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Children work in Congolese mines where cobalt is extracted for smartphones

175 points by guscost 9y ago

stickfigure 9y ago
I don't like it when people try to emotionally manipulate me. Dorsen is threatened with a beating as he works in heavy rain It's almost a cliche. There may be a horrible injustice going on here, and if so it really deserves better reporting. Give me some numbers, some sense of scale. Is this a widespread problem?
- sanxiyn 9y ago
  USGS Minerals Information has some basic numbers: https://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/cobalt/ https://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/cobalt/ Choice quotes: "Congo continued to be the world's leading source of mined cobalt, supplying more than one-half of world cobalt mine production... World cobalt consumption is driven mainly by strong growth in the rechargeable battery and aerospace industries... China was the world's leading consumer of cobalt, with nearly 80% of its consumption being used by the rechargeable battery industry." So those basic facts are correct. Data on working condition of Congolese cobalt mine is much harder to get. On the other hand, it could have been misleading for following reasons, say, only small amount of cobalt is produced in Congo, or only small amount of cobalt is used for high-tech batteries. But this time, both are not the case.
  - samstave 9y ago
    Is it the leader due to in-ground cobalt supply/Capacity or due to number of slaves mining it and cost of slaves to mine required amount vs cost of slaves in other locales?
    - sanxiyn 9y ago
      It is due to reserve distribution. It just happens that the richest cobalt reserve on the Earth found so far is located at Mukondo, Katanga, Congo.
- andrepd 9y ago
  There are numbers to satisfy you, but some people connect more with concrete stories. That's how they get a sense of the problem, by hearing stories from real people, rather than numbers. People are different in what makes them care.
  - lmm 9y ago
    I wish there was more numerate reporting out there though. I'm all for there being news sources for people who prefer the individual-human perspective (though some abuse this by picking unrepresentative anecdotes to spread dangerous misconceptions), but I'd like there to be some that served the more statistically-conscious market.
    - andrepd 9y ago
      Oh yes absolutely.
  - stickfigure 9y ago
    The problem with the "single human tragedy" narrative is that it historically has been abused to motivate disproportionate responses (see also: drug policy). This article was a call to action, but the appropriate response is differs for "just one sad kid" and "a whole country enslaved", with quite a spectrum between.
sanxiyn 9y ago
This is a delicate topic. "In the United States, Dodd–Frank Act required manufacturers to audit their supply chains and report use of conflict minerals", see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_minerals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_minerals. The problem here is that cobalt is not included in the list of conflict minerals. For one point of view, you may want to read "Why Cobalt Is Not a Conflict Mineral": https://agmetalminer.com/2011/06/06/why-cobalt-is-not-a-conflict-mineral/ https://agmetalminer.com/2011/06/06/why-cobalt-is-not-a-conf...
- owenversteeg 9y ago
  Agreed. A lot of things seem black and white on the surface. A lot of articles seem to imply "think of the children, make cobalt a conflict mineral!" but this would have some insane destabilizing effects. The story has a lot of parallels to the story of the Harkin Bill. For those that don't know, I've paraphrased the Wikipedia article below: "Based on the Bangladesh Bureau of Statistics Labor Force Survey estimated there were about 5.7 million 10- to 14-year-old children engaged in Child labour in Bangladesh. This number may have been as high as 15 million children." ... "In 1993 employers in Bangladesh' ready-made garment (RMG) industry dismissed 50,000 children (c. 75 percent of child workers in the textile industry) out of fear of economic reprisals of the imminent passage of the Child Labor Deterrence Act" ... "The act which banned "importation to the United States of products which are manufactured or mined in whole or in part by children" would have resulted in the loss of lucrative American contracts. Its impact on Bangladesh's economy would have been significant as the export-oriented ready-made garment industry represents most of the country's exports." ... "UNICEF sent a team of investigators into Bangladesh to learn what came of the children who were dismissed from their factory jobs. UNICEF's 1997 State of the World's Children report confirmed that most of the children found themselves in much more deplorable situations, such as crushing stones, scavenging through trash dumps, and begging on the streets. Many of the girls eventually ended up in prostitution." I highly recommend everyone read the full Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_Labor_Deterrence_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_Labor_Deterrence_Act - - - - For anyone who skipped to the bottom for a TL;DR: Bangladesh had millions of child laborers, US Senator Harkin proposed a bill that would ban importing products made with child labor, and Bangladesh's garment industry (which was most of the country's exports) fired 75% of the children. As a result most children found worse work: crushing stones, scavenging trash, and prostitution.
