23 ms·

Personally, I think Google is just as terrifying, possibly more. As an example, just take a fairly normal life situation like going out for dinner with some fr

Personally, I think Google is just as terrifying, possibly more. As an example, just take a fairly normal life situation like going out for dinner with some friends, and think about how much of it goes "through" Google: --- One of your friends sends an email to 6 others, to ask if everyone's free for dinner on Friday. 5 of the 7 people involved use gmail or a google apps address. You've never heard of the restaurant they're suggesting, so you search for it on Google to see what kind of food it is. You click to the restaurant's site. It uses Google Analytics, so even though you're no longer on Google, it still knows the exact path you take through the site while you're "outside". You decide the restaurant looks good, and enter the dinner into Google Calendar. On Friday, you use Google Maps to get to the restaurant, so Google knows exactly where you were before, what time you left, and the route you took. While you're driving, maybe you send a couple of text messages using the Google voice assistant. At the restaurant, it turns out your friend Doug is there, even though he wasn't part of the emails. During dinner, you're all trying to remember the name of that movie where Shaq plays a genie, so both you and Doug grab your phones and google for phrases like "shaq movie genie" at about the same time. Even though Doug wasn't included in any of the planning, Google now knows that you're almost certainly together, and what you're talking about. You finish your meal and pay via the restaurant's Square system, which emails the receipt to your gmail address. Google now knows exactly what you ate, and how much you paid for it. You use Google Maps again when leaving, telling Google exactly how long you stayed at the restaurant and where you're going next. --- I didn't even push that very far. There are multiple other things I could have easily added, and you can do this with almost any situation. It's quite insane how much Google knows about what people are doing all the time, and the level of detail they can get by combining these things.

