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Contrast the Mongolians celebration of their imperial glory with western guilt about imperialism. Why is one OK and the other not? Is it just a matter of timesc

Contrast the Mongolians celebration of their imperial glory with western guilt about imperialism. Why is one OK and the other not? Is it just a matter of timescale or perspective? It makes me think about how the Georgians celebrate Stalin, whilst everyone else seems to consider him a butcher.

beisner 9y ago
They had different notions about equality. I'm not sure about the mongols, but many civilizations believed that their king was chosen by God, and his moral directive was to conquer all the earth.
- logicchains 9y ago
  Like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny?
vowelless 9y ago
It's probably because of the Age of Enlightenment in the west that did a thorough self evaluation over a few centuries. That type of self evaluation is rare in other cultures. As someone from the middle East (with a high chance of having Mongol blood), it does annoy me how much people are enamoured by Genghis khan. The guy was a brutal imperialist.
- e59d134d 9y ago
  Hypocrisy is amazing in most of the world. I was international student and met many at my university. It was mind boggling how almost everyone would celebrate their cultures' conquests & wars and at the same time call Western conquests evil and the worst thing. It was also amazing how most of the Western students would agree that Western imperialism was horrible but never argue against glorification of other cultures horrible wars.
  - sumedh 9y ago
    I guess it's because of the timescales. I am assuming the people who celebrate the wars of kings in their lands are more than 500 years old while Western colonialism sort of stopped just 50-100 years back. So the Western atrocities are still fresh in the mind while people forget the 1000 year old atrocities.
    - roywiggins 9y ago
      For example, the crimes of the British during the Mau Mau rebellion are within living memory. And, importantly, the current British government is a successor to the one that oversaw those crimes.
      - vidarh 9y ago
        And conversely several African states have governments that either took part in the fight against colonialism personally, or are from families where family members fought the colonial powers. E.g. when looking at Robert Mugabe's hostility towards Britain in particular (without wanting to justify his authoritarianism and violence) it is worth considering that he fought for independence, and though Britain as responsible for allowing Rhodesia to happen.
    - e59d134d 9y ago
      I guess this does make sense. I wish people stop glorifying violence distance past, recent past or present.
  - rbg246 9y ago
    What Western conquests were seen as evil out of interest? You mean colonisation? Or other wars?
    - e59d134d 9y ago
      Colonizations, almost all of my friends from international communities had their countries colonized by Western powers. A lot of them still blame colonization for current problems in their countries.
- davidreiss 9y ago
  > That type of self evaluation is rare in other cultures. It is rare everywhere. Even in the west. We celebrate george washington and have statues, schools, etc named after racist slavers and genocidal murderers. > It was also amazing how most of the Western students would agree that Western imperialism was horrible but never argue against glorification of other cultures horrible wars. Really? You think most of us think western imperialism was horrible? We may give lip service to it, but we celebrate our heritage. From ancient greece to rome to the british empire to now our american empire, we celebrate our conquests and victories. The standard trope amongst the british is that the british empire brought civilization and democracy to most of the world. Our justification for the american empire is that we bring "freedom" to the world.
- jimmyk 9y ago
  >It's probably because of the Age of Enlightenment in the west that did a thorough self evaluation over a few centuries. I'm not sure what a "thorough self evaluation" would actually mean. I don't think that's even remotely feasible, given the immense scope of the subject matter. What has happened is that certain elements within western civilization have focused their efforts on criticizing western civilization, some in good faith and some not, and the rest of western civilization has allowed them to do so. That is the part that is rare, just like suicide, and for the same reason.
mseebach 9y ago
I think the case for western imperial guilt is more than a little overstated -- but the main difference is that we (assuming you're a fellow westerner) live in a direct continuation of empire, and enjoy the spoils from it, in a way neither Mongolians or Georgians can be said to do.
- Boothroid 9y ago
  So then whether or not you are allowed to celebrate your lost empire depends on whether you are still experiencing the benefits of it, and not how terrible that empire was? Seems a strange way to judge things.
  - sirtaj 9y ago
    People still routinely admire the military prowess of western imperialist leaders like Caesar and Alexander ("the Great") and more recent ones like Napoleon without endorsing their reasons for going to war.
  - LeifCarrotson 9y ago
    It's more about whether the ideology of that empire infiltrated your subsequent historical narrative. Western culture is built on the results of the Greek and Roman empires, the Catholic Church, the English (and French/Spanish/Portuguese/Dutch) empire, and the American conquest. No one is the villain of their own story. And these empires - not the Persian, Ottoman, Germanic, native American, Russian, and other empires which opposed them, or the Chinese, Japanese, and Mongolian, and other empires which didn't feature in their storyline - wrote the storybooks. It's the natural way to judge things - perhaps not the most accurate or honest, but those take a lot of effort to establish.
Yizahi 9y ago
Why is it always guilt/non-guilt binary split? Isn't there some "simply not a good stuff" in between those polar responses?
empath75 9y ago
What do you mean that it's okay? Why does anyone say it's okay? It's something that happened 800 years ago, and Mongolia is a currently a small country threatening to no one. It would be less okay if they started mobilizing their army and threatening their neighbors while celebrating their imperial past.