toomanybeersies 9y ago
The sad thing about these situations is that for the people working for pennies a day, it's better than nothing.
- snambi 9y ago
  nah... they will be better off without the so called pennies.
- camus2 9y ago
  > The sad thing about these situations is that for the people working for pennies a day, it's better than nothing. You're assuming they are paid to begin with, there is plenty of child-slavery in Africa. Some of these kids are sold by relatives. They aren't paid at all since the relative has already been paid.
  - randyrand 9y ago
    Even in america child labor was typically unpaid. Your parents made you work in the fields and in return they fed you and raised you. I would imagine these scenarios are similar.
bronz 9y ago
cobalt is being phased out of lithium batteries, at least at tesla.
snambi 9y ago
Imagine the same thing happened in somewhere in USA or Europe. Will anyone argue against shutting down these cell phone companies?
- mc32 9y ago
  No, because people in industrialized nations have alternatives --either job-wise or welfare subsidies. People in third world countries don't have good alternatives --they are where we were 80-100 years ago, maybe more.
  - forkLding 9y ago
    Third world is also no longer used in Social Sciences and Academic circles as a classification as Third World originally meant the countries that did not either support USA or the Soviet Union during the Cold War, I think the latest term is developing states. That aside, why not ensure better regulations and ways on the mines, if cobalt is only readily available in large amounts in the Congo and phones being one of the more profitable products, you are only exploiting the local peoples. I understand it would have a huge impact on supply chains and manufacturing but the alternative is losing lives, I remember this same debate from years ago about people losing lives for phones in Congolese mines and am somewhat amazed that its literally the same issues.
    - mc32 9y ago
      Right, I meant underdeveloped nations. But third world is understood as long hand for the same --but now without the hegemonic context. (calling them one way or the other does not magically improve their lot or make it worse) Cobalt is available in other countries (US, Mexico, among others) but starting up a mine is not cheap and takes years --I think Idaho has/had one?. We could mine more and then those people would lose the little they have. As someone else said, their best bet as a society is to follow in China's footsteps to ramp up quickly --though note they have paid a pretty heavy price (pollution). Still, on the whole, I don't think it can be argued sincerely that they have not come out way ahead.
microcolonel 9y ago
As long as they're paid wages which are attractive to them, I don't see exactly what's wrong. Every modern society in the world has worked through child labour to the point that they can obsolete it. The prohibitions against it in the west came after most people didn't work as children anyway.
- onion2k 9y ago
  As long as they're paid wages which are attractive to them, I don't see exactly what's wrong. When the alternative is starving to death a very low wage that essentially only gives you enough to not die becomes quite attractive. That doesn't mean it's fair, reasonable or right.
  - mirko22 9y ago
    > When the alternative is starving to death This. If this is the alternative how is the solution stop buying cobalt from them? So basically, cos we want to feel morally superior these people will have to alternatively starve to death cos there is not much else going on in that part of the world to make money on... ? :/ While I am sadden by stories like this, unfortunately I think the solution requires complete overhaul of the environment they are in not just running the mine out of business. They need another alternative. But this cannot be changed by the outsiders :( And there are similar stories, if not worse, with tobacco industry in Africa, but I assume it is not as attractive to journalists as "mining" is seen more like a slave job. (Kids basically pick and sort tobacco leaves with no protection which makes them absorb dangerous amounts of nicotine) But the solution is not to stop smoking but to give them alternative. The only reason we don't have child labor in western countries is that we have alternative means of getting food for which we, thank god, don't need to utilize children. (One good alternative I've seen is tea plantations, partially cos tea doesn't have harmful chemical for people so they need to invest less in protective gear for example)
rcdwealth 9y ago