RodericDay 9y ago
Don't use Google. Be a stick in the mud, and stop your friends from using Google. Get upset at them if they include you. I basically told people if they won't contact me using tools not made by Google/Facebook, they shouldn't contact me at all. And it was fine (they installed Signal lol).
chiefalchemist 9y ago
Ironic isn't it. Google is a threat, but the media focuses on a random memo. Not dismissing the memo, but it pales in comparison to Google's larger scope.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  Unfortunately, the outrage of people about some issue is usually inversely proportional to its importance. This seems to be a general fact about humans.
  - chiefalchemist 9y ago
    The "outrage" is a function of the MSM's ability to make money off the issue. I'm not sure about God, but journalism is certainly dead.
newscracker 9y ago
You have listed all the reasons that make Android very valuable for Google. At the same time, do you believe Google can be as evil as Facebook? I personally believe it isn't and won't be (so it's just the lesser evil). I wouldn't trust Facebook to not be evil, based on its poor track record on privacy and treating users badly as well as its highly ambitious and callous founder/CEO. I'm also sure that Facebook has been working on dismantling the Google ecosystem or bypassing it wherever possible to control and retain user attention.
- lobotryas 9y ago
  > Google can be as evil as Facebook Personally I believe Google _IS_ much worse than FB for one simple reason: it's much easier to avoid FB than Google. With FB the story is simple. You'll miss out on some news/invites from FB-centric friends, but it's pretty easy to go without (or to even find new friends who aren't as hooked on FB as needed). "Avoiding" Google in your daily life is much, much harder. Their free mail offering is still top-notch. Their search is absolutely incredible. Depending on what you do this list can go on and on. Also, these are things we can't really just "do without" like in FB's case. Alternatives do exist, but often are either paid or not as good. Personally, I'n going to try and transition away from Google this year just to see how far I can get. Should be an interesting experiment.
  - fao_ 9y ago
    Some personal recommendations from a random Hacker News: For mail I recommend: inventati.org (And if you use them please donate to them!) For search I recommend: duckduckgo.com (Spend some time using the bang syntax-- such as !w for wikipedia pages --it makes life about 10x easier! For maps I recommend: openstreetmaps.org There are more on https://www.privacytools.io/ https://www.privacytools.io/
  - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
    If I can affect just one person here today... Please please please stop using Gmail for important communication and account recovery (banking, mission critical services you maintain, etc etc). Use a paid service from a reputable company who does that one thing only and does it well. Too many Gmail horror stories.
tarr11 9y ago
This would make a good Black Mirror episode.
aphextron 9y ago
The conclusion I've come to regarding Google is that you just have to accept it for now. The services that they provide are so above and beyond anything from any other provider that to not use them puts you at a great disadvantage. Google search is an order of magnitude above the competition. There is no serious alternative to Google maps. The level of integration that Google Calendar has with practically everything is unmatched. As such I've placed my trust for now in Google and only Google. That's the key. I've decided to collocate all of my privacy concerns to one single company which I feel is at least moderately trustworthy, and which supports an open Web. Because in the end, I do not think that Google is fundamentally evil. Facebook on the other hand provides absolutely nothing of value to anyone really. The entirety of their service can be replaced with an IRC client and a free image host. The walled garden they have cultivated will be laughed at in the future the same way we see AOL now. I am completely convinced that they are a fundamentally evil company. The sooner the world realizes that it is nothing more than a creepy spying/advertisement platform the better.
- tempodox 9y ago
  Google uses the information they collect on you to target their ads (and who knows what else), just as Facebook does. They happen to have a bit more window dressing that is of actual utility. All that makes them is a bit smarter but not fundamentally better than FB.
  - Zarath 9y ago
    s/bit/lot
- dTal 9y ago
  Neither is "fundamentally evil", and also both are. They are both corporations attempting to keep you in their ecosystem, using similar methods, that fundamentally make their money from targeting ads to you. There's no evil overlord at the top of either company (I hope) - their evilness must be judged by how likely each of them are to lead us into a techno-dystopia. And the more you consolidate to Google, the closer they become to The Corporation from every dystopian sci-fi ever. Also, Facebook does provide something of value, though the cost is too great: they are the centralised provider of the One True Social Graph, and by extension your True Identity, which has numerous uses and no decentralised competitor. It's increasingly popular to use Facebook login on third party sites, because it mitigates to some extent the creation of throwaway accounts, which was hitherto considered a largely intractable problem.
codyb 9y ago
