8 ms·

No, you are missing the point. For many years now, admissions standards have been so low that rather than teaching the courses they are scheduled to teach, col

No, you are missing the point. For many years now, admissions standards have been so low that rather than teaching the courses they are scheduled to teach, college professors are forced to offer a remedial review of information that should have been mastered in high school. Many, if not most, high school graduates are functionally illiterate, lacking the basic reading and writing skills we took for granted in the recent past. US students ranked 38th out of 71 countries in math, and 28th in science. Kids in Hungary and the Slovak Republic outranked us. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/15/u-s-students-internationally-math-science/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/15/u-s-students... The sad truth is that the university in the USA are just degree mills looking to make the most money possible. They have no problem steadily lowering their standards to match the steady decline in the US educational system as long as the federally-backed student-loans keep rolling in.

rtpg 9y ago
I know the US system has its issues relative to other places, but I have never seen research showing that people are in fact worse going out. In fact, I feel like I've seen a study showing that the "new math" teaching methodologies that get parents so mad nowadays end up with kids being better at math...
- talmand 9y ago
  Funny, my kids' math teachers have all stated to me, in public not whispers, they hate the "new math" and it is inhibiting them from teaching math correctly. Since I wasn't educated in the "new math" as a kid I have difficulties helping my children with their homework, which the teachers also admitted to being a problem. Typically I just show them how to solve the problem the way I learned and they pick it up much quicker. To each their own I suppose.
  - cafard 9y ago
    Does Common Core use what we called "the new math" back in the 1960s? (Tom Lehrer's song is probably as good an intro as any.) Good math teachers seem to be hard to find. That was true in my school days also.
    - wl 9y ago
      There's some similarities. The old new math was all about learning abstractions early. The new new math is all about approaching math problems from many different angles to build a sense of when you'd use certain techniques and why they work. The common thread is a lack of emphasis on rote application of algorithms without explanation of how they work. Arguably, that's less important in the era of pocket calculators and computers.
      - panda88888 9y ago
        I dislike the lack of emphasis on rote memorization. IMO the correct approach should be 1) understand the concepts, then 2) practice until such concept becomes muscle memory, which will serve as the foundation for the next level. This is the same approach that sports/martial art/artisans use (deliberate practice, etc). The concepts are tools, and being able to use those tools intuitively and instinctively is key to advancing to the next level.
        wl 9y ago
        Consider the standard long division algorithm. Would you rather students become fast and accurate in applying it or would you rather students have the skills to understand what's going on and derive it for themselves? Drilling will certainly help with the former, but it crowds out time that could be spent exploring concepts. There's a balance to be struck.
    - msla 9y ago
      No, Common Core mandates what kids need to learn when, not how they're taught.
  - nradov 9y ago
    The Common Core math curriculum is actually quite good and based on solid academic research on how to best teach those concepts to the majority of kids. Most of the parents complaining about it just haven't taken the time to read through their children's textbooks and understand the alternative techniques.
    - talmand 9y ago
      We don't have textbooks, we have worksheets. Worksheets with little or no explanation as to the expectations of how to complete the work. That part was covered in class. I was not in class, I was at work. My children don't always understand the alternative techniques and cannot explain them to me. I cannot assist my children in learning alternative techniques I did not learn. Since we're generalizing, I think that most people that complain about complaining parents haven't taken the time to listen to what the parents are actually complaining about.
      - rtpg 9y ago
        I can totally understand the frustration at not being able to help their kid at multiplication, of all things. It would be interesting if teachers could provide cliff's notes of the lessons so parents can help out. Would help the kids too! Or even better, teachers could have kids prepare explanations for the techniques. Might take a while but I bet the children will remember the techniques way better afterwards.