That is sensationalism out of the context of living conditions of those children. First of all, just all children in Africa are "working" in the sense that they are fetching water every day from wells and water sources, often on their heads, as much as they can carry, but not too much. Without water, no child can wash their bodies, and no food can be cooked. Children work in any area of life helping adults to push vegetables, sort things, and anything where a child can be helpful. They are not spoiled and learn that way how to contribute to family. There is nothing wrong with it. It is not "work", and children are not "paid" moneys, they are simply helping their parents. There is really nothing wrong with helping. The environment in such mining areas is such that families usually have no work at all. Suddenly somebody is opening a mine, and it becomes matter of speed to collect whatever is representing a resource, to exchange such resource for better life. Sometimes work is so easy such as separating various stones from other stones. When parents know that there are some dangerous chemicals, they would not involve their children. Congolese people are not that dumb how story wants to show it. Children are helping in such activities that are appropriate for them. Nobody is forcing them, and there are schools, those who need to go to school, usually go. Everywhere in Europe, before European development, before some 100 years, children were helping parents in the same way. Now with that nice life, and all development that happened in the meantime, it is easy to point out fingers "look you are employing children", but that is not quite correct description. Problem is larger than "children labor", and I do not see it as "labor", I see that as children helping parents. I have never seen a forceful parent or "employee" who is forcing children to work. Sensationalism makes it appear so. To understand really situation, one need to come on place, and not just sit behind a modern computer, watching pictures from Congo. In the end, what you want? That they do not get any food, money, cloth, resources required for living?
- vacri 9y ago
  Interesting, the variations in explaining this stuff away. Here are you saying "this labour is just part of being a family in Africa", and upthread there's someone saying "if children didn't have these jobs, they'd be forced into prostitution". > When parents know that there are some dangerous chemicals, they would not involve their children. I've seen first-hand, here in a first-world country, people with engineering degrees working in manufacturing with dangerous chemicals refuse to bother putting on safety gear. Hell, the whole OH&S industry has trouble getting employees to act safely, not just employers.
kobeya 9y ago
I'm glad they have a job. Their families probably need it very much. I hope that their hard work allows the next generation of Congolese to live in greater prosperity.
- teekert 9y ago
  If they survive, remain fertile and if their backs even allow them to pick up their own children. And if they can break the circle of "it's accepted kids should work becuase I did it too". A lot of ifs.
  - deleted 9y ago
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- grecy 9y ago
  I have seen the impact of mines like this first hand in many third world countries. It is not what you think. The people work horrendous hours for a tiny amount of money - maybe 50 cents per day. At the end of the day they need to pay for food (no time to grow it) and pay for people to do things like make their shelter, clothes and transport (no time to do it for themselves). And so they have zero money left. They also work in horrible conditions and have a life expectancy of ~40. In many countries (Cameroon, Bolivia, Ivory Coast, Senegal, etc. etc.) I have seen where this crosses a line, and the locals simply choose not to work and just go back to growing their own food etc. Often they are happier and better off. Yes, this forces the wages to go up a tiny fraction, but in reality it is almost nothing, because there are always more naive country-folk coming in who think (as you do) "having a job is great" and they will "provide for their families" etc. By the time they figure out the whole thing is a terrible scam and quit, they already live in a slum in the city and can't go back. They are trapped. They probably even owe the mine some money or live in housing provided by the mine, so they are literally owned. Your idealized view of Capitalism is plain wrong. It does not happen like that in countries that do not have strict labor laws. (and even then, I would argue that many in the USA are working-slaves) Read Grapes of Wrath if you have not, it does a fantastic job of illustrating how people become trapped in extremely low-paying jobs with little to no choice.
gwenzek 9y ago
I don't know what makes me most sick : That a profitable business like smartphone making rely on child labor Or that people are using 900$ phones to explain that those children should be happy to have a 1p/day job. Free market surely doesn't apply to starving 7 years old. What are the alternative they know about? Who brought them to the mine? What the difference between that and slavery? Is slavery allowed because "they could end up as prostitute"? As Congo owns a big proportion of Cobalt they should be able to hire "adults" to do the work and pay them more. Given they have any incentive to do so, which they currently don't.
- Torai 9y ago
  No, the main actors involved have no incentive in doing so. http://projectcensored.org/19-american-companies-exploit-the-congo/ http://projectcensored.org/19-american-companies-exploit-the... > Historically, the U.S. government identified sources of materials in Third World countries, and then encouraged U.S. corporations to invest in and facilitate their production. Dating back to the mid-1960s, the U.S. government literally installed the dictatorship of Mobutu Sese Seko, which gave U.S. corporations access to the Congo’s minerals for more than 30 years. However, over the years Mobutu began to limit access by Western corporations, and to control the distribution of resources. In 1998, U.S. military-trained leaders of Rwanda and Uganda invaded the mineral-rich areas of the Congo. The invaders installed illegal colonial-style governments which continue to receive millions of dollars in arms and military training from the United States. Our government and a $5 million Citibank loan maintains the rebel presence in the Congo. Their control of mineral rich areas allows western corporations, such as American Mineral Fields, to illegally mine. Rwandan and Ugandan control over this area is beneficial for both governments and for the corporations that continue to exploit the Congo’s natural wealth.
