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US diplomats mysteriously go deaf, Cuba suspected of using sonic weapons
- libria 9y agoSomething similar happened to the US Embassy in Moscow. The Soviets smuggled a tiny, unpowered antenna inside and were able to eavesdrop on conversations by bathing the embassy in microwave radiation. During this period, some of the staff reported feeling nausea, some were found to have notably elevated white blood cell counts, and Ambassodors Stoessel, Thompson and Bohlen later died of cancer.
- godelmachine 9y agoAre you referring to The Great Seal Bug? CF. → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device)
- ceejayoz 9y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device)
- mercer 9y agoIf you find that interesting, here's a fascinating article about the role the Dutch played in the whole thing: https://thecorrespondent.com/3789/operation-easy-chair-or-how-a-little-company-in-holland-helped-the-cia-bug-the-russians https://thecorrespondent.com/3789/operation-easy-chair-or-ho...
- nyolfen 9y agofor a modern take on this, check out this NSA tool that uses RF to illuminate a VGA monitor cable bug: https://leaksource.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/nsa-ant-ragemaster.jpg https://leaksource.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/nsa-ant-ragem...
- mercer 9y agoThat's really cool! Thanks for the link.
- frikk 9y agoWhat would the transmit range on something like that be?
- blueintegral 9y agoThere's no evidence that nonionizing radiation like microwaves can cause cancer. I think that was probably more likely due to the fact that everyone back then smoked about 4 packs a day.
- jostmey 9y agoAt safe levels, sure. But at ultra-extreme levels it might. But you're right, smoking probably killed them
- mritun 9y agoNon-ionizing radiation does kill at ultra-high level, but not through cancer, just plain old burning. That's exactly what your microwave over does.
- gh02t 9y agoPlus that bug was a backscatter radio. It didn't actually emit radio waves on its own, it just resonated in response to a carrier wave. The Soviets had to illuminate it with a 330 MHz radio signal from outside, but that's not ionizing.
- flavio81 9y agoIf you look at the design of said device (invented by Lev Sergeivich Termen aka Leo Theremin), you'll suspect that it will require a pretty powerful microwave beam to work.
- gh02t 9y ago[Probably] not enough to cause any harm. RF isn't dangerous until it is powerful enough to cause local heating and obviously this wasn't that powerful. I can't really find much info on how much power Theremin's bug took, but modern backscatter radios usually operate at very low power, at the level of ambient RF from normal radio etc but can transmit 10 km or more. Based on other designs I've seen I suspect it wouldn't actually take much, though that is just an educated guess.
- enoch_r 9y agoI had to look this up because it was so crazy and interesting - but sadly (er, well, you know what I mean), the link between microwave radiation and cancer is questionable both biologically and historically. The historical evidence (mortality/morbidity of employees at the Moscow Embassy vs. other Eastern European embassies, or comparisons based on how long employees spent in Moscow, or comparisons based on estimated exposure to the microwave radiation) suggests no adverse affects from radiation.[1] And in general the idea that microwave radiation (emitted by cell phones/towers, wifi, etc.) causes cancer is not supported by the evidence. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3509929/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3509929/
- hengheng 9y agoI would assume it's been standard practice since then to do regular scans for electromagnetic interference?
- hwillis 9y agoRadiation causes a drop in white blood cell counts, not a rise. Nausea only occurs at extremely high doses. Microwaves cause none of those symptoms.
- exergy 9y agoWow. This sounds horrifying. I have mild tinnitus that causes me endless grief (a lot of it mental: "I'll never be able to enjoy my music properly", but also trouble sleeping.) This is just many levels worse. And bizzare! What possible gain could you derive from harming some poor sods who are only there to do a job?
- jonnathanson 9y agoThey could be testing out a weapon, perhaps not for military applications per se, but for spycraft and special operations. Sure would be convenient to storm a guarded compound if all the guards were suddenly deaf. Similarly, it would be nice to use something like this as a perimeter fence of sorts. Slow exposure over time would eventually deafen the spies you suspect are surveilling your place. The theory that the Russians were behind this, and not necessarily the Cubans, seems plausible if indeed this was a weapons test. Russia conducts a lot more SpecOps missions around the globe than Cuba does.