      - nradov 9y ago
        The information is readily available for free to anyone who bothers to do a little research. Your time would be better spent learning instead of complaining.
        talmand 9y ago
        I do the research online to figure out how to explain it. The point is I shouldn't have to do that. I'm only guessing at explaining things with the, hopefully, proper context as to how the teacher expects it to be versus what I found on the internet. But I'm happy everything works out so easily for you. I could only hope that one day I'll be as smart as you seem to be.
dragandj 9y ago
Why would that be surprising? Hungary and Slovak Republic are countries with long traditions of strong education.
- yazan94 9y ago
  For a while, isn't that what we prided ourselves in here in America?
  - cafard 9y ago
    The US has generally done well in expanding access to schooling. That has not been the same as strength in education.
- onion2k 9y ago
  It's surprising because the per capita expenditure on education is higher in the US than pretty much everywhere else[1]. Assuming everything else is approximately equal (there are enough teachers, teachers havw proper access to materials, the intelligence of children is the same, etc) it implies that either spending more on education has a negative impact or that the US is using the wrong teaching methods. [1] http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2015/apr/21/jeb-bush/does-united-states-spend-more-student-most-countri/ http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2015/apr/21/jeb...
  - dragandj 9y ago
    It's not all about the money, it's obvious....
  - cyrks 9y ago
    While educational spending per student is higher in the US, the travesty is where that money is spent. It's not all spent on the students. If it were, the US wouldn't have the (overall) terrible public educational system that it has.
    - ouid 9y ago
Shivetya 9y ago
I am worried that the sense of entitlement to a college education will just continue to dilute the value of a degree to where only those attending the very elite of schools will have anything of value. Reading through this article reminds me of decades ago approaches to making sure graduation rates for high school went up. they simply changed the requirements and load, put the burden on faculty, and labeled anyone who disagreed as a bigot/racist/etc. So we ended up with students who do not know how to learn and their understanding of basic math, science, and literature, suffered. Just what type of degree program will these young people actually obtain? Without the base Eskills how can they manage the more difficult subjects to come?
richardknop 9y ago
Ha thanks. I am from Slovak Republic originally. I don't think our schools are that good to be honest but I think there is a stronger emphasis on math/physics and technical skills in schools in Eastern Europe. Probably historical reasons.
- mannykannot 9y ago
  I have always thought (guessed, really) that it is because Eastern Europe (and, more recently, many parts of Asia) recognize something that the West sometimes forgets, even though that is where you will find the strongest evidence for it: technical competence can lead to radically better lives.
  - kaitai 9y ago
    Another factor: I know several people who went into math because it could not be politicized. There was not a party line to toe.
    - indigochill 9y ago
      They should hear about the Pythagoreans' discovery of irrational numbers (in which the discoverer is said to have been drowned at sea for undermining their belief that only positive ratios could exist): https://brilliant.org/discussions/thread/discovery-of-irrational-numbers/ https://brilliant.org/discussions/thread/discovery-of-irrati...
      - the_d00d 9y ago
        Interesting point, but if I remember correctly it was religious zeal rather than political.
g00gler 9y ago
I'm a recent graduate and work at my Alma mater, a large semi-private University. The bar was extremely low, especially at the business school. I was perplexed after reading people's discussion board posts or edit group work. Many students had serious trouble writing coherently or using proper grammar. Math classes were even more ridiculous. Around sophomore year I gave up on school work in favor of software development and still managed to graduate with a 3.2 GPA. I'm looking for a new job in part because I disagree with their decision to seriously ramp up marketing and recruitment. IMO if a university can't stand on their faculty / programs / research they aren't really worth attending.
- gozur88 9y ago
  StanislavPetrov is correct - the incentives are set up for the colleges to graduate you. If they don't have enough students, or too many drop out, they won't have enough income.
g00gler 9y ago
