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Is there a name for this rhetorical form? If X was a true Y, they would do what I say all Ys should do.

miranda_rights 9y ago
Yeah, the "No True Scotsman" fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
- danso 9y ago
  > No true Scotsman is a kind of informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect a universal generalization from counterexamples by changing the definition in an ad hoc fashion to exclude the counterexample. I thought the "No True Scotsman" fallacy was something more like this: Alice: "No programmer indents with tabs instead of spaces" Bob: "But Guido Van Rossum liked using tabs [0]" Alice: "No real programmer indents with tabs" [0] http://web.archive.org/web/20160513172920/http://legacy.python.org/search/hypermail/python-1994q2/0205.html http://web.archive.org/web/20160513172920/http://legacy.pyth...
  - parrellel 9y ago
    That's what he said, your example just implicitly excludes Python Language devs.
    - danso 9y ago
      No, not really. What's the universal generalization or group here, of which Damore is a counter-example? "Googlers who have written memos like Damore's and were then fired"? Damore's situation is a specific one, and he made specific claims about the importance of freedom of expression at Google: A. Damore spoke out about how Googlers shouldn't feel unsafe to express themselves. B. People at Google are reportedly intimidated about expressing themselves. C. We would expect Damore to be unhappy that Googlers are feeling unsafe to express themselves. That's not a logical fallacy. Doesn't mean that idleword's rhetorical argument can't be criticized for being overbearing. Or for being wrong in its premises, e.g. Damore never explicitly said freedom of expression at Google was important, he alleged that Google management's policies stifle ideological viewpoints. That doesn't mean Damore has an opinion about Google employees being intimidated by the public.
      - stagbeetle 9y ago
        I see what you're saying, but it's an edge case for the No True Scotsman, with a mix of "moving the goal posts," i.e what real sincerity is like. >No, not really. What's the universal generalization or group here, of which Damore is a counter-example? "Sincere people." There's also tinges of "wishful thinking."
        danso 9y ago
        Don't get me wrong, the rhetorical trick that idlewords is implied to use is just as annoying. Like, "If pro-life people truly cared about human and babies lives, why don't they speak up for single-payer healthcare?" It involves irrational assumptions and/or over-simplification of issues. And its implications are itself a logical fallacy: If people who support A also support B, and people who support C support B, then people who believe in A but not C are hypocrites But No True Scotsman fallacies can occur without those pre-requisites and it's a common enough fallacy that it deserves its own term, so that it's easier to identify and denounce its use. Also, I really want to know if there is a specific phrase/category that describes what idlewords is accused of, for the same reasons of easier identification and denunciation :)
        miranda_rights 9y ago
        You're right, and I was wrong before - the example of "If X was a true Y, they would do what I say all Ys should do" seems like it might be related to No True Scotsman but it's definitely different. It seems like the fallacy would be in the speaker's definition of "a true Y", so maybe it's using a "Persuasive definition"[0]? I'm not certain, but I'm also curious if there's a better term! [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasive_definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasive_definition
- parenthephobia 9y ago
  It's only a fallacy if it isn't true. Is it not true that a supporter of freedom of speech would support other people's freedom to disagree with him without being doxxed by his supporters? It seems to me that it is true, at least if the supporter's conception of freedom of speech includes freedom from harassment after speaking, which Damore certainly appears to be believe to be true. Having said that, although I think it would be commendable for him to publically rebuke doxxers, it is fallacious to argue that his support for freedom of speech carries with it an obligation to do so.
  - throwaway12124 9y ago
    Actually, rhetorical forms are fallacies if they are not universally true. That they may be true in particular instances is not important.
    - IshKebab 9y ago
      That's not what a fallacy is.

Yeah, the "No True Scotsman" fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

danso 9y ago
> No true Scotsman is a kind of informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect a universal generalization from counterexamples by changing the definition in an ad hoc fashion to exclude the counterexample. I thought the "No True Scotsman" fallacy was something more like this: Alice: "No programmer indents with tabs instead of spaces" Bob: "But Guido Van Rossum liked using tabs [0]" Alice: "No real programmer indents with tabs" [0] http://web.archive.org/web/20160513172920/http://legacy.python.org/search/hypermail/python-1994q2/0205.html http://web.archive.org/web/20160513172920/http://legacy.pyth...
- parrellel 9y ago
  That's what he said, your example just implicitly excludes Python Language devs.
  - danso 9y ago
    No, not really. What's the universal generalization or group here, of which Damore is a counter-example? "Googlers who have written memos like Damore's and were then fired"? Damore's situation is a specific one, and he made specific claims about the importance of freedom of expression at Google: A. Damore spoke out about how Googlers shouldn't feel unsafe to express themselves. B. People at Google are reportedly intimidated about expressing themselves. C. We would expect Damore to be unhappy that Googlers are feeling unsafe to express themselves. That's not a logical fallacy. Doesn't mean that idleword's rhetorical argument can't be criticized for being overbearing. Or for being wrong in its premises, e.g. Damore never explicitly said freedom of expression at Google was important, he alleged that Google management's policies stifle ideological viewpoints. That doesn't mean Damore has an opinion about Google employees being intimidated by the public.
    - stagbeetle 9y ago
      I see what you're saying, but it's an edge case for the No True Scotsman, with a mix of "moving the goal posts," i.e what real sincerity is like. >No, not really. What's the universal generalization or group here, of which Damore is a counter-example? "Sincere people." There's also tinges of "wishful thinking."
      - danso 9y ago
        Don't get me wrong, the rhetorical trick that idlewords is implied to use is just as annoying. Like, "If pro-life people truly cared about human and babies lives, why don't they speak up for single-payer healthcare?" It involves irrational assumptions and/or over-simplification of issues. And its implications are itself a logical fallacy: If people who support A also support B, and people who support C support B, then people who believe in A but not C are hypocrites But No True Scotsman fallacies can occur without those pre-requisites and it's a common enough fallacy that it deserves its own term, so that it's easier to identify and denounce its use. Also, I really want to know if there is a specific phrase/category that describes what idlewords is accused of, for the same reasons of easier identification and denunciation :)
        miranda_rights 9y ago
        You're right, and I was wrong before - the example of "If X was a true Y, they would do what I say all Ys should do" seems like it might be related to No True Scotsman but it's definitely different. It seems like the fallacy would be in the speaker's definition of "a true Y", so maybe it's using a "Persuasive definition"[0]? I'm not certain, but I'm also curious if there's a better term! [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasive_definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasive_definition
parenthephobia 9y ago
It's only a fallacy if it isn't true. Is it not true that a supporter of freedom of speech would support other people's freedom to disagree with him without being doxxed by his supporters? It seems to me that it is true, at least if the supporter's conception of freedom of speech includes freedom from harassment after speaking, which Damore certainly appears to be believe to be true. Having said that, although I think it would be commendable for him to publically rebuke doxxers, it is fallacious to argue that his support for freedom of speech carries with it an obligation to do so.
- throwaway12124 9y ago
  Actually, rhetorical forms are fallacies if they are not universally true. That they may be true in particular instances is not important.
  - IshKebab 9y ago
    That's not what a fallacy is.