11 ms·
> By firing him they made him a hero to enormous groups, To a small, vocal group. > By doing it in an anti-science, anti-evidence way There were good reasons
by agentultra 9y ago
> By firing him they made him a hero to enormous groups,
To a small, vocal group.
> By doing it in an anti-science, anti-evidence way
There were good reasons for doing it that had nothing to do with science or evidence.
There are women working at Google who do not need to be reminded of the genetic and biologic differences they have from their cishet male counterparts.
If Damon had issues with the policies at Google there were many other channels open to him that didn't involve circulating a manifesto. He brought it upon himself. Once word of that memo leaked there was nothing for Google to do but fire him.
- WalterSear 9y agoHe didn't circulate one. He sent it to a mailing list which purported to be a safe place for open, honest sharing of opinions regarding diversity and hiring.
- ebola1717 9y agoThere are no safe spaces in the real world
- WalterSear 9y agoIf you are informed that you are safe to openly express your opinion, you should have a reasonable expectation that you do.
- ghaff 9y agoAnyone who is willing to bet their job on a controversial posting about company policy to a broad company mailing list staying internal either doesn't mind being fired or is an idiot.
- WalterSear 9y agoNo question about that. But he's being internet lynched for 'circulating a manifesto'.
- serf 9y ago>Anyone who is willing to bet their job on a controversial posting That's part of the problem. Lots of people associate Google with research and discourse akin to a college campus without realizing that, unlike a college campus, they and their free discourse are not protected in any meaningful way. "Let's be open and transparent and have an open and transparent culture... but don't say things that might hurt our shareholders." Google is beginning to remind me a bit too much of the 'Bright & Shinys" from the movie 'Bubble Boy'[0]. Happy go lucky do-gooder cult that holds that image until you cross them. Things get darker after that point. That initial positive image is all that matters. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIYRfNjHSzA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIYRfNjHSzA
- ghaff 9y agoUnfortunately college campuses don't protect free discourse for certain stripes of political opinion very well these days either. I agree with your broader point though. Different companies are more or less tolerant of free-wheeling discussion that may not reflect an official company position. But, at the end of the day, if you cause embarrassment (especially as a non-exec, non-critical employee) at most companies, you're expendable.
- ltrcola 9y agoI don't think they necessarily can, in the interest of fostering a welcoming and safe environment for students to learn. Example: "Let's not be scared of having an open, honest, and frank discussion of how Jews have caused the decline of the country." Do you see how ridiculous that sounds and why a university could not in good faith legitimize the proponents of that theory? Now I'm not saying all issues are as black and white as that, but it's clear to me that there is a line that needs to be drawn somewhere. Any particular issue probably has differing opinions on whether it crosses the lines. But anything that is abusive towards women, minorities, trans people, etc. as people is dangerous ground and I can't argue with not supporting that.
- ghaff 9y agoBy and large, I do think that college students do need to be able to deal with viewpoints that hurt or offend them. That doesn't include signs on their dorm doors or people getting in their faces but it does include speakers who they may not like.
- peoplewindow 9y agoGoogle always used to make a big song and dance about how scientific and data driven it is. They even wrote about how data driven their hiring processes and HR operations are. This article from 2013 is an example http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2013/01/google_people_operations_the_secrets_of_the_world_s_most_scientific_human.html http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2013/01/... “What we try to do is bring the same level of rigor to people decisions that we do to engineering decisions. Our mission is to have all people decisions be informed by data.” Damore's memo may look idiotic to people who work in "normal" workplaces, but it is consistent with Google's previous rhetoric on what sort of company it wants to be: namely, one that isn't normal.
- ocdtrekkie 9y agoI would argue that if a 'small, vocal group' likely had a significant hand in electing Donald Trump, we should stop trying to minimize it by suggesting it is 'small'. Either because it's larger than you think, or because it has influence that outscales it's membership severalfold.
- endorphone 9y agoThere are women working at Google who do not need to be reminded of the genetic and biologic differences they have from their cishet male counterparts. I'm a white male. I know that the average Asian has a higher IQ than the average white man. This means positively nothing when comparing me with a given Asian, however. That is the root of this discussion that so many so profoundly miss. The average Google male is not the average male. The average Google female is not the average female. He was not saying that women who work at Google are at a biological disadvantage, in any way, and that is a perverse misreading. He was saying that on the whole there's a biological reason when you roll the dice enough that more males are suitable for that work. In the scientific community this is utterly indisputable, in the same way that there are far more exceptional males (and autistic males), just as there are far more mentally handicapped males. That doesn't preclude handicapped or exceptional females, it's just less common.
- tomp 9y ago> I know that the average Asian has a higher IQ than the average white man. How can you be sure that it's the average Asia, as opposed to the average Asian in the US? IMO a better example would be to use Ashkenazi Jews... or are they too white to count?
- unityByFreedom 9y agoYeah, he slipped in a huge assumption there as if it's established fact. Of course Asians in the US are smart. There is a high bar for foreigners entering the US. This is the genius behind "Give me your tired, your poor". We actually end up taking the hard working, wealthy ones who've gotten into college by passing tests in their second language at the same age as we go to school.
- thegayngler 9y agoThere was an article awhile back in the NYT stating that in many cases asians people can be found cheating on those tests or lying about their educational background. Lets face it. They have resources to both cheat and get tutoring on the ways to pass an exam. Lets see how everyone does cold turkey when all of the outside factors like money and resources other than race and gender are held constant. What are the results of a study like that? That would be a more interesting test than saying X or Y is genetically more suited to this field. Most if not all of that line of reasoning is based on 1000 year old social constructs...and the mountains of "research" that was later made up to give it credibility when people started to question these social constructs.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- mathattack 9y agoUnfortunately I don't think it's that small. It's similar to saying "The Trump base is a small vocal group" - perhaps it's really larger than we care to admit?
- jshevek 9y agoYes. Of course we can't reasonably assess how large these groups are, when we are all - liberals and conservatives alike - being told not to express our opinions by leaders in universities, media, and tech companies. It's like Sundar declaring that most employees supported him - after he fired someone for questioning management. Did he really expect honest answers?
- mc32 9y agoOne could say the people wanting the ex a employee fired were also a small vocal group. I really doubt more than 10% of Googlers felt personally threatened affronted by someone having a different view on advancing women in tech.
- ralfd 9y ago> cishet Was that necessary? A) The women working at Google are predominantly also cishet and B) gay guys can be misogynistic too (sometimes even more, as they dont need women in any way).