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I found this disturbing: "Chromium-based browsers are being “infested” by Instart Logic tech which works around blockers and worst, around browser privacy sett

by yborg 9y ago

I found this disturbing: "Chromium-based browsers are being “infested” by Instart Logic tech which works around blockers and worst, around browser privacy settings (they may start “infecting” Firefox eventually, but that is not happening now)." From his linked post: "Instart Logic will detect when the developer console opens, and cleanup everything then to hide what it does" Is this implemented via a CDN-delivered script? Why would Chromium-based browsers be more susceptible?

MichaelGG 9y ago
And he has a list of sites that use WebRTC to get around blocking. Didn't Firefox or someone say they'd reconsider auto-enabling WebRTC if this practise became widespread?
forapurpose 9y ago
Also: > The purpose of Instart Logic technology is to disguise 3rd-party requests as 1st-party requests, thus bypassing content blockers, and even the ability of browsers to block 3rd-party cookies (because they are stored as 1st-party cookies): https://github.com/gorhill/uBO-Extra/wiki/Sites-on-which-uBO-Extra-is-useful#instart-logic https://github.com/gorhill/uBO-Extra/wiki/Sites-on-which-uBO...
- albertgoeswoof 9y ago
  How exactly does this work? The link mentions that it detects when Dev tools are opened and changes something?
  - milcron 9y ago
    Here are a few suggestions https://stackoverflow.com/questions/7798748/find-out-whether-chrome-console-is-open https://stackoverflow.com/questions/7798748/find-out-whether...
    - hathawsh 9y ago
      Wow, the 'id' getter strategy is devious and effective on Chrome. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/7798748/find-out-whether-chrome-console-is-open/30638226#30638226 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/7798748/find-out-whether...
  - tyingq 9y ago
    >How exactly does this work? Which part? The making 3rd party cookies into 1st party cookies is likely just a caching proxy. They mention the speed benefits here, and not the cloaking benefit, but.. https://www.instartlogic.com/solutions/appspeed/runtime-optimizations/javascript-interception https://www.instartlogic.com/solutions/appspeed/runtime-opti...
ehaughee 9y ago
This actually made me try switching to Firefox again. There's some minor things missing, but for the most part all the features I want are there.
- abandonliberty 9y ago
  Firefox is maybe 80% of the way there. Just like in the IE Anitrust days, firefox suffers from sites that do not design with it in mind. Still better than Google Creep. Change to a search engine that protects privacy too.
  - timlyo 9y ago
    Can you recommend a search engine? I'm trying DuckDuckGo, but it's just not as good.
    - retox 9y ago
      I always hit DDG first then if the results aren't great just append the Google bang (!g) in the DDG search field to get an unbubbled goog search. The DDG bang system is one of its best features in my mind. https://duckduckgo.com/bang https://duckduckgo.com/bang
      - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
        How often do you end up at Google though; a few years back I tried DDG for a couple of months but ended up basically always doing !g and so went back to Google. Might be time for another go?
        retox 9y ago
        It depends on what I'm searching for. If its an error code or something a bit esoteric around tech then google usually has better results, but for everyday topics the results are pretty decent, and they feel like they have improved over the years. I probably do less searching than I used to, but the bang system really helps me search other sites much more effectively. The more common bangs I use are !w for wikipedia, !so for stackoverflow, !imdb, !gh, !tpb, !bm for bing maps, !bi bing images.
eslaught 9y ago
> Why would Chromium-based browsers be more susceptible? From the linked discussion: "they may start “infecting” Firefox eventually, but that is not happening now" So it sound like the developers of Instant Logic are simply choosing to target the most popular browser at the moment.
i2shar 9y ago
It is indeed disturbing. Why should a web page be able to detect if dev tools has been opened? Isn't this a browser security issue?
- djsumdog 9y ago
  It's pretty insane how much your browser knows about you: http://webkay.robinlinus.com/ http://webkay.robinlinus.com/ There's another one I can't find, but it writes out things like "user moved mouse to x,y. User has been idle for 10 seconds, page lost focus, page gained focus" .. kinda creepy how much is available to the Javascript engine.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - inopinatus 9y ago
    This is pretty normal for a UI programming framework. The creepy thing for me is when that stuff is reported back to the origin over a websocket.
  - settyness 9y ago
    You must be talking about clickclickclick.click And thanks for the new novelty website bookmark :D
    - transposed 9y ago
      http://imgur.com/6ep0YnW http://imgur.com/6ep0YnW
    - unkown-unknowns 9y ago
      https://clickclickclick.click https://clickclickclick.click Clickable link
      - teddyh 9y ago
        Reminds me of “Achievement Unlocked”: http://armorgames.com/play/2893/achievement-unlocked http://armorgames.com/play/2893/achievement-unlocked
math0ne 9y ago
I still don't actually understand what "Instart Logic" is, can anyone explain it?
- milcron 9y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instart_Logic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instart_Logic
  - greggman 9y ago
    That doesn't seem related to the topic unless I'm missing it. Also it has nothing to do with browsers or Chrome vs Firefox
    - milcron 9y ago
      It's referenced in the OP: Chromium-based browsers are being “infested” by Instart Logic tech which works around blockers and worst, around browser privacy settings (they may start “infecting” Firefox eventually, but that is not happening now). And there is a link to further elaboration: https://github.com/gorhill/uBO-Extra/wiki/Sites-on-which-uBO-Extra-is-useful#instart-logic https://github.com/gorhill/uBO-Extra/wiki/Sites-on-which-uBO...
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - gpvos 9y ago
        Okay, so they have cookies on a subdomain of the main site's domain. But that in itself is not a problem, since it does not enable them to track me across websites. So I don't have a problem with that, unless they use other tricks. Are they using browser profiling or something similar to correlate across websites?
    - philipkglass 9y ago
      http://go.instartlogic.com/AppShield-Ad-Integrity-Data-Sheet.html http://go.instartlogic.com/AppShield-Ad-Integrity-Data-Sheet... "Web publishers make simple DNS changes to flow the network domains that carry their HTML through the Instart Logic system. This allows our system to inject a small piece of JavaScript that can detect the presence of ad blockers. When an ad blocker is detected, the JavaScript-based virtualization layer Nanovisor, together with our intelligent cloud-based, machine learning platform, encrypts and delivers all the elements of the page using the customer’s existing delivery services. As a result, each resource on the page, and any signals and actions such as measurement beacons or user clicks, will have its URL encrypted and obscured. This renders ad blockers ineffective, as they can no longer search for patterns which would indicate a resource is related to advertising. The result is simply the experience that the web publisher intended on delivering to the end user with no changes to the ad delivery or measurement systems; end users have no need to be aware the technology is even being used."
wfunction 9y ago
Any more reading on the Instart Logic tech detecting dev tools and hiding itself? I can't find much online.
- TacoScott 9y ago
  Typically it seems to poll window height/width vars in js. https://github.com/sindresorhus/devtools-detect https://github.com/sindresorhus/devtools-detect Another variant: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/7798748/find-out-whether-chrome-console-is-open/30638226#30638226 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/7798748/find-out-whether...
  - wfunction 9y ago
    Sorry I meant I was looking for more like documentation on the product rather than implementation. Thanks though.
Aissen 9y ago
I'm pretty sure there might be a bug for this in the Chromium bug tracker that is hidden from the common folk, just like they hide their bug where websites can detect if you're in private mode(!): https://github.com/brave/browser-laptop/issues/9082#issuecomment-304382860 https://github.com/brave/browser-laptop/issues/9082#issuecom...
ams6110 9y ago
> Instart Logic tech which works around blockers Hadn't heard about this, but this is why I still keep long blacklist in my /etc/hosts file even though I use uBlock Origin also. Out of habit I get mine from http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.htm http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.htm. Not sure it's the best one, but I started using it years ago when I was still using Windows and have just stuck with it.

