation doesn't seem to be interested in compilers or PL a

by guelo 9y ago

I find it strange that probably the most successful and influential compiler and PL developer in a generation doesn't seem to be interested in compilers or PL anymore.

the_duke 9y ago
Don't you get bored doing the same thing for more than a decade?
geodel 9y ago
He is still on Swift core team so why you think is he is not interested in Compilers/PL? A person of his/her caliber should be able to work on multiple things with very high level of performance.
jorgemf 9y ago
As a machine learning researcher I have to say that you should join us too! AI is the future! PL is an area with big challenges, but AI has even bigger challenges and the impact in the society is bigger, much bigger, too. I would change the question and ask why anyone shouldn't be interested in AI?
- Jtsummers 9y ago
  Because not every problem can be solved by AI.
  - jorgemf 9y ago
    Not now, but if you can really create AI, it shouldn't be indistinguishable of human Intelligence. My point is that it is unlikely to make big steps now to advance in PL, but it is very likely you can do it in AI. The last 5 years have been crazy and the people working on it now is much more than few years ago. Note: most probably you wont be getting human-like AI anytime soon
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - dunpeal 9y ago
      > Not now, but if you can really create AI, it shouldn't be indistinguishable of human Intelligence. If we really create AI that is "indistinguishable of human Intelligence", then all questions about human jobs or research become moot, no? If someone was to create AI that is human-equivalent (aka strong AI) then that would be their final project as a human being. There would be no need for human professional or academic effort after that point.
      - Cozumel 9y ago
        >'If someone was to create AI that is human-equivalent (aka strong AI)' Creating AI with human level intelligence isn't going to be so great, most people are complete idiots. Creating AI with above human intelligence is a different story.
        dunkelheit 9y ago
        A well-known "paradox" states that tasks that require savant-level intelligence from humans (like playing chess) are actually doable with computers, but tasks that any idiot can do (say, pouring yourself a cup of tea) are crazy hard.
      - jorgemf 9y ago
        Well... They said the same in the industrial era. There are a lot of things to consider, for example: - AI might not like to work, as we don't like to work - You suppose that if you create AI then the AI can create a more intelligence AI and this to the infinity. We don't know if the intelligence is unlimited or limited. We might have reach the top intelligence. (note: the more intelligent the brain the slower it is, and a bigger brain does not relate to intelligence)
    - mikeash 9y ago
      Sounds a lot like saying people should get into management so that they can get other people to do stuff for them. People can do anything people can do, so you should get into people. And it's totally true! A good manager can make anything happen that their team can accomplish, and their impact can be huge. But some people want to actually work on the stuff, not work on the stuff that works on the stuff.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    I'm more interested in IA (intelligence augmentation) actually, which seems to overlap with PL nicely.
- mahyarm 9y ago
  PL seems easier to get into and make useful things with, like a static analyzer that enforces some rule at a big co. From my perspective it seems like your need something PhD level to do useful things with it and get paid better than a standard FANG software engineer. I'm probably wrong although, it's probably an exposure thing.
- cf 9y ago
  Well as another machine learning researcher, I think you can make a major impact working on problems that aren't in AI. Now if you are a PL person interested in AI we would love to have you and your expertise! Oh and if you want to use AI to solve PL problems like program synthesis and program completion, that's cool too.
  - lmeyerov 9y ago
    Haha I was going to say, solving synthesis via PL+AI is way more exciting than either technique alone. -- A former PL researcher making AI way more useful via vanilla PL techniques
    - cf 9y ago
      Welcome to the party!
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
pjmlp 9y ago
Well he already said in a couple of interviews something like "I write C++ so that you don't have to". Also a few other Swift team members used to be part of ANSI C++ comitee.
UperSpaceGuru 9y ago
It may have to do with the fact that he just wanted some new challenges to sink his teeth into. As an old school hacker myself, I can relate. Even really cool technologies start to feel mundane and tedious after you've done them for long enough. The real challenge with senior positions is adjusting to new environment/dynamics, not to mention the expectations that come from "legend" status. I'm not a legend, but I certainly had a much easier time in the earlier stages in career just focusing on the tech direct. When you're the hot new hire, a certain group at the new company expects a lot form you, while others who have been there longer think it's just hype. (I'm assuming something similar happened at Tesla). Wish him all the luck on the new adventure! And being an AI geek myself: NO AI cannot solve everything. Not even close. (at least for now) Sentient machine conversations are straight up funny to me. Still, I can't help get over the cool/geek factor of working on Machine Learning/Deep learning or exploring new algorithms that could significantly improve the field.