It's pretty incredible. Search history and e-mail alone almost certainly reveal staggering amounts of personal information about most people. I try to "spread" my data. Apple for maps/messaging/photos, Signal, DuckDuckGo, Gmail, and primarily private tab web surfing. I also use different browsers for different concerns. And of course ad blockers although I'm not sure I've installed them everywhere. With my lack of social media accounts and a reup of my PIA subscription it feels like it should be a fairly private set up. Of course, if I was really going all the way I'd use cash for everything, and curb the very modest amount of shopping I do on Amazon. I believe creeit cards almost certainly sell information based on your purchase history. Oh! And don't forget a hat and sunglasses to avoid the myriad of cameras I'd come across in my day to day as a metropolitan. And of course to turn off wi-fi and bluetooth when in transit. Might even be better to go into airplane mode. So yea, just get a landline. Use snail mail (although addresses may be scanned). Hang a calendar on the wall (they are pretty, mine is pictures of Italy), stay off social media, use cash, disguise your features, and I dunno, use the internet at the library or something. In the end, it's a giant pain and it's amazing how many vectors there are for information retrieval on the average citizen of the information age.
- Deimorz 9y ago
  It gets even more frightening if you realize that you're probably not even considering all of the "deeper" levels. Almost everything I listed in my comment was pretty surface-level stuff, where it's at least somewhat obvious that you're giving the data to them (some things like the analytics not so much, but still not really "hidden"). But now start thinking about some other things: - Are any of the sites you're using hosted on GCP (or other Google-owned hosting)? - Even if they're not, do they include any scripts/images/fonts/etc. from other sites that are? - How much network infrastructure does Google own now? How much of your traffic is passing through it?
  - jfktrey 9y ago
    It almost seems impossible to use the internet for even a day without having some usage information leaked to Google.
RobertoG 9y ago
Lately, I'm getting even more paranoid with Google. I have the location in my Android inactive and everytime I open google maps I get the message: "To continue, let your device turn on location, which uses Google's location service. cancel - ok" I have to click cancel every time. I think the language is disingenuous, because if you click cancel you can use the maps anyway. I suppose I should stop using Google Maps. I use duckduckgo in my android, and the other day I realized that the keyboard where I'm typing is "Gboard - The Google Keyboard". I suppose it's not calling home with every key, but who knows?, or, if it's not calling, if this will change in the future.
- zipwitch 9y ago
  You may want to check out OpenStreetMap. http://www.openstreetmap.org/ http://www.openstreetmap.org/
  - pacala 9y ago
    http://maps.me http://maps.me For mobile, totally offline, uses OpenStreetMap data.
    - Nition 9y ago
      Nokia HERE WeGo[1] also does offline GPS maps. You can download whole countries as vector map data. MAPS.ME looks really good but I know some areas around here don't have great OpenStreetMap data yet, whereas they do have complete road data on Nokia's app. [1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.here.app.maps&hl=en https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.here.app.m...
      - pacala 9y ago
        Cool! FWIW, around Pacific North West, I found OpenStreetMap data is significantly more detailed than Google's for hiking and pedestrian points of interest.
dannysu 9y ago
Facebook is like a Casino. They'll try to maneuver to keep you engaged and contain you in their bubble. However, if you're able to leave or cut your usage, they extend no influence whatsoever. (Don't have mobile apps installed, block their trackers, don't use Facebook login, etc) There are lots of ways to communicate outside of Facebook, including other messaging apps that help you form social networks outside of it. My extended family use Line for communication. Google on the other hand is like the road. You can't avoid the road.
- fao_ 9y ago
  Roads are pretty benign, and they don't steal your location data and store it in their database
  - AndrewKemendo 9y ago
    I hate to break it to you but the state police and most toll road authorities have put an entire network of cameras on every major interstate and road system to be able to track cars.
    - DenisM 9y ago
      If that were true would there still be a need for amber alert?
      - mulmen 9y ago
        Yes because cameras do not cover all parts of every road.
    - fao_ 9y ago
      I don't live in America :P
      - Cyph0n 9y ago
        Most developed countries have similar systems in place. Heck, I'd wager that the US is lagging behind other countries in this area, primarily due to its size.
binthere 9y ago
In the end it's your/our choice to choose Google for every single decision you've described. It's not like we can't do it without Google, we used to do fine doing the same things before Google. I think it's unsettling how many people choose to do almost everything using Google, Facebook, Amazon.
- Deimorz 9y ago
  That's not really true at all. Almost everyone uses Google-controlled email addresses, so even if I don't, Google still gets our entire conversations. There's no option to avoid that except just refusing to email almost everyone. You also don't really "choose" to give your data through Google Analytics. You can block it, but that's a lot different than choosing to give it in the first place. Even if you do block it, that's still only client-side and it's possible that the site is sending data through other methods that you can't control. And like I mentioned in another comment already, what about sites that are hosted on GCP, sites that make requests to other sites that are hosted on GCP, Google network infrastructure, etc.? You get a choice about some of it, but certainly nowhere near all of it.
mattlondon 9y ago
