4 ms·

The human cost of the pressures of postdoctoral research

40 points by denzil_correa 9y ago

gobugat 9y ago
And when finally you get out of your precarious post-doctoral status, entering your first permanent academic position... well, let's say it's not worse, but it's not necessarily better. Academia (my case: computer science in the UK) is a meat grinder.
hprotagonist 9y ago
There are reasons I am 1000% not interested in doing any postdocs. I've seen way too many good people flame out, and the chances of landing a good faculty job at 35 years old in my field, unless you are already a superstar by the time you're 25, are basically nil right now. Not worth it.
WkndTriathlete 9y ago
This comment from the journal editor is particularly telling: "Certainly people, say in businness [sic], behave more brutally than in academia." I don't know what businesses and academics the editor knows, but my observations across business and academics have repeatedly been than professors behave far more brutally than businesspeople do.
- tome 9y ago
  Because the stakes are so low.
- leemailll 9y ago
  It isn't in academia one usually has a year to land another job after been told fired?
  - arethuza 9y ago
    Never heard of that one in the UK - even heard of people who weren't even told they were fired, they just didn't get paid and were expected to take the hint. Imagine my horror one month when the university I worked for "forgot" to pay me one month - due to an administrative error apparently....
  - chriskanan 9y ago
    This is true if you are in a tenure track job, and denied tenure. That's not true for postdocs, in general. If the sponsor pulled funding from the project that funded my postdoc, it would be challenging to keep him.
- hprotagonist 9y ago
  Sayre's Law: "academic politics are so vicious because the stakes are so small."
- blablabla123 9y ago
  In business, no matter how ruthless or cold the people are, you can complain or even yell at the people - been there. I guess this is not an option in academics. Fwiw my mother died during my thesis. I didn't get a 6 week extension period - my professor said that's probably not gonna work.
leemailll 9y ago
Entering postdoctoral for many fields basically means one is in a pre-run for a faculty job trying to be tenured, plus post docs need to do the real work rather than assign them to others. Unfortunately for many that is also the time a family or children begin to occupy private life, which provide extra stress and squeeze precious time. It is a highly stressed position, but not unique. If one wants to stay in academia the stress always accompany the entire career. I saw post doc sent baby to daycare at 6 weeks old, I heard post doc's promising job interview ruined by supervisor's letter. But they all survived and enjoy their research. I feel the freedom and joy of doing the thing interests you are also priceless and it is a rewarding experience even one is suffering. It is highly stressed life, however, one can make it his own better. Keep positive, keep smiling.
metaphorm 9y ago
I'm so so so so so so glad I left academia before getting to this point. Every single person I met in a doctoral program was as unhappy as I've ever seen any person who is not otherwise dealing with some serious shit (deaths in the family, chronic disease, addiction, etc.).
skosuri 9y ago
I loved my time as a postdoc. It was a time to be surrounded by awesome people, many of whom are still my close friends. I spent most of my time mostly thinking about my science and what I wanted to do with it. Finally, there were very few distractions administratively or otherwise. I miss it quite a bit. Of course there are pressures, but my stint before my postdoc was being fired from an early-stage startup (I was first employee). The last six months was the most pressure-filled experience I had experienced to this day. I found the postdoc-world was much more supportive an experience. Obviously YMMV, and different labs and startups have very different cultures.
searine 9y ago
My experience : Intellectually my post-doc was amazing because I finally felt I was a world-leader in my field. I was attending the right conferences, mentored by the right people, and showing that I could hold my own with heavy weights. Psychologically it was taxing. I was very strict about keeping work/life separate which was good. However, my research itself was very isolating and I found my self drinking far more than I should to cope with the scientific and economic stress of the job. Health-wise it was challenging. Drinking problem aside, my hair went grey, my hypertension spiked, and I gained 50 pounds. The work schedule and accommodations of the university made exercising just too hard to fit into a normal schedule. During grad school I worked out 3-6 times per week, during my post-doc I could barely fit in once per week. Economically it was near disastrous. Quite frankly, if I didn't have outside support I wouldn't have been able to make rent. Even with that, I ran up about 10K in credit card debt and was forced to each rice/beans, and dollar menu lunches just to keep my head above water. I was the highest paid post-doc in the building and I was one mishap away from bankruptcy. In the end, I jumped ship. I had a very good shot a landing a faculty position (multiple top tier first author papers), but it just wasn't worth it. The stress, moving, and lost income was just too much of a burden. So instead I took a job at a quasi-academic institute and tripled my income. I regret nothing.
- heinrichf 9y ago
  Would you agree to share your research area ?
  - searine 9y ago
    Genomics / Bioinformatics. I was very lucky. Because of my field I got a premium post-doc position and salary and I easily transitioned to a non-academic position due to my comp sci background. Many biologists aren't so lucky...