by yborg 9y ago

MichaelGG 9y ago

And he has a list of sites that use WebRTC to get around blocking. Didn't Firefox or someone say they'd reconsider auto-enabling WebRTC if this practise became widespread?

forapurpose 9y ago

Also: > The purpose of Instart Logic technology is to disguise 3rd-party requests as 1st-party requests, thus bypassing content blockers, and even the ability of browsers to block 3rd-party cookies (because they are stored as 1st-party cookies): https://github.com/gorhill/uBO-Extra/wiki/Sites-on-which-uBO-Extra-is-useful#instart-logic https://github.com/gorhill/uBO-Extra/wiki/Sites-on-which-uBO...

albertgoeswoof 9y ago
How exactly does this work? The link mentions that it detects when Dev tools are opened and changes something?
- milcron 9y ago
  Here are a few suggestions https://stackoverflow.com/questions/7798748/find-out-whether-chrome-console-is-open https://stackoverflow.com/questions/7798748/find-out-whether...
  - hathawsh 9y ago
    Wow, the 'id' getter strategy is devious and effective on Chrome. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/7798748/find-out-whether-chrome-console-is-open/30638226#30638226 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/7798748/find-out-whether...
- tyingq 9y ago
  >How exactly does this work? Which part? The making 3rd party cookies into 1st party cookies is likely just a caching proxy. They mention the speed benefits here, and not the cloaking benefit, but.. https://www.instartlogic.com/solutions/appspeed/runtime-optimizations/javascript-interception https://www.instartlogic.com/solutions/appspeed/runtime-opti...

ehaughee 9y ago

This actually made me try switching to Firefox again. There's some minor things missing, but for the most part all the features I want are there.

abandonliberty 9y ago
Firefox is maybe 80% of the way there. Just like in the IE Anitrust days, firefox suffers from sites that do not design with it in mind. Still better than Google Creep. Change to a search engine that protects privacy too.
- timlyo 9y ago
  Can you recommend a search engine? I'm trying DuckDuckGo, but it's just not as good.
  - retox 9y ago
    I always hit DDG first then if the results aren't great just append the Google bang (!g) in the DDG search field to get an unbubbled goog search. The DDG bang system is one of its best features in my mind. https://duckduckgo.com/bang https://duckduckgo.com/bang
    - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
      How often do you end up at Google though; a few years back I tried DDG for a couple of months but ended up basically always doing !g and so went back to Google. Might be time for another go?
      - retox 9y ago
        It depends on what I'm searching for. If its an error code or something a bit esoteric around tech then google usually has better results, but for everyday topics the results are pretty decent, and they feel like they have improved over the years. I probably do less searching than I used to, but the bang system really helps me search other sites much more effectively. The more common bangs I use are !w for wikipedia, !so for stackoverflow, !imdb, !gh, !tpb, !bm for bing maps, !bi bing images.

