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I am surprised how big this 'manifesto' got. Is it really that big of a deal that it a) got all the press that it got and b) that it required a personal condemn

I am surprised how big this 'manifesto' got. Is it really that big of a deal that it a) got all the press that it got and b) that it required a personal condemnation from "Head of Diversity" and the CEO - who will now hold a town-hall to, I guess, denounce it even more? The entire thing seems like a big nothing-burger from every side.

ocdtrekkie 9y ago
Consider that Google is currently facing a wage discrimination case from the US Department of Labor, so they're likely in the mood to go above and beyond to distance themselves from the author's attitudes.
ucaetano 9y ago
> I am surprised how big this 'manifesto' got. Is it really that big of a deal that it I'd guess that you feel that way because you're not affected by the issues discussed in the essay. I've been there myself, it takes a lot of time and effort to understand the real impact of something that doesn't impact yourself. Also, please don't think that I'm judging you or saying that you're a bad person because of it. We all share the same difficulties, and that doesn't make us better or worse, just humans. If I had a superpower, it would be making people see the world through other people's eyes.
- 52-6F-62 9y ago
  You don't need a superpower, just a super computer to design the ultimate weapon for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_in_The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy#Point_of_View_Gun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_in_The_Hitchhiker%2...
- macspoofing 9y ago
  >I'd guess that you feel that way because you're not affected by the issues discussed in the essay. I don't work at Google, so I'm not. The manifesto itself is controversial in that if you poll the plurality of the population or employees of Google on whether they agree with some or all of it, you won't have consensus, I'm sure of it. >I've been there myself, it takes a lot of time and effort to understand the real impact of something that doesn't impact yourself. Yeah, thanks for the condescension - just because I haven't reached the same conclusion must mean I haven't taken "time and effort to understand the real impact of something that doesn't impact yourself". >Also, please don't think that I'm judging you or saying that you're a bad person because of it. Uh huh. >If I had a superpower, it would be making people see the world through other people's eyes. Why don't you try making an effort sometime.
  - MBCook 9y ago
    I think what the GP meant is that if you're a young white guy this all seems a bit accedemic because your job isn't in direct question. Perhaps it would be harder to get hired in the future. If you're in a minority being questioned (women here, could be a racial group, age range, etc) people are directly questioning your ability and implying you aren't fit for your job. It looks like a much more personal attack. So they're a lot more incentivised share/discuss it.
    - macspoofing 9y ago
      >I think what the GP meant is that if you're a young white guy I know what he meant. I know what you mean as well. This isn't a substantive conversation on the issue. You and OP are not putting forward a cogent argument to support a position. You're making an appeal to emotion and valuing an opinion based on the skin color and gender of the person that argued it - not on its own merits. >It looks like a much more personal attack. And what does what you are doing look like to you?
      - MBCook 9y ago
        I wasn't trying to put a position forward, only explain why some people felt so strongly about it being discussed/shared. > And what does what you are doing look like to you? From your comment I thought you didn't understand the parent so I tried to help by trying to explain it differently. I was trying to help clear up possible confusion. Does what I posted look like advocacy to you? I honestly didn't mean it that way.
        macspoofing 9y ago