- Boothroid 9y ago
  I'm not sure what your point is. Which country are you referring to that's threatening its neighbours? Care to respond rather than downvote?
  - swombat 9y ago
    Well, the US for one...
    - Boothroid 9y ago
      What Venezuela you mean?
Jack000 9y ago
well their empire didn't survive. If the Mongolian empire or the Soviets became social democracies today they may be grappling with the same issues. now their memories are faded and people are free to lionize without a lot of outcry.
legulere 9y ago
There's also no western guilt about Alexander the Great, Caesar and other Romans, north Germanic raids (Vikings), eastern Germanic conquests (goths, vandals, etc.)
- Boothroid 9y ago
  But they are also not widely celebrated, are they?
- vim_wannabe 9y ago
  Hehe, this made me interested. Coming from a small European country what are the things I should be ashamed of? Just the British and Americans? Or are Spanish/Portuguese empires also something I should be constantly aware of.
  - Boothroid 9y ago
    The Belgian Congo was a miserable episode in history by all accounts - often considered one of most terrible examples of recent colonialism. Something to bear in mind next time next time you are chomping down on a delicious Belgian chocolate what with that industry being a direct legacy of colonialism.
    - vim_wannabe 9y ago
      I will definitely keep this in mind and flog myself on a bimonthly schedule. Luckily I havent seen any Belgian chocolate on sale here yet, ha. Hopefully the Swiss have stayed isolated long enough to not add in any more European guilt!
      - roywiggins 9y ago
        There is the whole Nazi gold thing. https://mobile.nytimes.com/1996/12/14/world/swiss-acknowledge-profiting-from-nazi-gold.html https://mobile.nytimes.com/1996/12/14/world/swiss-acknowledg...
  - adventured 9y ago
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
astine 9y ago
I've never personally felt guilty for imperialism, but if I were to visit my brother I would meet a number of native Americans who's ancestors were beat down by people of the same race as my ancestors. Those natives still suffer the consequences of that. The Mongols are now more at the mercy of the Chinese rather than visa-versa. It's less crass for them to reminisce about there glory days and triumphs against a people who now dominate them, than it would be for white men in my country to reminisce about conquering a people whom they still dominate. That said, there are still people pissed about the Mongol conquest. Genghis Khan is still hated in China, and central Asia and especially the middle east.
- k_sze 9y ago
  I'm not sure where you get the idea that Genghis Khan is hated in China. As far as I know, he is considered one of the national heroes, I guess partly because China controls Inner Mongolia. For instance, in popular culture, such as Jinyong's Legend of the Condor Heroes, Genghis Khan is a secondary character, depicted as a smart leader who was shaped by the treachery of his own sworn brother and by the oppression of the Jurchen Jin dynasty. The reader is lead to empathize with Genghis Khan, through the eyes of Guojing, the patriotic Sung protagonist, despite the resentment that exists between him and Genghis Khan, the Mongolian leader who has decided to turn on their Sung dynasty allies. I know Jinyong's work is fiction with a historical background, but I believe his work is a good indication of Chinese sentiments towards historical events and figures.
  - astine 9y ago
    I had read that there was resentment against the Mongols and Yuan dynasty in China due to the destruction they caused. It could be that my information is not so current. I'm willing to be wrong on that point.
  - cba4321 9y ago
    As a Chinese I don't think he is national hero at all, and most people I know don't regard him as hero, I'm not sure where did you get that idea. He was a conqueror for sure. Chinese suffered as much as other conquered lands, to say to least. The Yuan dynasty lasted less than a century, one of the shortest period in the history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan#Mixed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan#Mixed Even in the fiction `Jingyong`'s book, I wouldn't say the author had a bias favor Khan, I guess smart readers could read it from the book. The Khan would massacre every one if the be-seiged refuse to surrender, and they usually would drive herds of surrendered to the gate. Not to mention in the book the Kan is Kublai instead, and he is noway the secondary character.
davidreiss 9y ago
> Contrast the Mongolians celebration of their imperial glory with western guilt about imperialism. The mongols didn't exterminate the people they conquered and settle the land with mongols. > Why is one OK and the other not? For the same reason why nazi germany was exceptionally evil. The mongols weren't good. They were empire builders. But they didn't set out to exterminate people. The difference between western imperialism and mongol imperialism is that russians, chinese, koreans, turks, central asians, arabs, persians, siberians, etc still exist. Now compare that to what happened to the native americas, inuits, aborigines, etc.
- eponeponepon 9y ago
  > But they didn't set out to exterminate people. Well... they sort of did. It's just that their selection criteria amounted to "those who oppose us" rather than "those of ancestries we consider bad". On the macro-scale, there's little difference.
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  > The mongols weren't good. They were empire builders. But they didn't set out to exterminate people. Extermination wasn't their goal, but IIRC they had a policy of exterminating any who resisted them, as a lesson to others. That wasn't standard policy for all empire builders.
- mcguire 9y ago
  Plus, the Mongols improved the environment.
baursak 9y ago
Western guilt about imperialism is not even a mainstream thing. The U.S. media and pundits routinely celebrate American imperialism without calling it so. There are U.S. military bases all over the world, and not many feel any guilt about it. Columbus Day is still very much a thing and Queen Elizabeth is still very much of a celebrated Queen of England and a source of pride. Many more examples abound.