40 points by denzil_correa 9y ago

And when finally you get out of your precarious post-doctoral status, entering your first permanent academic position... well, let's say it's not worse, but it's not necessarily better. Academia (my case: computer science in the UK) is a meat grinder.

hprotagonist 9y ago

There are reasons I am 1000% not interested in doing any postdocs. I've seen way too many good people flame out, and the chances of landing a good faculty job at 35 years old in my field, unless you are already a superstar by the time you're 25, are basically nil right now. Not worth it.

WkndTriathlete 9y ago

This comment from the journal editor is particularly telling: "Certainly people, say in businness [sic], behave more brutally than in academia." I don't know what businesses and academics the editor knows, but my observations across business and academics have repeatedly been than professors behave far more brutally than businesspeople do.

tome 9y ago
Because the stakes are so low.
leemailll 9y ago
It isn't in academia one usually has a year to land another job after been told fired?
- arethuza 9y ago
  Never heard of that one in the UK - even heard of people who weren't even told they were fired, they just didn't get paid and were expected to take the hint. Imagine my horror one month when the university I worked for "forgot" to pay me one month - due to an administrative error apparently....
- chriskanan 9y ago
  This is true if you are in a tenure track job, and denied tenure. That's not true for postdocs, in general. If the sponsor pulled funding from the project that funded my postdoc, it would be challenging to keep him.
hprotagonist 9y ago
Sayre's Law: "academic politics are so vicious because the stakes are so small."
blablabla123 9y ago
In business, no matter how ruthless or cold the people are, you can complain or even yell at the people - been there. I guess this is not an option in academics. Fwiw my mother died during my thesis. I didn't get a 6 week extension period - my professor said that's probably not gonna work.

leemailll 9y ago

Entering postdoctoral for many fields basically means one is in a pre-run for a faculty job trying to be tenured, plus post docs need to do the real work rather than assign them to others. Unfortunately for many that is also the time a family or children begin to occupy private life, which provide extra stress and squeeze precious time. It is a highly stressed position, but not unique. If one wants to stay in academia the stress always accompany the entire career. I saw post doc sent baby to daycare at 6 weeks old, I heard post doc's promising job interview ruined by supervisor's letter. But they all survived and enjoy their research. I feel the freedom and joy of doing the thing interests you are also priceless and it is a rewarding experience even one is suffering. It is highly stressed life, however, one can make it his own better. Keep positive, keep smiling.

metaphorm 9y ago

I'm so so so so so so glad I left academia before getting to this point. Every single person I met in a doctoral program was as unhappy as I've ever seen any person who is not otherwise dealing with some serious shit (deaths in the family, chronic disease, addiction, etc.).

skosuri 9y ago

I loved my time as a postdoc. It was a time to be surrounded by awesome people, many of whom are still my close friends. I spent most of my time mostly thinking about my science and what I wanted to do with it. Finally, there were very few distractions administratively or otherwise. I miss it quite a bit. Of course there are pressures, but my stint before my postdoc was being fired from an early-stage startup (I was first employee). The last six months was the most pressure-filled experience I had experienced to this day. I found the postdoc-world was much more supportive an experience. Obviously YMMV, and different labs and startups have very different cultures.

searine 9y ago

My experience : Intellectually my post-doc was amazing because I finally felt I was a world-leader in my field. I was attending the right conferences, mentored by the right people, and showing that I could hold my own with heavy weights. Psychologically it was taxing. I was very strict about keeping work/life separate which was good. However, my research itself was very isolating and I found my self drinking far more than I should to cope with the scientific and economic stress of the job. Health-wise it was challenging. Drinking problem aside, my hair went grey, my hypertension spiked, and I gained 50 pounds. The work schedule and accommodations of the university made exercising just too hard to fit into a normal schedule. During grad school I worked out 3-6 times per week, during my post-doc I could barely fit in once per week. Economically it was near disastrous. Quite frankly, if I didn't have outside support I wouldn't have been able to make rent. Even with that, I ran up about 10K in credit card debt and was forced to each rice/beans, and dollar menu lunches just to keep my head above water. I was the highest paid post-doc in the building and I was one mishap away from bankruptcy. In the end, I jumped ship. I had a very good shot a landing a faculty position (multiple top tier first author papers), but it just wasn't worth it. The stress, moving, and lost income was just too much of a burden. So instead I took a job at a quasi-academic institute and tripled my income. I regret nothing.

heinrichf 9y ago
Would you agree to share your research area ?
- searine 9y ago
  Genomics / Bioinformatics. I was very lucky. Because of my field I got a premium post-doc position and salary and I easily transitioned to a non-academic position due to my comp sci background. Many biologists aren't so lucky...