You can go a long way to blocking a lot of these by using some alternatives: * Using DuckDuckGo (https://duckduckgo.com/ https://duckduckgo.com/). It is really decent and has good desktop and mobile integration. * Using a browser like Brave (https://www.brave.com/ https://www.brave.com/) that blocks trackers etc. Android app is superb. * Using a Maps replacement like OSM (https://www.openstreetmap.org https://www.openstreetmap.org) on desktop and OsmAnd on mobile (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand) * Pay in cash, or pay using pre-paid credit cards that you change every couple of months. * For real paranoia, get a VPN app and pick a new country & server every day. Email is harder if you are emailing people who use gmail. For what it is worth, as of June 2017 gmail no longer scans email content for ads (in both commercial and consumer/free gmail - https://www.blog.google/products/gmail/g-suite-gains-traction-in-the-enterprise-g-suites-gmail-and-consumer-gmail-to-more-closely-align/ https://www.blog.google/products/gmail/g-suite-gains-tractio...) Personally I use my inbox as my calendar - dont think you're missing much by just not using calendar at all unless you have a very, very hectic schedule. I deleted my facebook account many years ago. I've not missed it.
- benevol 9y ago
  And don't forget to protect yourself against browser and device fingerprint tracking.
  - mattlondon 9y ago
    I think that brave is working on anti-fingerprinting stuff too: https://brave.com/bebraveday/ https://brave.com/bebraveday/
- glandium 9y ago
  > For what it is worth, as of June 2017 gmail no longer scans email content for ads The important part of that sentence is "for ads". Obviously, they don't do antispam out of thin air, they still have to scan email for it.
  - 9y ago
amiga-workbench 9y ago
I was a bit creeped out the other day when I was off work sick, and Google play music offered up a "working from home" radio station.
imaginenore 9y ago
What exactly is scary in that scenario? So Google knows that you went somewhere and who your friends are. I don't see a problem. The actually bad thing would be something like - you watch alt-right YouTube videos, and Google doesn't hire you because of that if you apply for a job. But even that isn't remotely close to the totalitarian government level of oppression, where you get executed for disagreeing with the party line. Chances are, you are not important, and nobody cares where you go to eat and whoats with you.
- jodrellblank 9y ago
  What's scary is that they aren't aligned with your interests. The actually bad thing is everybody acts like a) they are, and b) they can't and won't ever change. Chances are, you are not important, and nobody is looking out to make sure they don't crush you. In this scenario, you are the bug on the interstate which hits a car windshield. "Oh but the humans aren't out to get you, look at this big open space they made for us, what's so bad if the car knows where you are?".
- ionised 9y ago
  Nobody is important until they suddenly are. The Nazis used highly in-depth Dutch census data during WW2 to hunt down and murder Jews and undsesirables in the country. That data was considered harmless, even useful by the population to that point. Things changed, and that data became very useful to evil people. This is why people in Germany and many eastern European countries are not sold on government surveillance for their own good, they lived under pervasive Soviet surveillance. That kind of power can and likely will end up in the wrong hands eventually, so it is always best to keep it in check or just not have it at all.
j_s 9y ago
Here is the webcomic with Facebook pushing aside "big brother" as an amateur, then revealing a giant Google looming ominously behind them both. http://joyreactor.com/post/331191 http://joyreactor.com/post/331191
thelittleone 9y ago
I suspect many Internet users are unaware that Google also owns reCAPTCHA.
dredmorbius 9y ago
If I could point to the flaw in both your and the article's arguments, it's trying to paint either as worse than the other. Both are exceedingly bad. Both have proven exceedingly harmful (and, yes, useful, which is actually a reason why they're so perniciously harmful). I never fell into Facebook's maw, though that's cost some inconvenience. I've somewhat extracted myself from Google's, though still only partially: DuckDuckGo for search. It's quite good, and I prefer bang search and actual, direct links rather than Google redirects. Though I still miss ranged date search. OpenStreetMap for maps. ProtonMail for email. It's not everything it could be, the client has some annoying limitations, and neither IMAPS nor POPS are supported. But at least it's not Gmail. There are other options as well. My router blocks Google analytics, and a large set of other adtech hosts. Despite being known as a critic of it, I use G+ heavily. With appropriate pruning and blocking, it's useful.
codeisawesome 9y ago
If there's a series of news articles on Shaq, even more data than just GA can now be collected thanks to no-opt-out AMP
PeanutCurry 9y ago
I mean this without any intention to be rhetorical, but, how common is sending emails to plan an event? For anyone I meet in real life I either talk to them in real life, message them on discord, or call them on the phone. I've got nothing against email, I use it for a lot of things, but it's just too sluggish for event planning in my experience. Occasionally I might use facebook but that's for big consistent events like hosting a yearly get together because I live closest to a fairly big convention that happens in my city.
wutbrodo 9y ago
Yea, I have a lot less faith in the explicitly-unethical Facebook and its leadership than in Google, and that's been the case pretty much since Facebook came on the scene. But how principled the founders are is only one part of the picture, and Google just has the potential to be a lot scarier. People change, companies outlive tight control by individual people, and explicitly-evil actors with armies force companies to do things or compromise their systems (this already happened to some degree a few years ago). I don't really understand why HN goes on and on about how social media is inevitable and you're just a victim of its use. It's pretty easy to drop Facebook and pay a pretty trivial cost. Avoiding Google products, on the other hand, requires a sustained attempt in a dozen different product areas to use usually-inferior products. It's not impossible, but you pay a fairly hefty cost, to the point that most people don't bother. As you mention, they also have a lot finer grained data about what you actually do, as opposed to Facebook mostly knowing what you care to share.