beisner 9y ago

They had different notions about equality. I'm not sure about the mongols, but many civilizations believed that their king was chosen by God, and his moral directive was to conquer all the earth.

logicchains 9y ago
Like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny?

vowelless 9y ago

It's probably because of the Age of Enlightenment in the west that did a thorough self evaluation over a few centuries. That type of self evaluation is rare in other cultures. As someone from the middle East (with a high chance of having Mongol blood), it does annoy me how much people are enamoured by Genghis khan. The guy was a brutal imperialist.

e59d134d 9y ago
Hypocrisy is amazing in most of the world. I was international student and met many at my university. It was mind boggling how almost everyone would celebrate their cultures' conquests & wars and at the same time call Western conquests evil and the worst thing. It was also amazing how most of the Western students would agree that Western imperialism was horrible but never argue against glorification of other cultures horrible wars.
- sumedh 9y ago
  I guess it's because of the timescales. I am assuming the people who celebrate the wars of kings in their lands are more than 500 years old while Western colonialism sort of stopped just 50-100 years back. So the Western atrocities are still fresh in the mind while people forget the 1000 year old atrocities.
  - roywiggins 9y ago
    For example, the crimes of the British during the Mau Mau rebellion are within living memory. And, importantly, the current British government is a successor to the one that oversaw those crimes.
    - vidarh 9y ago
      And conversely several African states have governments that either took part in the fight against colonialism personally, or are from families where family members fought the colonial powers. E.g. when looking at Robert Mugabe's hostility towards Britain in particular (without wanting to justify his authoritarianism and violence) it is worth considering that he fought for independence, and though Britain as responsible for allowing Rhodesia to happen.
  - e59d134d 9y ago
    I guess this does make sense. I wish people stop glorifying violence distance past, recent past or present.
- rbg246 9y ago
  What Western conquests were seen as evil out of interest? You mean colonisation? Or other wars?
  - e59d134d 9y ago
    Colonizations, almost all of my friends from international communities had their countries colonized by Western powers. A lot of them still blame colonization for current problems in their countries.
davidreiss 9y ago
> That type of self evaluation is rare in other cultures. It is rare everywhere. Even in the west. We celebrate george washington and have statues, schools, etc named after racist slavers and genocidal murderers. > It was also amazing how most of the Western students would agree that Western imperialism was horrible but never argue against glorification of other cultures horrible wars. Really? You think most of us think western imperialism was horrible? We may give lip service to it, but we celebrate our heritage. From ancient greece to rome to the british empire to now our american empire, we celebrate our conquests and victories. The standard trope amongst the british is that the british empire brought civilization and democracy to most of the world. Our justification for the american empire is that we bring "freedom" to the world.
jimmyk 9y ago
>It's probably because of the Age of Enlightenment in the west that did a thorough self evaluation over a few centuries. I'm not sure what a "thorough self evaluation" would actually mean. I don't think that's even remotely feasible, given the immense scope of the subject matter. What has happened is that certain elements within western civilization have focused their efforts on criticizing western civilization, some in good faith and some not, and the rest of western civilization has allowed them to do so. That is the part that is rare, just like suicide, and for the same reason.