- Danihan 9y agoYeah but you generally wouldn't test something like this on high-level diplomats, right? You'd test it where there would be no press if it worked.
- Raphmedia 9y agoYou might want to try some of those : https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/neuromodulationTonesGenerator.php https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/neuromodulationTonesGenera... https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/whiteBurstsNoiseGenerator.php https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/whiteBurstsNoiseGenerator.... https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/impulseNoiseGenerator.php https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/impulseNoiseGenerator.php https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/whiteNoiseGenerator.php https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/whiteNoiseGenerator.php I also find that playing a tone that is similar to my tinnitus for a while and then turning it off helps my brain to ignore the tinnitus. I use http://onlinetonegenerator.com/ http://onlinetonegenerator.com/ and set it around 4020 Hertz
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- Tepix 9y agoI'm wondering if very low or very high frequencies are used. Either way you could probably build a detector that emits an audible alarm once such frequencies are detected at high intensities. Are whales and fish suffering similarly due to extreme noise in the oceans?
- londons_explore 9y agoVery low frequencies would still be detectable by humans. You'd get complaints of "my building is shaking" before any hearing loss.
- Sleeep 9y agoSome evidence suggests sonar may have negative effects on marine mammals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar
- Torai 9y agoSome of the comments: > Syphilis, if not treated in time, can cause damage to hearing. That is the most plausible explanation. > Come on, isn't high tech USA capable of detecting high frequency sound? And what sense would make for Cuba to invent something like that, and then use it to annoy its biggest enemy so far?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- SilasX 9y agoThose are really good points. To borrow from the saying, I'd sooner believe that a) diplomats to a poor country engaged in risky off-books behavior,[1] than that b) the same poor country deployed bleeding-edge sonic weapons against foreign VIPs during a sensitive, once-in-a-lifetime reopening of relations. [1] Edit: okay, never mind; syphillis takes way too long for that to happen. Still, b) is very unlikely and needs a lot more evidence before we believe it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14980882 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14980882
- true_religion 9y agoBleeding edge? This is just a loud speaker system.
- SilasX 9y agoRemember, it's a system that they can't trivially detect with audio equipment that shows that "yep, loud sound with high frequency in that room".
- londons_explore 9y agoThere are lots of devices which emit sounds just outside the human hearing frequency range. For example, most mobile phone power supplies emit a lot of noise around 25kHz (and a few which are faulty drop down below 18kHz and become audible to young people). I wonder what hearing issues all these devices together might cause?
- sethammons 9y agoWhen my phone is full and still on the charger, the whine is intolerable. Three chargers so far have done this. Not sure if it is the same thing. I consider my hearing sub par and I'm in my mid thirties.
- nf05papsjfVbc 9y ago"Coil whine": Look for chargers which don't have this problem. I've heard that Anker has chargers without this problem though I have not used them and can not, therefore, personally vouch for them.
- throwanem 9y agoI've never had this trouble with Apple chargers. I've also heard good reports of Anker products, but never tried them myself. In extremis, you can open up a charger and pot the coils yourself with hot glue, epoxy, or some other nonconductive polymer. Just be sure to disconnect it from power first, lest you inadvertently get your own batteries charged.
- akovaski 9y agoWow, I've never noticed before that my phone charger makes noise when my phone is fully charged, huh. (Thankfully I can only hear it if my ear is within 1 foot of the charger.)
- londons_explore 9y agoI wonder if this was deliberate? It could be some kind of spy device, for example an ultrasonic mapping device, inadvertently caused hearing loss.
- duxup 9y agoI am not in the industry, but just off hand testing a crazy spy device on embassy staff of another country, on your home turf, in a way they would notice it would seem to sort of let the cat out of the bag. Maybe they got what they wanted but it seems like it would be strange to test it like this, particularly when the folks using it might be easily identified (assuming it is Cuba).
- londons_explore 9y ago> testing a crazy spy device I can imagine they had probably tested it well beforehand, just never done extended tests to discover that it caused hearing loss.