I'm a recent graduate and work at my Alma mater, a large semi-private University. The bar was extremely low, especially at the business school. I was perplexed after reading people's discussion board posts or edit group work. Many students had serious trouble writing coherently or using proper grammar. Math classes were even more ridiculous. Around sophomore year I gave up on school work in favor of software development and still managed to graduate with a 3.2 GPA. I'm looking for a new job in part because I disagree with their decision to seriously ramp up marketing and recruitment. IMO if a university can't stand on their faculty / programs / research they aren't really worth attending.
gruturo 9y ago
> US students ranked 38th out of 71 countries in math, and 28th in science. Kids in Hungary and the Slovak Republic outranked us. I understand the spirit of your example, but mentioning esp. Hungary is quite out of place. I work in an international context and have many colleagues from all over Europe - and the Hungarians absolutely kick major ass (Apologies to the HN community for the choice of language).
- cyrks 9y ago
  That is exactly the point. When the US has the #11 world GDP/capita and Slovakia has the 39th ranked GDP/capita (at 55% of the per capita GDP compared to the US), shouldn't the US strive to have higher educational standards? It's not down putting the Slovak educational system, it's more of a shot at the US system and the lack of emphasis on educational rigor. source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)...
  - kaitai 9y ago
    The US should strive to have better standards -- but it seems that there are interests that aim to have a less-educated population. There are strong forces thwarting the establishment of a well-paid and well-educated teaching profession in the US, strong forces against having standards in education (witness the fight against Common Core), and then strong forces determined to co-opt any minor successes in that direction (witness the crap materials produced by our major ed publishers labeled "common core", and the incredible profusion of badly-written tests that are in the end only designed for profit). The US citizenry allows this, overall. Partly there is the manipulation of reasonable desires for "freedom" and "local control," and part of it comes from the social attitudes toward math and science that lead to STEM being disproportionately dominated by children of immigrants in the US.
ebola1717 9y ago
Those studies are based on high school students... Yes lower-ed degree mills are a huge issue, and need regualating, but that hardly applies to CalState, which is a top tier public school: https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/cal-state-la-1140 https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/cal-state-la-1140
- mannykannot 9y ago
  > Those studies are based on high school students... Appropriately so, when the issue is their preparedness for further education. > Yes lower-ed degree mills are a huge issue, and need regualating, but that hardly applies to CalState, which is a top tier public school. The concern is that it appears to be taking a step in the degree-mill direction. Reading the article in full does not assuage that concern: “Our timeline for implementation is aggressive,” Minor [Cal State’s senior strategist for academic success and inclusive excellence] said, but “we've got more than enough evidence to suggest that our current treatment of students, with the use of developmental education courses, doesn't serve them very well. ... And we have worked with and talked to our faculty... who are ready to roll up their sleeves and do the hard work that we need to do to serve our students better.” [all elisions were made in the Times article, so I am trusting the journalist has not misrepresented Mr. Minor.] The justification seems to be that this will work because a) other things do not, and b) we want it to work. Anyone who understands how bureaucracies respond to "aggressive" mandates that specify outcomes for unproven methods probably has misgivings.
- wl 9y ago
  CSU is literally middle tier in the scheme of public post-secondary education in California, being sandwiched between the junior colleges on the lower end and the University of California on the higher end. While certain campuses like Cal Poly punch above their weight, the system as a whole is not selective.
ouid 9y ago
Just because the dumbest people participating in university courses have gotten a lot dumber doesn't mean that anyone else is affected by this change. Lowering the bar for acceptance is not the same thing as lowering the quality of education. Hell if anything, universities are making up for the massive shortcoming of public schooling by offering courses to people who would not have otherwise received anything resembling an education. As for the degree mill statement, who cares? Since when do degrees matter anyway? If destroying the integrity of the accreditation system results in more people getting an education, then so be it. Accreditation is almost never anything more than a racket anyway.