  - fil_a_del_fee_a 9y ago
    This should be the top comment. Nearly all of the problems in the world revolve around US installed dictators, financed by US banks, lobbied by US corporations.
    - 9y ago
JoeAltmaier 9y ago
Much of the angst in this thread are the first-world confused sort: "Why don't they just eat cake?" Its a hard world. You don't solve child-labor by simply firing the children. There has to be a whole social net to catch unemployed children, feed them and give them schooling. I worked all my young life, in Iowa, on a farm. One of the most dangerous jobs in America according to the actuarials. No lasting damage to me, though not all my cohort actually survived unscathed into adulthood. Heck, half my fathers' generation had nicknames like 'lefty' and 'stub'. Should working children on farms in Iowa be banned? Had it happened when I was young, half the family farms would have gone under. Its not some academic third-world issue. You ate that food we produced. And at the time, it wasn't going to be produced any other way.
- guscost 9y ago
  This debate seems focused entirely on ethics, but I posted the story because: 1. It's important to call out injustice and fight for what we can improve in our own communities, but it's also important to remember that this is the day to day reality for many people. We should reflect on our lives every so often and feel lucky, because it's healthy if for no other reason. 2. When we measure value and progress using dollars and technology, and we only pay attention to the things in front of us, there is collateral damage. If you're on a blind mission to make computers affordable to everyone, or to compete with hydrocarbon and fission energy on price, this is one effect.
- albertgoeswoof 9y ago
  I really dislike the anti-"academic" viewpoint of this comment. It is a issue that has been solved countless times before and applying academic analyses are exactly what's needed to resolve this. > Should working children on farms in Iowa be banned? Had it happened when I was young, half the family farms would have gone under. probably yes. If you can't support a business without relying on child labour, it's not much of a business. I'm guessing this was around 20-40 years ago, during which time food production boomed across america and food prices plummeted. So yes, the food would have been produced regardless, you and your peers would have had more time to spend on education and the net personal and economic benefits would have been positive. If you took the children out of the mines the cobalt would still get mined. The owners would find technology and process efficiencies to stay price competitive, if those don't exist then the price of mobile phones should go up. These parents are no different to those in developed countries and would want what's best for their children, if they had the choice - so that safety net would get added.
ilaksh 9y ago
Look up the admitted history of US intervention in the Congo and nearby countries. We created a messed up economic and political situation deliberately with military/intelligence tactics so that mining companies could more profitably exploit those countries. If we had not used strong arm tactics then they would be charging much more for the minerals and would have a good chance of creating a healthy economy.
gridit 9y ago
The work of a scholar I follow has covers this topic a little. Chris Blattman recently co-wrote an op-ed [0] about his data covering sweatshops in Ethiopia. They found that it wasn't always so clear that these dangerous industrial jobs lifted people out of poverty. In a really neat trial, they went to factory owners and randomized the acceptance for job applicants, tracking the outcomes of people who found employment elsewhere. Chris originally made his name studying the lives of former child soldiers in Uganda. Recommend his mostly-professional twitter feed [1] [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/27/opinion/do-sweatshops-lift-workers-out-of-poverty.html?_r=1 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/27/opinion/do-sweatshops-lif... [1] https://twitter.com/cblatts https://twitter.com/cblatts
jlebrech 9y ago
what if someone built a coding farm instead of mines, people would still complain because it's taking advantage of them but isn't progress the best way to elevate them?
Vinnl 9y ago
If anyone's interested, there's a brand of phones that's actively trying to change this: https://www.fairphone.com/en/ https://www.fairphone.com/en/ Contrary to other brands, they can actually try to fix it because they can also admit that this is an issue with their first two phones: because they're an awareness campaign as well, because they're documenting what issues they encounter and why it's so difficult, and because they want to be the trailblazer that figures out how to improve this situation, so other brands can copy their model.