- theGimp 9y agoThe Cuban regime is despicable, but I don't see what they have to gain by targeting diplomats -- particularly US diplomats. I'm inclined to believe the theory that the damage is inadvertent.
- devrandomguy 9y agoPerhaps it was not government sponsored, but rather an attack by one or more local extremists, of some sort.
- riskable 9y agoGuerrilla radio? Not rebels, decibels.
- andrewpi 9y agoOften diplomats are spies that operate in a country under diplomatic cover; perhaps Cuba wanted to frustrate suspected spying?
- mythrwy 9y agoPerhaps a third party not wanting to see better US/Cuba relations?
- zapperdapper 9y agoInteresting one. I remember I went to the local One Stop with my son - he was about 15 at the time. He couldn't bear standing outside - he said the noise was unbearable. I said "what noise"? Apparently they used some kind of sonic device that emits sound that can only be heard by teenagers, and it was incredibly effective - they wouldn't hang around outside the shop more than a moment longer than necessary. I do wonder whether it caused any damage though? One Stop was later bought by Tesco and they got rid of it.
- Chardok 9y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mosquito https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mosquito Teens also have used this frequency as a ringtone in class as most teachers couldn't hear it.
- kevinmchugh 9y agoThe cell phone ringtone didn't make sense to me when people started using it. Sure, the teachers can't hear it, but they can see an entire class wince simultaneously. Plus, there's a lot of teachers in their 20s who can hear it just fine.
- JosephRedfern 9y agoThe whole class may have winced, but I guess it'd be harder for the teacher to pinpoint where the sound came from.
- WalterSear 9y agoThere's no reason to wince - it's just a sound. The wincing is caused by the volume.
- kevinmchugh 9y agoPerhaps it was a flinch? I find the tones on this site I found[0] highly unpleasant to listen to at any volume. The ringtones I was hearing were no louder than any other, but I know I recoiled on hearing them. [0] https://www.ultrasonic-ringtones.com/ https://www.ultrasonic-ringtones.com/. Unsurprisingly, I can't hear above 17k anymore. I'm not terribly upset.
- yardie 9y agoThis sounds less like sonic weapons and more like faulty equipment nearby. US diplomats have been gone from Cuba for decades are now only coming back within the last year.
- purple-again 9y agoA bunch of married men contract STD that goes untreated for obvious reasons sounds a lot more plausible then Russia testing out its new weapon on our diplomats. Anyone know if any of the diplomats were female?
- nylonstrung 9y agoWhat STDs make you deaf without any other issues? Only severe late stage syphilis could do that from my understanding
- matt4077 9y agoSyphilis only causes hearing loss in its tertiary stage, if at all. It takes years or decades to get to that stage, and it's impossible to get that far without experiencing other, serious symptoms first. So, no: the chances of this being Syphilis is 0%.
- xdrone2 9y agoSyphilis or oxycontin use?
- freehunter 9y agoYou think a diplomat wouldn't be able to get medical treatment in a discreet manner?
- Chardok 9y ago"US investigators have concluded that the country's diplomats were being hit with an advanced device that can send out sound that is inaudible but can cause huge damage to the ears of a person around them, which appears to have been left either inside or near the diplomats' houses" So is this an actual device they found or is it something they theorized existed? Does this technology exist now? If so, that is unsettling!
- Raphmedia 9y agoSounds that you can't hear can hurt your ears. There is nothing new there and creating such a device would be pretty easy.
- Chardok 9y agoI did not know that! It looks like anything greater than 120dB could be entirely inaudible and can lead to hearing loss. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasound#Safety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasound#Safety
- jsjohnst 9y agoYou are misquoting the article linked, greater than 120db is definitely audible depending on the frequency and the listener. Even at the frequencies they mention (25k being the highest), those are still audible to many humans (myself included).
- AstralStorm 9y agoEven when not audible this high air pressure would be painful.
- gmarx 9y agoI wouldn't be 100% certain but yes, it seems unlikely that sound could damage the part of the ear that is stimulated by the given frequency without you hearing it. It's kind of a weird story. A bunch of people lose their hearing and the first and only thought is mystery weapon? There are a lot of things, including many common medications and infections that can cause hearing loss. I wonder if they know more or less than reported
- _Codemonkeyism 9y agoCui bono? The US? Cuba? Russia?