RodericDay 9y ago

Don't use Google. Be a stick in the mud, and stop your friends from using Google. Get upset at them if they include you. I basically told people if they won't contact me using tools not made by Google/Facebook, they shouldn't contact me at all. And it was fine (they installed Signal lol).

chiefalchemist 9y ago

Ironic isn't it. Google is a threat, but the media focuses on a random memo. Not dismissing the memo, but it pales in comparison to Google's larger scope.

TeMPOraL 9y ago
Unfortunately, the outrage of people about some issue is usually inversely proportional to its importance. This seems to be a general fact about humans.
- chiefalchemist 9y ago
  The "outrage" is a function of the MSM's ability to make money off the issue. I'm not sure about God, but journalism is certainly dead.

newscracker 9y ago

You have listed all the reasons that make Android very valuable for Google. At the same time, do you believe Google can be as evil as Facebook? I personally believe it isn't and won't be (so it's just the lesser evil). I wouldn't trust Facebook to not be evil, based on its poor track record on privacy and treating users badly as well as its highly ambitious and callous founder/CEO. I'm also sure that Facebook has been working on dismantling the Google ecosystem or bypassing it wherever possible to control and retain user attention.

lobotryas 9y ago
> Google can be as evil as Facebook Personally I believe Google _IS_ much worse than FB for one simple reason: it's much easier to avoid FB than Google. With FB the story is simple. You'll miss out on some news/invites from FB-centric friends, but it's pretty easy to go without (or to even find new friends who aren't as hooked on FB as needed). "Avoiding" Google in your daily life is much, much harder. Their free mail offering is still top-notch. Their search is absolutely incredible. Depending on what you do this list can go on and on. Also, these are things we can't really just "do without" like in FB's case. Alternatives do exist, but often are either paid or not as good. Personally, I'n going to try and transition away from Google this year just to see how far I can get. Should be an interesting experiment.
- fao_ 9y ago
  Some personal recommendations from a random Hacker News: For mail I recommend: inventati.org (And if you use them please donate to them!) For search I recommend: duckduckgo.com (Spend some time using the bang syntax-- such as !w for wikipedia pages --it makes life about 10x easier! For maps I recommend: openstreetmaps.org There are more on https://www.privacytools.io/ https://www.privacytools.io/
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  If I can affect just one person here today... Please please please stop using Gmail for important communication and account recovery (banking, mission critical services you maintain, etc etc). Use a paid service from a reputable company who does that one thing only and does it well. Too many Gmail horror stories.

tarr11 9y ago

This would make a good Black Mirror episode.

aphextron 9y ago

The conclusion I've come to regarding Google is that you just have to accept it for now. The services that they provide are so above and beyond anything from any other provider that to not use them puts you at a great disadvantage. Google search is an order of magnitude above the competition. There is no serious alternative to Google maps. The level of integration that Google Calendar has with practically everything is unmatched. As such I've placed my trust for now in Google and only Google. That's the key. I've decided to collocate all of my privacy concerns to one single company which I feel is at least moderately trustworthy, and which supports an open Web. Because in the end, I do not think that Google is fundamentally evil. Facebook on the other hand provides absolutely nothing of value to anyone really. The entirety of their service can be replaced with an IRC client and a free image host. The walled garden they have cultivated will be laughed at in the future the same way we see AOL now. I am completely convinced that they are a fundamentally evil company. The sooner the world realizes that it is nothing more than a creepy spying/advertisement platform the better.