175 points by guscost 9y ago

I don't like it when people try to emotionally manipulate me. Dorsen is threatened with a beating as he works in heavy rain It's almost a cliche. There may be a horrible injustice going on here, and if so it really deserves better reporting. Give me some numbers, some sense of scale. Is this a widespread problem?

sanxiyn 9y ago
USGS Minerals Information has some basic numbers: https://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/cobalt/ https://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/cobalt/ Choice quotes: "Congo continued to be the world's leading source of mined cobalt, supplying more than one-half of world cobalt mine production... World cobalt consumption is driven mainly by strong growth in the rechargeable battery and aerospace industries... China was the world's leading consumer of cobalt, with nearly 80% of its consumption being used by the rechargeable battery industry." So those basic facts are correct. Data on working condition of Congolese cobalt mine is much harder to get. On the other hand, it could have been misleading for following reasons, say, only small amount of cobalt is produced in Congo, or only small amount of cobalt is used for high-tech batteries. But this time, both are not the case.
- samstave 9y ago
  Is it the leader due to in-ground cobalt supply/Capacity or due to number of slaves mining it and cost of slaves to mine required amount vs cost of slaves in other locales?
  - sanxiyn 9y ago
    It is due to reserve distribution. It just happens that the richest cobalt reserve on the Earth found so far is located at Mukondo, Katanga, Congo.
andrepd 9y ago
There are numbers to satisfy you, but some people connect more with concrete stories. That's how they get a sense of the problem, by hearing stories from real people, rather than numbers. People are different in what makes them care.
- lmm 9y ago
  I wish there was more numerate reporting out there though. I'm all for there being news sources for people who prefer the individual-human perspective (though some abuse this by picking unrepresentative anecdotes to spread dangerous misconceptions), but I'd like there to be some that served the more statistically-conscious market.
  - andrepd 9y ago
    Oh yes absolutely.
- stickfigure 9y ago
  The problem with the "single human tragedy" narrative is that it historically has been abused to motivate disproportionate responses (see also: drug policy). This article was a call to action, but the appropriate response is differs for "just one sad kid" and "a whole country enslaved", with quite a spectrum between.

sanxiyn 9y ago

This is a delicate topic. "In the United States, Dodd–Frank Act required manufacturers to audit their supply chains and report use of conflict minerals", see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_minerals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_minerals. The problem here is that cobalt is not included in the list of conflict minerals. For one point of view, you may want to read "Why Cobalt Is Not a Conflict Mineral": https://agmetalminer.com/2011/06/06/why-cobalt-is-not-a-conflict-mineral/ https://agmetalminer.com/2011/06/06/why-cobalt-is-not-a-conf...

owenversteeg 9y ago
Agreed. A lot of things seem black and white on the surface. A lot of articles seem to imply "think of the children, make cobalt a conflict mineral!" but this would have some insane destabilizing effects. The story has a lot of parallels to the story of the Harkin Bill. For those that don't know, I've paraphrased the Wikipedia article below: "Based on the Bangladesh Bureau of Statistics Labor Force Survey estimated there were about 5.7 million 10- to 14-year-old children engaged in Child labour in Bangladesh. This number may have been as high as 15 million children." ... "In 1993 employers in Bangladesh' ready-made garment (RMG) industry dismissed 50,000 children (c. 75 percent of child workers in the textile industry) out of fear of economic reprisals of the imminent passage of the Child Labor Deterrence Act" ... "The act which banned "importation to the United States of products which are manufactured or mined in whole or in part by children" would have resulted in the loss of lucrative American contracts. Its impact on Bangladesh's economy would have been significant as the export-oriented ready-made garment industry represents most of the country's exports." ... "UNICEF sent a team of investigators into Bangladesh to learn what came of the children who were dismissed from their factory jobs. UNICEF's 1997 State of the World's Children report confirmed that most of the children found themselves in much more deplorable situations, such as crushing stones, scavenging through trash dumps, and begging on the streets. Many of the girls eventually ended up in prostitution." I highly recommend everyone read the full Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_Labor_Deterrence_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_Labor_Deterrence_Act - - - - For anyone who skipped to the bottom for a TL;DR: Bangladesh had millions of child laborers, US Senator Harkin proposed a bill that would ban importing products made with child labor, and Bangladesh's garment industry (which was most of the country's exports) fired 75% of the children. As a result most children found worse work: crushing stones, scavenging trash, and prostitution.