mseebach 9y ago

I think the case for western imperial guilt is more than a little overstated -- but the main difference is that we (assuming you're a fellow westerner) live in a direct continuation of empire, and enjoy the spoils from it, in a way neither Mongolians or Georgians can be said to do.

Boothroid 9y ago
So then whether or not you are allowed to celebrate your lost empire depends on whether you are still experiencing the benefits of it, and not how terrible that empire was? Seems a strange way to judge things.
- sirtaj 9y ago
  People still routinely admire the military prowess of western imperialist leaders like Caesar and Alexander ("the Great") and more recent ones like Napoleon without endorsing their reasons for going to war.
- LeifCarrotson 9y ago
  It's more about whether the ideology of that empire infiltrated your subsequent historical narrative. Western culture is built on the results of the Greek and Roman empires, the Catholic Church, the English (and French/Spanish/Portuguese/Dutch) empire, and the American conquest. No one is the villain of their own story. And these empires - not the Persian, Ottoman, Germanic, native American, Russian, and other empires which opposed them, or the Chinese, Japanese, and Mongolian, and other empires which didn't feature in their storyline - wrote the storybooks. It's the natural way to judge things - perhaps not the most accurate or honest, but those take a lot of effort to establish.

Yizahi 9y ago

Why is it always guilt/non-guilt binary split? Isn't there some "simply not a good stuff" in between those polar responses?

empath75 9y ago

What do you mean that it's okay? Why does anyone say it's okay? It's something that happened 800 years ago, and Mongolia is a currently a small country threatening to no one. It would be less okay if they started mobilizing their army and threatening their neighbors while celebrating their imperial past.

Boothroid 9y ago
I'm not sure what your point is. Which country are you referring to that's threatening its neighbours? Care to respond rather than downvote?
- swombat 9y ago
  Well, the US for one...
  - Boothroid 9y ago
    What Venezuela you mean?

Jack000 9y ago

well their empire didn't survive. If the Mongolian empire or the Soviets became social democracies today they may be grappling with the same issues. now their memories are faded and people are free to lionize without a lot of outcry.

legulere 9y ago

There's also no western guilt about Alexander the Great, Caesar and other Romans, north Germanic raids (Vikings), eastern Germanic conquests (goths, vandals, etc.)