chubot 9y ago
There is an obvious overlap between programming languages and machine learning at Google: TensorFlow. For example, see "A Computational Model for TensorFlow" https://research.google.com/pubs/pub46196.html https://research.google.com/pubs/pub46196.html There are tons of interesting things going on in TensorFlow from a programming language perspective. It has optimization at the low level, like CUDA and SIMD back ends via the Eigen library [1] (which is pretty crazy C++ metaprogramming in its own right). But it also has optimization at the high level / cluster level, e.g. deciding which nodes to put computations on, to minimize data movement across various networks, etc. It also has multiple front ends. Python is the main one, but IIRC people were developing others (maybe not at Google). I worked adjacent to the TensorFlow team, and A LOT of people had BOTH ML and PL skills [2]. It's not an either-or thing. It's best when you have the same person with both sets of expertise. I think a big problem with large parts of the academic PL community is they're not exposed enough to real applications. Difficulty isn't proportional to real-world benefit. It's certainly difficult to invent type systems to statically detect minor problems, but that doesn't mean it's important for creating and maintaining software. (Sorry, had to rant about that.) Machine learning is a domain rife with programming language problems, but of course it takes a long time to develop that expertise. I'm sure Lattner would be a good person to synthesize knowledge in the different domains. [1] http://eigen.tuxfamily.org/index.php?title=Main_Page http://eigen.tuxfamily.org/index.php?title=Main_Page [2] edit: I should really say ML and distributed computing skills. But most people with distributed computing skills know a decent amount about programming languages; they overlap in MapReduce-type big data frameworks too.
- leereeves 9y ago
  Makes me wonder if Google is working on a programming language for machine learning...
  - corporateslave3 9y ago
    This actually blows my mind. I know that probabilistic languages exist, but something very interesting could be done here.
  - 9y ago
justonepost 9y ago
Maybe he'll create a higher AI language for TF. That'd be really really cool.
puzzle 9y ago
Google has its own GPGPU compiler: https://research.google.com/pubs/pub45226.html https://research.google.com/pubs/pub45226.html
- jlebar 9y ago
  It's actually all open-source in clang: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHa-OSrZPGo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHa-OSrZPGo. Try it out!
  - puzzle 9y ago
    That's a great talk. Thanks a lot!
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
giobox 9y ago
If you want to understand his motivations, he gave a wide ranging interview to the ATP (Accidental Tech Podcast) guys at the time he jumped ship to Tesla. Basically it seemed to boil down to him now being a people manager as much as he is an engineer - he really enjoys helping teams of people succeed at complex technical problems. This doesn't surprise me at all, given how the nature of work often changes as one climbs an org tree. http://atp.fm/205-chris-lattner-interview-transcript/ http://atp.fm/205-chris-lattner-interview-transcript/
tnecniv 9y ago
PL / compilers has a lot to do with logic and formal reasoning, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's interested in applying that to other domains. Merging DL with more traditional reasoning frameworks is an interesting question I know a few people have tried attacking. Of course, that's just speculation.
nl 9y ago
I'd expect Google is looking to extend XLA: https://www.tensorflow.org/performance/xla/ https://www.tensorflow.org/performance/xla/
nullnilvoid 9y ago
After having been working on compiler and PLs for more than a decade, you would feel bored and want new challenges. Besides, Chris did not leave PL, he is still involved in Swift, LLVM etc.
yawaramin 9y ago
I'm finding that some traditional developers nowadays are more and more interested in AI/ML, rather than just plain coding. Maybe they're able to tell which way the wind is blowing a little better than most of us? After all, one of the applications of ML will be to learn how to write software. It could very well put traditional developers out of a job.
tanilama 9y ago
AI/ML is the most exciting fields in CS now. It brings challenges on so many levels: algorithms/software implementation/hardware(client/server/network communication)/resource placement(heterogeneous computation ), and the list goes on. I would go as far as to say it has the potential to ascend as the new purpose of computation itself. Hardly blame someone jumps the ship to goldmine this new wild west, however established that person in his own field may have become.
anarazel 9y ago
Quite possible that his last contract's non-compete still makes that hard...
apple4ever 9y ago
Well maybe he realized Swift is a terrible programming language he should do something else. (Yes I know, he's still involved in Swift. Its a joke. Though Swift really is a terrible programming language).