rtpg 9y ago

I know the US system has its issues relative to other places, but I have never seen research showing that people are in fact worse going out. In fact, I feel like I've seen a study showing that the "new math" teaching methodologies that get parents so mad nowadays end up with kids being better at math...

talmand 9y ago
Funny, my kids' math teachers have all stated to me, in public not whispers, they hate the "new math" and it is inhibiting them from teaching math correctly. Since I wasn't educated in the "new math" as a kid I have difficulties helping my children with their homework, which the teachers also admitted to being a problem. Typically I just show them how to solve the problem the way I learned and they pick it up much quicker. To each their own I suppose.
- cafard 9y ago
  Does Common Core use what we called "the new math" back in the 1960s? (Tom Lehrer's song is probably as good an intro as any.) Good math teachers seem to be hard to find. That was true in my school days also.
  - wl 9y ago
    There's some similarities. The old new math was all about learning abstractions early. The new new math is all about approaching math problems from many different angles to build a sense of when you'd use certain techniques and why they work. The common thread is a lack of emphasis on rote application of algorithms without explanation of how they work. Arguably, that's less important in the era of pocket calculators and computers.
    - panda88888 9y ago
      I dislike the lack of emphasis on rote memorization. IMO the correct approach should be 1) understand the concepts, then 2) practice until such concept becomes muscle memory, which will serve as the foundation for the next level. This is the same approach that sports/martial art/artisans use (deliberate practice, etc). The concepts are tools, and being able to use those tools intuitively and instinctively is key to advancing to the next level.
      - wl 9y ago
        Consider the standard long division algorithm. Would you rather students become fast and accurate in applying it or would you rather students have the skills to understand what's going on and derive it for themselves? Drilling will certainly help with the former, but it crowds out time that could be spent exploring concepts. There's a balance to be struck.
  - msla 9y ago
    No, Common Core mandates what kids need to learn when, not how they're taught.
- nradov 9y ago
  The Common Core math curriculum is actually quite good and based on solid academic research on how to best teach those concepts to the majority of kids. Most of the parents complaining about it just haven't taken the time to read through their children's textbooks and understand the alternative techniques.
  - talmand 9y ago
    We don't have textbooks, we have worksheets. Worksheets with little or no explanation as to the expectations of how to complete the work. That part was covered in class. I was not in class, I was at work. My children don't always understand the alternative techniques and cannot explain them to me. I cannot assist my children in learning alternative techniques I did not learn. Since we're generalizing, I think that most people that complain about complaining parents haven't taken the time to listen to what the parents are actually complaining about.
    - rtpg 9y ago
      I can totally understand the frustration at not being able to help their kid at multiplication, of all things. It would be interesting if teachers could provide cliff's notes of the lessons so parents can help out. Would help the kids too! Or even better, teachers could have kids prepare explanations for the techniques. Might take a while but I bet the children will remember the techniques way better afterwards.
    - nradov 9y ago
      The information is readily available for free to anyone who bothers to do a little research. Your time would be better spent learning instead of complaining.
      - talmand 9y ago
        I do the research online to figure out how to explain it. The point is I shouldn't have to do that. I'm only guessing at explaining things with the, hopefully, proper context as to how the teacher expects it to be versus what I found on the internet. But I'm happy everything works out so easily for you. I could only hope that one day I'll be as smart as you seem to be.

dragandj 9y ago

Why would that be surprising? Hungary and Slovak Republic are countries with long traditions of strong education.

yazan94 9y ago
For a while, isn't that what we prided ourselves in here in America?
- cafard 9y ago
  The US has generally done well in expanding access to schooling. That has not been the same as strength in education.
onion2k 9y ago
It's surprising because the per capita expenditure on education is higher in the US than pretty much everywhere else[1]. Assuming everything else is approximately equal (there are enough teachers, teachers havw proper access to materials, the intelligence of children is the same, etc) it implies that either spending more on education has a negative impact or that the US is using the wrong teaching methods. [1] http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2015/apr/21/jeb-bush/does-united-states-spend-more-student-most-countri/ http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2015/apr/21/jeb...
- dragandj 9y ago
  It's not all about the money, it's obvious....
- cyrks 9y ago
  While educational spending per student is higher in the US, the travesty is where that money is spent. It's not all spent on the students. If it were, the US wouldn't have the (overall) terrible public educational system that it has.
  - ouid 9y ago

Shivetya 9y ago

I am worried that the sense of entitlement to a college education will just continue to dilute the value of a degree to where only those attending the very elite of schools will have anything of value. Reading through this article reminds me of decades ago approaches to making sure graduation rates for high school went up. they simply changed the requirements and load, put the burden on faculty, and labeled anyone who disagreed as a bigot/racist/etc. So we ended up with students who do not know how to learn and their understanding of basic math, science, and literature, suffered. Just what type of degree program will these young people actually obtain? Without the base Eskills how can they manage the more difficult subjects to come?

richardknop 9y ago

Ha thanks. I am from Slovak Republic originally. I don't think our schools are that good to be honest but I think there is a stronger emphasis on math/physics and technical skills in schools in Eastern Europe. Probably historical reasons.

mannykannot 9y ago
I have always thought (guessed, really) that it is because Eastern Europe (and, more recently, many parts of Asia) recognize something that the West sometimes forgets, even though that is where you will find the strongest evidence for it: technical competence can lead to radically better lives.
- kaitai 9y ago
  Another factor: I know several people who went into math because it could not be politicized. There was not a party line to toe.
  - indigochill 9y ago
    They should hear about the Pythagoreans' discovery of irrational numbers (in which the discoverer is said to have been drowned at sea for undermining their belief that only positive ratios could exist): https://brilliant.org/discussions/thread/discovery-of-irrational-numbers/ https://brilliant.org/discussions/thread/discovery-of-irrati...
    - the_d00d 9y ago
      Interesting point, but if I remember correctly it was religious zeal rather than political.