toomanybeersies 9y ago

The sad thing about these situations is that for the people working for pennies a day, it's better than nothing.

snambi 9y ago
nah... they will be better off without the so called pennies.
camus2 9y ago
> The sad thing about these situations is that for the people working for pennies a day, it's better than nothing. You're assuming they are paid to begin with, there is plenty of child-slavery in Africa. Some of these kids are sold by relatives. They aren't paid at all since the relative has already been paid.
- randyrand 9y ago
  Even in america child labor was typically unpaid. Your parents made you work in the fields and in return they fed you and raised you. I would imagine these scenarios are similar.

bronz 9y ago

cobalt is being phased out of lithium batteries, at least at tesla.

snambi 9y ago

Imagine the same thing happened in somewhere in USA or Europe. Will anyone argue against shutting down these cell phone companies?

mc32 9y ago
No, because people in industrialized nations have alternatives --either job-wise or welfare subsidies. People in third world countries don't have good alternatives --they are where we were 80-100 years ago, maybe more.
- forkLding 9y ago
  Third world is also no longer used in Social Sciences and Academic circles as a classification as Third World originally meant the countries that did not either support USA or the Soviet Union during the Cold War, I think the latest term is developing states. That aside, why not ensure better regulations and ways on the mines, if cobalt is only readily available in large amounts in the Congo and phones being one of the more profitable products, you are only exploiting the local peoples. I understand it would have a huge impact on supply chains and manufacturing but the alternative is losing lives, I remember this same debate from years ago about people losing lives for phones in Congolese mines and am somewhat amazed that its literally the same issues.
  - mc32 9y ago
    Right, I meant underdeveloped nations. But third world is understood as long hand for the same --but now without the hegemonic context. (calling them one way or the other does not magically improve their lot or make it worse) Cobalt is available in other countries (US, Mexico, among others) but starting up a mine is not cheap and takes years --I think Idaho has/had one?. We could mine more and then those people would lose the little they have. As someone else said, their best bet as a society is to follow in China's footsteps to ramp up quickly --though note they have paid a pretty heavy price (pollution). Still, on the whole, I don't think it can be argued sincerely that they have not come out way ahead.

microcolonel 9y ago

As long as they're paid wages which are attractive to them, I don't see exactly what's wrong. Every modern society in the world has worked through child labour to the point that they can obsolete it. The prohibitions against it in the west came after most people didn't work as children anyway.

onion2k 9y ago
As long as they're paid wages which are attractive to them, I don't see exactly what's wrong. When the alternative is starving to death a very low wage that essentially only gives you enough to not die becomes quite attractive. That doesn't mean it's fair, reasonable or right.
- mirko22 9y ago
  > When the alternative is starving to death This. If this is the alternative how is the solution stop buying cobalt from them? So basically, cos we want to feel morally superior these people will have to alternatively starve to death cos there is not much else going on in that part of the world to make money on... ? :/ While I am sadden by stories like this, unfortunately I think the solution requires complete overhaul of the environment they are in not just running the mine out of business. They need another alternative. But this cannot be changed by the outsiders :( And there are similar stories, if not worse, with tobacco industry in Africa, but I assume it is not as attractive to journalists as "mining" is seen more like a slave job. (Kids basically pick and sort tobacco leaves with no protection which makes them absorb dangerous amounts of nicotine) But the solution is not to stop smoking but to give them alternative. The only reason we don't have child labor in western countries is that we have alternative means of getting food for which we, thank god, don't need to utilize children. (One good alternative I've seen is tea plantations, partially cos tea doesn't have harmful chemical for people so they need to invest less in protective gear for example)