- ChuckMcM 9y agoCurious, I'll be interested to hear what the root cause is if they publish that information. I played around with 'ultrasonic projection' for a bit, which involved two ultrasonic emitters that were emitting the same carrier wave, then the phase of one gets modulated by an audio signal. At the point where the two beams can be heard at the same time, you get the classic mixing effect where the interference between the two beams is the audible input signal. That "projected" the sound (or transmitted depending on your definition) to a remote location without the intervening folks hearing it. Of course to make it work you need pretty strong carriers and that has the effect of deafening you even if you can't hear it. Thinking about that experiment though I wonder if you shot a high power beam at a window if you could use the resonance to pull off audio without having a tell tale laser bouncing off of the window. (mix the reflected ultrasonic signal with the echo to extract any modulation from the window). And all of that has me wondering if it would be useful to create an inaudible sound detector / meter to let you know there was a sound around you that you couldn't hear.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- kalleboo 9y ago> You could quite easily put together such a device yourself. Just put out a 130dB noise for someone in a frequency they can't hear. Or Real Soon Now™ you'll just be able to buy a uBeam
- dang 9y agoPlease don't post snarky comments about flamewar topics. We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14980809 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14980809 and marked it off-topic.
- StringyBob 9y agoPerhaps an overly powerful carrier wave for a passive acoustic bug e.g. a non-RF version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device) ?
- binarymax 9y agoOne thing not specified in the article (unless I missed something)...is this permanent hearing loss, or temporary?
- jayess 9y agoThere's more to this story. Hearing loss is one issue, but Cuban intelligence will do random things to US diplomats just to mess with them. From what I understand, families of diplomats have been sent back to the US because of the problems. One story I've heard from a reliable source is that they'll break in to your home while you're out and shave your cat, just to remind you they're watching, among a myriad of other things.
- slezyr 9y agoHm. Sounds better than russians, who defecated in living room. > Breaking in to diplomats’ residences and leaving “calling cards” such as rearranging the furniture or leaving lights on. Nothing is taken, leaving no doubt that it was not a robbery. In one case, the US defense attache’s pet dog was killed; in another, an intruder defecated on a diplomat’s living room carpet https://qz.com/914634/the-tactics-russian-intelligence-uses-to-harass-foreign-diplomats-according-to-estonia/ https://qz.com/914634/the-tactics-russian-intelligence-uses-...
- mi100hael 9y agoKilling a man's dog should be a capital offense.
- JBlue42 9y agoCops in the US kill dogs every day. https://puppycidedb.com/ https://puppycidedb.com/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/07/what-dog-shootings-reveal-about-american-policing/533319/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/07/what-do...
- Nomentatus 9y agoI presume this is very low-frequency sonar that could therefore penetrate walls. They wanted to know whether the diplomats were at home, so they could enter and explore, plant bugs, etc at will. Including planting very small bugs in clothes that would be worn to work, probably.
- riskable 9y agoThere are lots of things that can cause hearing loss but I think the most illogical reason would be some sort of high-tech spying device or weapon. That's just silly. A more reasonable explanation would be tropical diseases: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4222184/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4222184/ My money's on West Nile Virus (WNV) because it can be completely asymptomatic until you suffer hearing loss. Since WNV has been detected in Cuba (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16707068 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16707068) it seems plausible. Then plain old opiate/heroin usage: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21586255 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21586255 ...but it's not like we have an opioid epidemic or anything!
- alexandercrohde 9y agoWhat the hell. What possible good for Cuba could this do? (Don't answer that, none, it's time to accept the post-war era is here and you should get your power-game urges out in a video game) However, I think you could make something to pinpoint high-pitch sounds relatively easily (< $200) and get a little more conclusive evidence.
- flavio81 9y agoThree words: MKULTRA electronic warfare. This program tested many electronic devices to annoy target subjects. The russian also had their own, google the "LIDA Machine" (also patented in the US).