tempodox 9y ago
Google uses the information they collect on you to target their ads (and who knows what else), just as Facebook does. They happen to have a bit more window dressing that is of actual utility. All that makes them is a bit smarter but not fundamentally better than FB.
- Zarath 9y ago
  s/bit/lot
dTal 9y ago
Neither is "fundamentally evil", and also both are. They are both corporations attempting to keep you in their ecosystem, using similar methods, that fundamentally make their money from targeting ads to you. There's no evil overlord at the top of either company (I hope) - their evilness must be judged by how likely each of them are to lead us into a techno-dystopia. And the more you consolidate to Google, the closer they become to The Corporation from every dystopian sci-fi ever. Also, Facebook does provide something of value, though the cost is too great: they are the centralised provider of the One True Social Graph, and by extension your True Identity, which has numerous uses and no decentralised competitor. It's increasingly popular to use Facebook login on third party sites, because it mitigates to some extent the creation of throwaway accounts, which was hitherto considered a largely intractable problem.

codyb 9y ago

It's pretty incredible. Search history and e-mail alone almost certainly reveal staggering amounts of personal information about most people. I try to "spread" my data. Apple for maps/messaging/photos, Signal, DuckDuckGo, Gmail, and primarily private tab web surfing. I also use different browsers for different concerns. And of course ad blockers although I'm not sure I've installed them everywhere. With my lack of social media accounts and a reup of my PIA subscription it feels like it should be a fairly private set up. Of course, if I was really going all the way I'd use cash for everything, and curb the very modest amount of shopping I do on Amazon. I believe creeit cards almost certainly sell information based on your purchase history. Oh! And don't forget a hat and sunglasses to avoid the myriad of cameras I'd come across in my day to day as a metropolitan. And of course to turn off wi-fi and bluetooth when in transit. Might even be better to go into airplane mode. So yea, just get a landline. Use snail mail (although addresses may be scanned). Hang a calendar on the wall (they are pretty, mine is pictures of Italy), stay off social media, use cash, disguise your features, and I dunno, use the internet at the library or something. In the end, it's a giant pain and it's amazing how many vectors there are for information retrieval on the average citizen of the information age.

Deimorz 9y ago
It gets even more frightening if you realize that you're probably not even considering all of the "deeper" levels. Almost everything I listed in my comment was pretty surface-level stuff, where it's at least somewhat obvious that you're giving the data to them (some things like the analytics not so much, but still not really "hidden"). But now start thinking about some other things: - Are any of the sites you're using hosted on GCP (or other Google-owned hosting)? - Even if they're not, do they include any scripts/images/fonts/etc. from other sites that are? - How much network infrastructure does Google own now? How much of your traffic is passing through it?
- jfktrey 9y ago
  It almost seems impossible to use the internet for even a day without having some usage information leaked to Google.

RobertoG 9y ago

Lately, I'm getting even more paranoid with Google. I have the location in my Android inactive and everytime I open google maps I get the message: "To continue, let your device turn on location, which uses Google's location service. cancel - ok" I have to click cancel every time. I think the language is disingenuous, because if you click cancel you can use the maps anyway. I suppose I should stop using Google Maps. I use duckduckgo in my android, and the other day I realized that the keyboard where I'm typing is "Gboard - The Google Keyboard". I suppose it's not calling home with every key, but who knows?, or, if it's not calling, if this will change in the future.