        >I wasn't trying to put a position forward, only explain why some people felt so strongly about it being discussed/shared. I understand exactly what he's saying. I wasn't born yesterday. I reject the notion that policy is not up for debate if you're not the right gender or skin color. I reject the notion that if you don't have the right skin color or gender you cannot put forward good arguments for or against. >From your comment I thought you didn't understand the parent so I tried to help by trying to explain it differently. OP was simply patronizing when they wrote: "I've been there myself, it takes a lot of time and effort to understand the real impact of something that doesn't impact yourself". That you don't see how condescending, narrow-minded, and patronizing that kind of statement is, is your blind-spot.
virgil_disgr4ce 9y ago
Ask some women developers about their experiences (as many as possible). Even if this particular person/memo/fracas is overblown, it has obviously become an avatar for the issue at large: discrimination and sexism. I've been seeing the stories from my software dev friends who happen to be women, and it's shocking that the same dumb shit is happening in 2017. "Wow, YOU'RE a developer?" "Hey, will she sit next to me?" etc etc etc etc. So the memo strikes a nerve. That doesn't make it right or wrong, I'm not saying his being fired is this or that. What I'm saying is that it's not nothing: a lot of human beings who happen to be women and who happen to be software developers have been trying to fight these insane gender stereotypes that somehow are still being perpetuated.
avaer 9y ago
It gets the clicks, shares, and comments. The incentives are stacked for both the social and traditional media to ride the outrage straight to the bank. And Google has no choice but to clean up the mess with the right signals. I don't think concern over diversity or sexism (which deserves its own calm debate) is what's driving this "nothing burger" story.
gbarc888 9y ago
It went viral within google. I think it surfaced a lot of repressed things that people were thinking but afraid to say -- maybe some faction of googlers believed that there were silent sexists within the company, and this validated that belief. Maybe another faction of googlers believed that they were reverse-discriminated against, and this validated THEIR belief as well. It is unfortunate that it took this memo to expose what a lot of people were previously afraid to say (from BOTH sides)
- tudorconstantin 9y ago
  And firing him won't make it easier for them to speak in the future either
- unethical_ban 9y ago
  This proves a point that suppressing dissent helps grow divides we all know exist, without helping fix it.
canoebuilder 9y ago
I am surprised how big this 'manifesto' got. Imagine how surreal this must be for Damore. In regards to the explosive nature of this episode, I think it is indicative of the people who seem to be going progressively more insane's realization that their little social engineering experiments curry no favor in the halls of reality and their misguided efforts are rapidly being washed out to the sea of history while the scattered sand from their tantrums is being transformed by the tide into a nice, orderly and peaceful beach for those of us in the reality-based community to enjoy.
- macspoofing 9y ago
  >Imagine how surreal this must be for Damore. I'm not 100% convinced that he didn't expect this. Some of the points he raised are valid and people should be able to agree to disagree. But the points about biological differences being responsible for women not being interested in STEM are controversial. I don't think Science is there on that - so raising them in this kind of a manifesto is inflammatory.
  - onli 9y ago
    If you want to see to which points science does have something to say, you might be interested in watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n691pLhQBkw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n691pLhQBkw. This presentation by Steven Pinker got posted yesterday in one of the other comment threads, and I found it to be an excellent pre-existing discussion of the merits of the memo.
daxorid 9y ago
It's not that it's a "big deal". It's that any public dissenters from the secular religion of Progressivism must be humiliated and destroyed, publicly. This is designed to ensure that any other employees who may blaspheme in the future are strongly discouraged from opening their filthy, heretical mouths. This is also nothing new: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session