rcdwealth 9y ago

That is sensationalism out of the context of living conditions of those children. First of all, just all children in Africa are "working" in the sense that they are fetching water every day from wells and water sources, often on their heads, as much as they can carry, but not too much. Without water, no child can wash their bodies, and no food can be cooked. Children work in any area of life helping adults to push vegetables, sort things, and anything where a child can be helpful. They are not spoiled and learn that way how to contribute to family. There is nothing wrong with it. It is not "work", and children are not "paid" moneys, they are simply helping their parents. There is really nothing wrong with helping. The environment in such mining areas is such that families usually have no work at all. Suddenly somebody is opening a mine, and it becomes matter of speed to collect whatever is representing a resource, to exchange such resource for better life. Sometimes work is so easy such as separating various stones from other stones. When parents know that there are some dangerous chemicals, they would not involve their children. Congolese people are not that dumb how story wants to show it. Children are helping in such activities that are appropriate for them. Nobody is forcing them, and there are schools, those who need to go to school, usually go. Everywhere in Europe, before European development, before some 100 years, children were helping parents in the same way. Now with that nice life, and all development that happened in the meantime, it is easy to point out fingers "look you are employing children", but that is not quite correct description. Problem is larger than "children labor", and I do not see it as "labor", I see that as children helping parents. I have never seen a forceful parent or "employee" who is forcing children to work. Sensationalism makes it appear so. To understand really situation, one need to come on place, and not just sit behind a modern computer, watching pictures from Congo. In the end, what you want? That they do not get any food, money, cloth, resources required for living?

vacri 9y ago
Interesting, the variations in explaining this stuff away. Here are you saying "this labour is just part of being a family in Africa", and upthread there's someone saying "if children didn't have these jobs, they'd be forced into prostitution". > When parents know that there are some dangerous chemicals, they would not involve their children. I've seen first-hand, here in a first-world country, people with engineering degrees working in manufacturing with dangerous chemicals refuse to bother putting on safety gear. Hell, the whole OH&S industry has trouble getting employees to act safely, not just employers.

kobeya 9y ago

I'm glad they have a job. Their families probably need it very much. I hope that their hard work allows the next generation of Congolese to live in greater prosperity.

teekert 9y ago
If they survive, remain fertile and if their backs even allow them to pick up their own children. And if they can break the circle of "it's accepted kids should work becuase I did it too". A lot of ifs.
- deleted 9y ago
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grecy 9y ago
I have seen the impact of mines like this first hand in many third world countries. It is not what you think. The people work horrendous hours for a tiny amount of money - maybe 50 cents per day. At the end of the day they need to pay for food (no time to grow it) and pay for people to do things like make their shelter, clothes and transport (no time to do it for themselves). And so they have zero money left. They also work in horrible conditions and have a life expectancy of ~40. In many countries (Cameroon, Bolivia, Ivory Coast, Senegal, etc. etc.) I have seen where this crosses a line, and the locals simply choose not to work and just go back to growing their own food etc. Often they are happier and better off. Yes, this forces the wages to go up a tiny fraction, but in reality it is almost nothing, because there are always more naive country-folk coming in who think (as you do) "having a job is great" and they will "provide for their families" etc. By the time they figure out the whole thing is a terrible scam and quit, they already live in a slum in the city and can't go back. They are trapped. They probably even owe the mine some money or live in housing provided by the mine, so they are literally owned. Your idealized view of Capitalism is plain wrong. It does not happen like that in countries that do not have strict labor laws. (and even then, I would argue that many in the USA are working-slaves) Read Grapes of Wrath if you have not, it does a fantastic job of illustrating how people become trapped in extremely low-paying jobs with little to no choice.

gwenzek 9y ago

I don't know what makes me most sick : That a profitable business like smartphone making rely on child labor Or that people are using 900$ phones to explain that those children should be happy to have a 1p/day job. Free market surely doesn't apply to starving 7 years old. What are the alternative they know about? Who brought them to the mine? What the difference between that and slavery? Is slavery allowed because "they could end up as prostitute"? As Congo owns a big proportion of Cobalt they should be able to hire "adults" to do the work and pay them more. Given they have any incentive to do so, which they currently don't.