eslaught 9y ago

> Why would Chromium-based browsers be more susceptible? From the linked discussion: "they may start “infecting” Firefox eventually, but that is not happening now" So it sound like the developers of Instant Logic are simply choosing to target the most popular browser at the moment.

i2shar 9y ago

It is indeed disturbing. Why should a web page be able to detect if dev tools has been opened? Isn't this a browser security issue?

djsumdog 9y ago
It's pretty insane how much your browser knows about you: http://webkay.robinlinus.com/ http://webkay.robinlinus.com/ There's another one I can't find, but it writes out things like "user moved mouse to x,y. User has been idle for 10 seconds, page lost focus, page gained focus" .. kinda creepy how much is available to the Javascript engine.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- inopinatus 9y ago
  This is pretty normal for a UI programming framework. The creepy thing for me is when that stuff is reported back to the origin over a websocket.
- settyness 9y ago
  You must be talking about clickclickclick.click And thanks for the new novelty website bookmark :D
  - transposed 9y ago
    http://imgur.com/6ep0YnW http://imgur.com/6ep0YnW
  - unkown-unknowns 9y ago
    https://clickclickclick.click https://clickclickclick.click Clickable link
    - teddyh 9y ago
      Reminds me of “Achievement Unlocked”: http://armorgames.com/play/2893/achievement-unlocked http://armorgames.com/play/2893/achievement-unlocked

math0ne 9y ago

I still don't actually understand what "Instart Logic" is, can anyone explain it?

milcron 9y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instart_Logic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instart_Logic
- greggman 9y ago
  That doesn't seem related to the topic unless I'm missing it. Also it has nothing to do with browsers or Chrome vs Firefox
  - milcron 9y ago
    It's referenced in the OP: Chromium-based browsers are being “infested” by Instart Logic tech which works around blockers and worst, around browser privacy settings (they may start “infecting” Firefox eventually, but that is not happening now). And there is a link to further elaboration: https://github.com/gorhill/uBO-Extra/wiki/Sites-on-which-uBO-Extra-is-useful#instart-logic https://github.com/gorhill/uBO-Extra/wiki/Sites-on-which-uBO...
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - gpvos 9y ago
      Okay, so they have cookies on a subdomain of the main site's domain. But that in itself is not a problem, since it does not enable them to track me across websites. So I don't have a problem with that, unless they use other tricks. Are they using browser profiling or something similar to correlate across websites?
  - philipkglass 9y ago
    http://go.instartlogic.com/AppShield-Ad-Integrity-Data-Sheet.html http://go.instartlogic.com/AppShield-Ad-Integrity-Data-Sheet... "Web publishers make simple DNS changes to flow the network domains that carry their HTML through the Instart Logic system. This allows our system to inject a small piece of JavaScript that can detect the presence of ad blockers. When an ad blocker is detected, the JavaScript-based virtualization layer Nanovisor, together with our intelligent cloud-based, machine learning platform, encrypts and delivers all the elements of the page using the customer’s existing delivery services. As a result, each resource on the page, and any signals and actions such as measurement beacons or user clicks, will have its URL encrypted and obscured. This renders ad blockers ineffective, as they can no longer search for patterns which would indicate a resource is related to advertising. The result is simply the experience that the web publisher intended on delivering to the end user with no changes to the ad delivery or measurement systems; end users have no need to be aware the technology is even being used."

wfunction 9y ago

Any more reading on the Instart Logic tech detecting dev tools and hiding itself? I can't find much online.

TacoScott 9y ago
Typically it seems to poll window height/width vars in js. https://github.com/sindresorhus/devtools-detect https://github.com/sindresorhus/devtools-detect Another variant: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/7798748/find-out-whether-chrome-console-is-open/30638226#30638226 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/7798748/find-out-whether...
- wfunction 9y ago
  Sorry I meant I was looking for more like documentation on the product rather than implementation. Thanks though.

Aissen 9y ago

I'm pretty sure there might be a bug for this in the Chromium bug tracker that is hidden from the common folk, just like they hide their bug where websites can detect if you're in private mode(!): https://github.com/brave/browser-laptop/issues/9082#issuecomment-304382860 https://github.com/brave/browser-laptop/issues/9082#issuecom...

ams6110 9y ago

> Instart Logic tech which works around blockers Hadn't heard about this, but this is why I still keep long blacklist in my /etc/hosts file even though I use uBlock Origin also. Out of habit I get mine from http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.htm http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.htm. Not sure it's the best one, but I started using it years ago when I was still using Windows and have just stuck with it.