by guelo 9y ago

I find it strange that probably the most successful and influential compiler and PL developer in a generation doesn't seem to be interested in compilers or PL anymore.

the_duke 9y ago

Don't you get bored doing the same thing for more than a decade?

geodel 9y ago

He is still on Swift core team so why you think is he is not interested in Compilers/PL? A person of his/her caliber should be able to work on multiple things with very high level of performance.

jorgemf 9y ago

As a machine learning researcher I have to say that you should join us too! AI is the future! PL is an area with big challenges, but AI has even bigger challenges and the impact in the society is bigger, much bigger, too. I would change the question and ask why anyone shouldn't be interested in AI?

Jtsummers 9y ago
Because not every problem can be solved by AI.
- jorgemf 9y ago
  Not now, but if you can really create AI, it shouldn't be indistinguishable of human Intelligence. My point is that it is unlikely to make big steps now to advance in PL, but it is very likely you can do it in AI. The last 5 years have been crazy and the people working on it now is much more than few years ago. Note: most probably you wont be getting human-like AI anytime soon
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - dunpeal 9y ago
    > Not now, but if you can really create AI, it shouldn't be indistinguishable of human Intelligence. If we really create AI that is "indistinguishable of human Intelligence", then all questions about human jobs or research become moot, no? If someone was to create AI that is human-equivalent (aka strong AI) then that would be their final project as a human being. There would be no need for human professional or academic effort after that point.
    - Cozumel 9y ago
      >'If someone was to create AI that is human-equivalent (aka strong AI)' Creating AI with human level intelligence isn't going to be so great, most people are complete idiots. Creating AI with above human intelligence is a different story.
      - dunkelheit 9y ago
        A well-known "paradox" states that tasks that require savant-level intelligence from humans (like playing chess) are actually doable with computers, but tasks that any idiot can do (say, pouring yourself a cup of tea) are crazy hard.
    - jorgemf 9y ago
      Well... They said the same in the industrial era. There are a lot of things to consider, for example: - AI might not like to work, as we don't like to work - You suppose that if you create AI then the AI can create a more intelligence AI and this to the infinity. We don't know if the intelligence is unlimited or limited. We might have reach the top intelligence. (note: the more intelligent the brain the slower it is, and a bigger brain does not relate to intelligence)
  - mikeash 9y ago
    Sounds a lot like saying people should get into management so that they can get other people to do stuff for them. People can do anything people can do, so you should get into people. And it's totally true! A good manager can make anything happen that their team can accomplish, and their impact can be huge. But some people want to actually work on the stuff, not work on the stuff that works on the stuff.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  I'm more interested in IA (intelligence augmentation) actually, which seems to overlap with PL nicely.
mahyarm 9y ago
PL seems easier to get into and make useful things with, like a static analyzer that enforces some rule at a big co. From my perspective it seems like your need something PhD level to do useful things with it and get paid better than a standard FANG software engineer. I'm probably wrong although, it's probably an exposure thing.
cf 9y ago
Well as another machine learning researcher, I think you can make a major impact working on problems that aren't in AI. Now if you are a PL person interested in AI we would love to have you and your expertise! Oh and if you want to use AI to solve PL problems like program synthesis and program completion, that's cool too.
- lmeyerov 9y ago
  Haha I was going to say, solving synthesis via PL+AI is way more exciting than either technique alone. -- A former PL researcher making AI way more useful via vanilla PL techniques
  - cf 9y ago
    Welcome to the party!
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]

pjmlp 9y ago

Well he already said in a couple of interviews something like "I write C++ so that you don't have to". Also a few other Swift team members used to be part of ANSI C++ comitee.

UperSpaceGuru 9y ago

It may have to do with the fact that he just wanted some new challenges to sink his teeth into. As an old school hacker myself, I can relate. Even really cool technologies start to feel mundane and tedious after you've done them for long enough. The real challenge with senior positions is adjusting to new environment/dynamics, not to mention the expectations that come from "legend" status. I'm not a legend, but I certainly had a much easier time in the earlier stages in career just focusing on the tech direct. When you're the hot new hire, a certain group at the new company expects a lot form you, while others who have been there longer think it's just hype. (I'm assuming something similar happened at Tesla). Wish him all the luck on the new adventure! And being an AI geek myself: NO AI cannot solve everything. Not even close. (at least for now) Sentient machine conversations are straight up funny to me. Still, I can't help get over the cool/geek factor of working on Machine Learning/Deep learning or exploring new algorithms that could significantly improve the field.