Torai 9y ago
No, the main actors involved have no incentive in doing so. http://projectcensored.org/19-american-companies-exploit-the-congo/ http://projectcensored.org/19-american-companies-exploit-the... > Historically, the U.S. government identified sources of materials in Third World countries, and then encouraged U.S. corporations to invest in and facilitate their production. Dating back to the mid-1960s, the U.S. government literally installed the dictatorship of Mobutu Sese Seko, which gave U.S. corporations access to the Congo’s minerals for more than 30 years. However, over the years Mobutu began to limit access by Western corporations, and to control the distribution of resources. In 1998, U.S. military-trained leaders of Rwanda and Uganda invaded the mineral-rich areas of the Congo. The invaders installed illegal colonial-style governments which continue to receive millions of dollars in arms and military training from the United States. Our government and a $5 million Citibank loan maintains the rebel presence in the Congo. Their control of mineral rich areas allows western corporations, such as American Mineral Fields, to illegally mine. Rwandan and Ugandan control over this area is beneficial for both governments and for the corporations that continue to exploit the Congo’s natural wealth.
- fil_a_del_fee_a 9y ago
  This should be the top comment. Nearly all of the problems in the world revolve around US installed dictators, financed by US banks, lobbied by US corporations.
  - 9y ago

JoeAltmaier 9y ago

Much of the angst in this thread are the first-world confused sort: "Why don't they just eat cake?" Its a hard world. You don't solve child-labor by simply firing the children. There has to be a whole social net to catch unemployed children, feed them and give them schooling. I worked all my young life, in Iowa, on a farm. One of the most dangerous jobs in America according to the actuarials. No lasting damage to me, though not all my cohort actually survived unscathed into adulthood. Heck, half my fathers' generation had nicknames like 'lefty' and 'stub'. Should working children on farms in Iowa be banned? Had it happened when I was young, half the family farms would have gone under. Its not some academic third-world issue. You ate that food we produced. And at the time, it wasn't going to be produced any other way.

guscost 9y ago
This debate seems focused entirely on ethics, but I posted the story because: 1. It's important to call out injustice and fight for what we can improve in our own communities, but it's also important to remember that this is the day to day reality for many people. We should reflect on our lives every so often and feel lucky, because it's healthy if for no other reason. 2. When we measure value and progress using dollars and technology, and we only pay attention to the things in front of us, there is collateral damage. If you're on a blind mission to make computers affordable to everyone, or to compete with hydrocarbon and fission energy on price, this is one effect.
albertgoeswoof 9y ago
I really dislike the anti-"academic" viewpoint of this comment. It is a issue that has been solved countless times before and applying academic analyses are exactly what's needed to resolve this. > Should working children on farms in Iowa be banned? Had it happened when I was young, half the family farms would have gone under. probably yes. If you can't support a business without relying on child labour, it's not much of a business. I'm guessing this was around 20-40 years ago, during which time food production boomed across america and food prices plummeted. So yes, the food would have been produced regardless, you and your peers would have had more time to spend on education and the net personal and economic benefits would have been positive. If you took the children out of the mines the cobalt would still get mined. The owners would find technology and process efficiencies to stay price competitive, if those don't exist then the price of mobile phones should go up. These parents are no different to those in developed countries and would want what's best for their children, if they had the choice - so that safety net would get added.

ilaksh 9y ago

Look up the admitted history of US intervention in the Congo and nearby countries. We created a messed up economic and political situation deliberately with military/intelligence tactics so that mining companies could more profitably exploit those countries. If we had not used strong arm tactics then they would be charging much more for the minerals and would have a good chance of creating a healthy economy.

gridit 9y ago

The work of a scholar I follow has covers this topic a little. Chris Blattman recently co-wrote an op-ed [0] about his data covering sweatshops in Ethiopia. They found that it wasn't always so clear that these dangerous industrial jobs lifted people out of poverty. In a really neat trial, they went to factory owners and randomized the acceptance for job applicants, tracking the outcomes of people who found employment elsewhere. Chris originally made his name studying the lives of former child soldiers in Uganda. Recommend his mostly-professional twitter feed [1] [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/27/opinion/do-sweatshops-lift-workers-out-of-poverty.html?_r=1 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/27/opinion/do-sweatshops-lif... [1] https://twitter.com/cblatts https://twitter.com/cblatts

jlebrech 9y ago

what if someone built a coding farm instead of mines, people would still complain because it's taking advantage of them but isn't progress the best way to elevate them?

Vinnl 9y ago

If anyone's interested, there's a brand of phones that's actively trying to change this: https://www.fairphone.com/en/ https://www.fairphone.com/en/ Contrary to other brands, they can actually try to fix it because they can also admit that this is an issue with their first two phones: because they're an awareness campaign as well, because they're documenting what issues they encounter and why it's so difficult, and because they want to be the trailblazer that figures out how to improve this situation, so other brands can copy their model.