zipwitch 9y ago
You may want to check out OpenStreetMap. http://www.openstreetmap.org/ http://www.openstreetmap.org/
- pacala 9y ago
  http://maps.me http://maps.me For mobile, totally offline, uses OpenStreetMap data.
  - Nition 9y ago
    Nokia HERE WeGo[1] also does offline GPS maps. You can download whole countries as vector map data. MAPS.ME looks really good but I know some areas around here don't have great OpenStreetMap data yet, whereas they do have complete road data on Nokia's app. [1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.here.app.maps&hl=en https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.here.app.m...
    - pacala 9y ago
      Cool! FWIW, around Pacific North West, I found OpenStreetMap data is significantly more detailed than Google's for hiking and pedestrian points of interest.

dannysu 9y ago

Facebook is like a Casino. They'll try to maneuver to keep you engaged and contain you in their bubble. However, if you're able to leave or cut your usage, they extend no influence whatsoever. (Don't have mobile apps installed, block their trackers, don't use Facebook login, etc) There are lots of ways to communicate outside of Facebook, including other messaging apps that help you form social networks outside of it. My extended family use Line for communication. Google on the other hand is like the road. You can't avoid the road.

fao_ 9y ago
Roads are pretty benign, and they don't steal your location data and store it in their database
- AndrewKemendo 9y ago
  I hate to break it to you but the state police and most toll road authorities have put an entire network of cameras on every major interstate and road system to be able to track cars.
  - DenisM 9y ago
    If that were true would there still be a need for amber alert?
    - mulmen 9y ago
      Yes because cameras do not cover all parts of every road.
  - fao_ 9y ago
    I don't live in America :P
    - Cyph0n 9y ago
      Most developed countries have similar systems in place. Heck, I'd wager that the US is lagging behind other countries in this area, primarily due to its size.

binthere 9y ago

In the end it's your/our choice to choose Google for every single decision you've described. It's not like we can't do it without Google, we used to do fine doing the same things before Google. I think it's unsettling how many people choose to do almost everything using Google, Facebook, Amazon.

Deimorz 9y ago
That's not really true at all. Almost everyone uses Google-controlled email addresses, so even if I don't, Google still gets our entire conversations. There's no option to avoid that except just refusing to email almost everyone. You also don't really "choose" to give your data through Google Analytics. You can block it, but that's a lot different than choosing to give it in the first place. Even if you do block it, that's still only client-side and it's possible that the site is sending data through other methods that you can't control. And like I mentioned in another comment already, what about sites that are hosted on GCP, sites that make requests to other sites that are hosted on GCP, Google network infrastructure, etc.? You get a choice about some of it, but certainly nowhere near all of it.

mattlondon 9y ago

You can go a long way to blocking a lot of these by using some alternatives: * Using DuckDuckGo (https://duckduckgo.com/ https://duckduckgo.com/). It is really decent and has good desktop and mobile integration. * Using a browser like Brave (https://www.brave.com/ https://www.brave.com/) that blocks trackers etc. Android app is superb. * Using a Maps replacement like OSM (https://www.openstreetmap.org https://www.openstreetmap.org) on desktop and OsmAnd on mobile (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand) * Pay in cash, or pay using pre-paid credit cards that you change every couple of months. * For real paranoia, get a VPN app and pick a new country & server every day. Email is harder if you are emailing people who use gmail. For what it is worth, as of June 2017 gmail no longer scans email content for ads (in both commercial and consumer/free gmail - https://www.blog.google/products/gmail/g-suite-gains-traction-in-the-enterprise-g-suites-gmail-and-consumer-gmail-to-more-closely-align/ https://www.blog.google/products/gmail/g-suite-gains-tractio...) Personally I use my inbox as my calendar - dont think you're missing much by just not using calendar at all unless you have a very, very hectic schedule. I deleted my facebook account many years ago. I've not missed it.

benevol 9y ago
And don't forget to protect yourself against browser and device fingerprint tracking.
- mattlondon 9y ago
  I think that brave is working on anti-fingerprinting stuff too: https://brave.com/bebraveday/ https://brave.com/bebraveday/
glandium 9y ago
> For what it is worth, as of June 2017 gmail no longer scans email content for ads The important part of that sentence is "for ads". Obviously, they don't do antispam out of thin air, they still have to scan email for it.
- 9y ago

amiga-workbench 9y ago

I was a bit creeped out the other day when I was off work sick, and Google play music offered up a "working from home" radio station.