chubot 9y ago

There is an obvious overlap between programming languages and machine learning at Google: TensorFlow. For example, see "A Computational Model for TensorFlow" https://research.google.com/pubs/pub46196.html https://research.google.com/pubs/pub46196.html There are tons of interesting things going on in TensorFlow from a programming language perspective. It has optimization at the low level, like CUDA and SIMD back ends via the Eigen library [1] (which is pretty crazy C++ metaprogramming in its own right). But it also has optimization at the high level / cluster level, e.g. deciding which nodes to put computations on, to minimize data movement across various networks, etc. It also has multiple front ends. Python is the main one, but IIRC people were developing others (maybe not at Google). I worked adjacent to the TensorFlow team, and A LOT of people had BOTH ML and PL skills [2]. It's not an either-or thing. It's best when you have the same person with both sets of expertise. I think a big problem with large parts of the academic PL community is they're not exposed enough to real applications. Difficulty isn't proportional to real-world benefit. It's certainly difficult to invent type systems to statically detect minor problems, but that doesn't mean it's important for creating and maintaining software. (Sorry, had to rant about that.) Machine learning is a domain rife with programming language problems, but of course it takes a long time to develop that expertise. I'm sure Lattner would be a good person to synthesize knowledge in the different domains. [1] http://eigen.tuxfamily.org/index.php?title=Main_Page http://eigen.tuxfamily.org/index.php?title=Main_Page [2] edit: I should really say ML and distributed computing skills. But most people with distributed computing skills know a decent amount about programming languages; they overlap in MapReduce-type big data frameworks too.

leereeves 9y ago
Makes me wonder if Google is working on a programming language for machine learning...
- corporateslave3 9y ago
  This actually blows my mind. I know that probabilistic languages exist, but something very interesting could be done here.
- 9y ago

justonepost 9y ago

Maybe he'll create a higher AI language for TF. That'd be really really cool.

puzzle 9y ago

Google has its own GPGPU compiler: https://research.google.com/pubs/pub45226.html https://research.google.com/pubs/pub45226.html

jlebar 9y ago
It's actually all open-source in clang: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHa-OSrZPGo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHa-OSrZPGo. Try it out!
- puzzle 9y ago
  That's a great talk. Thanks a lot!

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

giobox 9y ago

If you want to understand his motivations, he gave a wide ranging interview to the ATP (Accidental Tech Podcast) guys at the time he jumped ship to Tesla. Basically it seemed to boil down to him now being a people manager as much as he is an engineer - he really enjoys helping teams of people succeed at complex technical problems. This doesn't surprise me at all, given how the nature of work often changes as one climbs an org tree. http://atp.fm/205-chris-lattner-interview-transcript/ http://atp.fm/205-chris-lattner-interview-transcript/

tnecniv 9y ago

PL / compilers has a lot to do with logic and formal reasoning, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's interested in applying that to other domains. Merging DL with more traditional reasoning frameworks is an interesting question I know a few people have tried attacking. Of course, that's just speculation.

nl 9y ago

I'd expect Google is looking to extend XLA: https://www.tensorflow.org/performance/xla/ https://www.tensorflow.org/performance/xla/

nullnilvoid 9y ago

After having been working on compiler and PLs for more than a decade, you would feel bored and want new challenges. Besides, Chris did not leave PL, he is still involved in Swift, LLVM etc.

yawaramin 9y ago

I'm finding that some traditional developers nowadays are more and more interested in AI/ML, rather than just plain coding. Maybe they're able to tell which way the wind is blowing a little better than most of us? After all, one of the applications of ML will be to learn how to write software. It could very well put traditional developers out of a job.

tanilama 9y ago

AI/ML is the most exciting fields in CS now. It brings challenges on so many levels: algorithms/software implementation/hardware(client/server/network communication)/resource placement(heterogeneous computation ), and the list goes on. I would go as far as to say it has the potential to ascend as the new purpose of computation itself. Hardly blame someone jumps the ship to goldmine this new wild west, however established that person in his own field may have become.

anarazel 9y ago

Quite possible that his last contract's non-compete still makes that hard...

apple4ever 9y ago

Well maybe he realized Swift is a terrible programming language he should do something else. (Yes I know, he's still involved in Swift. Its a joke. Though Swift really is a terrible programming language).