g00gler 9y ago

I'm a recent graduate and work at my Alma mater, a large semi-private University. The bar was extremely low, especially at the business school. I was perplexed after reading people's discussion board posts or edit group work. Many students had serious trouble writing coherently or using proper grammar. Math classes were even more ridiculous. Around sophomore year I gave up on school work in favor of software development and still managed to graduate with a 3.2 GPA. I'm looking for a new job in part because I disagree with their decision to seriously ramp up marketing and recruitment. IMO if a university can't stand on their faculty / programs / research they aren't really worth attending.

gozur88 9y ago
StanislavPetrov is correct - the incentives are set up for the colleges to graduate you. If they don't have enough students, or too many drop out, they won't have enough income.

g00gler 9y ago

gruturo 9y ago

> US students ranked 38th out of 71 countries in math, and 28th in science. Kids in Hungary and the Slovak Republic outranked us. I understand the spirit of your example, but mentioning esp. Hungary is quite out of place. I work in an international context and have many colleagues from all over Europe - and the Hungarians absolutely kick major ass (Apologies to the HN community for the choice of language).

cyrks 9y ago
That is exactly the point. When the US has the #11 world GDP/capita and Slovakia has the 39th ranked GDP/capita (at 55% of the per capita GDP compared to the US), shouldn't the US strive to have higher educational standards? It's not down putting the Slovak educational system, it's more of a shot at the US system and the lack of emphasis on educational rigor. source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)...
- kaitai 9y ago
  The US should strive to have better standards -- but it seems that there are interests that aim to have a less-educated population. There are strong forces thwarting the establishment of a well-paid and well-educated teaching profession in the US, strong forces against having standards in education (witness the fight against Common Core), and then strong forces determined to co-opt any minor successes in that direction (witness the crap materials produced by our major ed publishers labeled "common core", and the incredible profusion of badly-written tests that are in the end only designed for profit). The US citizenry allows this, overall. Partly there is the manipulation of reasonable desires for "freedom" and "local control," and part of it comes from the social attitudes toward math and science that lead to STEM being disproportionately dominated by children of immigrants in the US.

ebola1717 9y ago

Those studies are based on high school students... Yes lower-ed degree mills are a huge issue, and need regualating, but that hardly applies to CalState, which is a top tier public school: https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/cal-state-la-1140 https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/cal-state-la-1140

mannykannot 9y ago
> Those studies are based on high school students... Appropriately so, when the issue is their preparedness for further education. > Yes lower-ed degree mills are a huge issue, and need regualating, but that hardly applies to CalState, which is a top tier public school. The concern is that it appears to be taking a step in the degree-mill direction. Reading the article in full does not assuage that concern: “Our timeline for implementation is aggressive,” Minor [Cal State’s senior strategist for academic success and inclusive excellence] said, but “we've got more than enough evidence to suggest that our current treatment of students, with the use of developmental education courses, doesn't serve them very well. ... And we have worked with and talked to our faculty... who are ready to roll up their sleeves and do the hard work that we need to do to serve our students better.” [all elisions were made in the Times article, so I am trusting the journalist has not misrepresented Mr. Minor.] The justification seems to be that this will work because a) other things do not, and b) we want it to work. Anyone who understands how bureaucracies respond to "aggressive" mandates that specify outcomes for unproven methods probably has misgivings.
wl 9y ago
CSU is literally middle tier in the scheme of public post-secondary education in California, being sandwiched between the junior colleges on the lower end and the University of California on the higher end. While certain campuses like Cal Poly punch above their weight, the system as a whole is not selective.

ouid 9y ago

Just because the dumbest people participating in university courses have gotten a lot dumber doesn't mean that anyone else is affected by this change. Lowering the bar for acceptance is not the same thing as lowering the quality of education. Hell if anything, universities are making up for the massive shortcoming of public schooling by offering courses to people who would not have otherwise received anything resembling an education. As for the degree mill statement, who cares? Since when do degrees matter anyway? If destroying the integrity of the accreditation system results in more people getting an education, then so be it. Accreditation is almost never anything more than a racket anyway.