imaginenore 9y ago

What exactly is scary in that scenario? So Google knows that you went somewhere and who your friends are. I don't see a problem. The actually bad thing would be something like - you watch alt-right YouTube videos, and Google doesn't hire you because of that if you apply for a job. But even that isn't remotely close to the totalitarian government level of oppression, where you get executed for disagreeing with the party line. Chances are, you are not important, and nobody cares where you go to eat and whoats with you.

jodrellblank 9y ago
What's scary is that they aren't aligned with your interests. The actually bad thing is everybody acts like a) they are, and b) they can't and won't ever change. Chances are, you are not important, and nobody is looking out to make sure they don't crush you. In this scenario, you are the bug on the interstate which hits a car windshield. "Oh but the humans aren't out to get you, look at this big open space they made for us, what's so bad if the car knows where you are?".
ionised 9y ago
Nobody is important until they suddenly are. The Nazis used highly in-depth Dutch census data during WW2 to hunt down and murder Jews and undsesirables in the country. That data was considered harmless, even useful by the population to that point. Things changed, and that data became very useful to evil people. This is why people in Germany and many eastern European countries are not sold on government surveillance for their own good, they lived under pervasive Soviet surveillance. That kind of power can and likely will end up in the wrong hands eventually, so it is always best to keep it in check or just not have it at all.

j_s 9y ago

Here is the webcomic with Facebook pushing aside "big brother" as an amateur, then revealing a giant Google looming ominously behind them both. http://joyreactor.com/post/331191 http://joyreactor.com/post/331191

thelittleone 9y ago

I suspect many Internet users are unaware that Google also owns reCAPTCHA.

dredmorbius 9y ago

If I could point to the flaw in both your and the article's arguments, it's trying to paint either as worse than the other. Both are exceedingly bad. Both have proven exceedingly harmful (and, yes, useful, which is actually a reason why they're so perniciously harmful). I never fell into Facebook's maw, though that's cost some inconvenience. I've somewhat extracted myself from Google's, though still only partially: DuckDuckGo for search. It's quite good, and I prefer bang search and actual, direct links rather than Google redirects. Though I still miss ranged date search. OpenStreetMap for maps. ProtonMail for email. It's not everything it could be, the client has some annoying limitations, and neither IMAPS nor POPS are supported. But at least it's not Gmail. There are other options as well. My router blocks Google analytics, and a large set of other adtech hosts. Despite being known as a critic of it, I use G+ heavily. With appropriate pruning and blocking, it's useful.

codeisawesome 9y ago

If there's a series of news articles on Shaq, even more data than just GA can now be collected thanks to no-opt-out AMP

PeanutCurry 9y ago

I mean this without any intention to be rhetorical, but, how common is sending emails to plan an event? For anyone I meet in real life I either talk to them in real life, message them on discord, or call them on the phone. I've got nothing against email, I use it for a lot of things, but it's just too sluggish for event planning in my experience. Occasionally I might use facebook but that's for big consistent events like hosting a yearly get together because I live closest to a fairly big convention that happens in my city.

wutbrodo 9y ago

Yea, I have a lot less faith in the explicitly-unethical Facebook and its leadership than in Google, and that's been the case pretty much since Facebook came on the scene. But how principled the founders are is only one part of the picture, and Google just has the potential to be a lot scarier. People change, companies outlive tight control by individual people, and explicitly-evil actors with armies force companies to do things or compromise their systems (this already happened to some degree a few years ago). I don't really understand why HN goes on and on about how social media is inevitable and you're just a victim of its use. It's pretty easy to drop Facebook and pay a pretty trivial cost. Avoiding Google products, on the other hand, requires a sustained attempt in a dozen different product areas to use usually-inferior products. It's not impossible, but you pay a fairly hefty cost, to the point that most people don't bother. As you mention, they also have a lot finer grained data about what you actually do, as opposed to Facebook mostly knowing what you care to share.