ocdtrekkie 9y ago

Consider that Google is currently facing a wage discrimination case from the US Department of Labor, so they're likely in the mood to go above and beyond to distance themselves from the author's attitudes.

ucaetano 9y ago

> I am surprised how big this 'manifesto' got. Is it really that big of a deal that it I'd guess that you feel that way because you're not affected by the issues discussed in the essay. I've been there myself, it takes a lot of time and effort to understand the real impact of something that doesn't impact yourself. Also, please don't think that I'm judging you or saying that you're a bad person because of it. We all share the same difficulties, and that doesn't make us better or worse, just humans. If I had a superpower, it would be making people see the world through other people's eyes.

52-6F-62 9y ago
You don't need a superpower, just a super computer to design the ultimate weapon for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_in_The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy#Point_of_View_Gun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_in_The_Hitchhiker%2...
macspoofing 9y ago
>I'd guess that you feel that way because you're not affected by the issues discussed in the essay. I don't work at Google, so I'm not. The manifesto itself is controversial in that if you poll the plurality of the population or employees of Google on whether they agree with some or all of it, you won't have consensus, I'm sure of it. >I've been there myself, it takes a lot of time and effort to understand the real impact of something that doesn't impact yourself. Yeah, thanks for the condescension - just because I haven't reached the same conclusion must mean I haven't taken "time and effort to understand the real impact of something that doesn't impact yourself". >Also, please don't think that I'm judging you or saying that you're a bad person because of it. Uh huh. >If I had a superpower, it would be making people see the world through other people's eyes. Why don't you try making an effort sometime.
- MBCook 9y ago
  I think what the GP meant is that if you're a young white guy this all seems a bit accedemic because your job isn't in direct question. Perhaps it would be harder to get hired in the future. If you're in a minority being questioned (women here, could be a racial group, age range, etc) people are directly questioning your ability and implying you aren't fit for your job. It looks like a much more personal attack. So they're a lot more incentivised share/discuss it.
  - macspoofing 9y ago
    >I think what the GP meant is that if you're a young white guy I know what he meant. I know what you mean as well. This isn't a substantive conversation on the issue. You and OP are not putting forward a cogent argument to support a position. You're making an appeal to emotion and valuing an opinion based on the skin color and gender of the person that argued it - not on its own merits. >It looks like a much more personal attack. And what does what you are doing look like to you?
    - MBCook 9y ago
      I wasn't trying to put a position forward, only explain why some people felt so strongly about it being discussed/shared. > And what does what you are doing look like to you? From your comment I thought you didn't understand the parent so I tried to help by trying to explain it differently. I was trying to help clear up possible confusion. Does what I posted look like advocacy to you? I honestly didn't mean it that way.
      - macspoofing 9y ago
        >I wasn't trying to put a position forward, only explain why some people felt so strongly about it being discussed/shared. I understand exactly what he's saying. I wasn't born yesterday. I reject the notion that policy is not up for debate if you're not the right gender or skin color. I reject the notion that if you don't have the right skin color or gender you cannot put forward good arguments for or against. >From your comment I thought you didn't understand the parent so I tried to help by trying to explain it differently. OP was simply patronizing when they wrote: "I've been there myself, it takes a lot of time and effort to understand the real impact of something that doesn't impact yourself". That you don't see how condescending, narrow-minded, and patronizing that kind of statement is, is your blind-spot.

virgil_disgr4ce 9y ago

Ask some women developers about their experiences (as many as possible). Even if this particular person/memo/fracas is overblown, it has obviously become an avatar for the issue at large: discrimination and sexism. I've been seeing the stories from my software dev friends who happen to be women, and it's shocking that the same dumb shit is happening in 2017. "Wow, YOU'RE a developer?" "Hey, will she sit next to me?" etc etc etc etc. So the memo strikes a nerve. That doesn't make it right or wrong, I'm not saying his being fired is this or that. What I'm saying is that it's not nothing: a lot of human beings who happen to be women and who happen to be software developers have been trying to fight these insane gender stereotypes that somehow are still being perpetuated.

avaer 9y ago

It gets the clicks, shares, and comments. The incentives are stacked for both the social and traditional media to ride the outrage straight to the bank. And Google has no choice but to clean up the mess with the right signals. I don't think concern over diversity or sexism (which deserves its own calm debate) is what's driving this "nothing burger" story.

gbarc888 9y ago

It went viral within google. I think it surfaced a lot of repressed things that people were thinking but afraid to say -- maybe some faction of googlers believed that there were silent sexists within the company, and this validated that belief. Maybe another faction of googlers believed that they were reverse-discriminated against, and this validated THEIR belief as well. It is unfortunate that it took this memo to expose what a lot of people were previously afraid to say (from BOTH sides)

tudorconstantin 9y ago
And firing him won't make it easier for them to speak in the future either
unethical_ban 9y ago
This proves a point that suppressing dissent helps grow divides we all know exist, without helping fix it.

canoebuilder 9y ago

I am surprised how big this 'manifesto' got. Imagine how surreal this must be for Damore. In regards to the explosive nature of this episode, I think it is indicative of the people who seem to be going progressively more insane's realization that their little social engineering experiments curry no favor in the halls of reality and their misguided efforts are rapidly being washed out to the sea of history while the scattered sand from their tantrums is being transformed by the tide into a nice, orderly and peaceful beach for those of us in the reality-based community to enjoy.

macspoofing 9y ago
>Imagine how surreal this must be for Damore. I'm not 100% convinced that he didn't expect this. Some of the points he raised are valid and people should be able to agree to disagree. But the points about biological differences being responsible for women not being interested in STEM are controversial. I don't think Science is there on that - so raising them in this kind of a manifesto is inflammatory.
- onli 9y ago
  If you want to see to which points science does have something to say, you might be interested in watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n691pLhQBkw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n691pLhQBkw. This presentation by Steven Pinker got posted yesterday in one of the other comment threads, and I found it to be an excellent pre-existing discussion of the merits of the memo.

daxorid 9y ago

It's not that it's a "big deal". It's that any public dissenters from the secular religion of Progressivism must be humiliated and destroyed, publicly. This is designed to ensure that any other employees who may blaspheme in the future are strongly discouraged from opening their filthy, heretical mouths. This is also nothing new: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session