Boothroid 9y ago
But they are also not widely celebrated, are they?
vim_wannabe 9y ago
Hehe, this made me interested. Coming from a small European country what are the things I should be ashamed of? Just the British and Americans? Or are Spanish/Portuguese empires also something I should be constantly aware of.
- Boothroid 9y ago
  The Belgian Congo was a miserable episode in history by all accounts - often considered one of most terrible examples of recent colonialism. Something to bear in mind next time next time you are chomping down on a delicious Belgian chocolate what with that industry being a direct legacy of colonialism.
  - vim_wannabe 9y ago
    I will definitely keep this in mind and flog myself on a bimonthly schedule. Luckily I havent seen any Belgian chocolate on sale here yet, ha. Hopefully the Swiss have stayed isolated long enough to not add in any more European guilt!
    - roywiggins 9y ago
      There is the whole Nazi gold thing. https://mobile.nytimes.com/1996/12/14/world/swiss-acknowledge-profiting-from-nazi-gold.html https://mobile.nytimes.com/1996/12/14/world/swiss-acknowledg...
- adventured 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

astine 9y ago

I've never personally felt guilty for imperialism, but if I were to visit my brother I would meet a number of native Americans who's ancestors were beat down by people of the same race as my ancestors. Those natives still suffer the consequences of that. The Mongols are now more at the mercy of the Chinese rather than visa-versa. It's less crass for them to reminisce about there glory days and triumphs against a people who now dominate them, than it would be for white men in my country to reminisce about conquering a people whom they still dominate. That said, there are still people pissed about the Mongol conquest. Genghis Khan is still hated in China, and central Asia and especially the middle east.

k_sze 9y ago
I'm not sure where you get the idea that Genghis Khan is hated in China. As far as I know, he is considered one of the national heroes, I guess partly because China controls Inner Mongolia. For instance, in popular culture, such as Jinyong's Legend of the Condor Heroes, Genghis Khan is a secondary character, depicted as a smart leader who was shaped by the treachery of his own sworn brother and by the oppression of the Jurchen Jin dynasty. The reader is lead to empathize with Genghis Khan, through the eyes of Guojing, the patriotic Sung protagonist, despite the resentment that exists between him and Genghis Khan, the Mongolian leader who has decided to turn on their Sung dynasty allies. I know Jinyong's work is fiction with a historical background, but I believe his work is a good indication of Chinese sentiments towards historical events and figures.
- astine 9y ago
  I had read that there was resentment against the Mongols and Yuan dynasty in China due to the destruction they caused. It could be that my information is not so current. I'm willing to be wrong on that point.
- cba4321 9y ago
  As a Chinese I don't think he is national hero at all, and most people I know don't regard him as hero, I'm not sure where did you get that idea. He was a conqueror for sure. Chinese suffered as much as other conquered lands, to say to least. The Yuan dynasty lasted less than a century, one of the shortest period in the history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan#Mixed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan#Mixed Even in the fiction `Jingyong`'s book, I wouldn't say the author had a bias favor Khan, I guess smart readers could read it from the book. The Khan would massacre every one if the be-seiged refuse to surrender, and they usually would drive herds of surrendered to the gate. Not to mention in the book the Kan is Kublai instead, and he is noway the secondary character.

davidreiss 9y ago

> Contrast the Mongolians celebration of their imperial glory with western guilt about imperialism. The mongols didn't exterminate the people they conquered and settle the land with mongols. > Why is one OK and the other not? For the same reason why nazi germany was exceptionally evil. The mongols weren't good. They were empire builders. But they didn't set out to exterminate people. The difference between western imperialism and mongol imperialism is that russians, chinese, koreans, turks, central asians, arabs, persians, siberians, etc still exist. Now compare that to what happened to the native americas, inuits, aborigines, etc.

eponeponepon 9y ago
> But they didn't set out to exterminate people. Well... they sort of did. It's just that their selection criteria amounted to "those who oppose us" rather than "those of ancestries we consider bad". On the macro-scale, there's little difference.
PhasmaFelis 9y ago
> The mongols weren't good. They were empire builders. But they didn't set out to exterminate people. Extermination wasn't their goal, but IIRC they had a policy of exterminating any who resisted them, as a lesson to others. That wasn't standard policy for all empire builders.
mcguire 9y ago
Plus, the Mongols improved the environment.

baursak 9y ago

Western guilt about imperialism is not even a mainstream thing. The U.S. media and pundits routinely celebrate American imperialism without calling it so. There are U.S. military bases all over the world, and not many feel any guilt about it. Columbus Day is still very much a thing and Queen Elizabeth is still very much of a celebrated Queen of England and a source of pride. Many more examples abound.