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Or a bet on hybrids. Hybrids enable new types of engines that for instance operate at constant rate or that are under-powered for acceleration from a stop or g

Or a bet on hybrids. Hybrids enable new types of engines that for instance operate at constant rate or that are under-powered for acceleration from a stop or going uphill.

mtgx 9y ago
I don't think hybrids have any future except in the heaviest of vehicles, where batteries won't make sense for another few decades. We're already seeing companies being interested in making battery-only buses, tractors, semis, and even airplanes. Not all models of those types of vehicles may work with batteries, but it's a sign of what the future could bring.
- komali2 9y ago
  Total individual perspective here, but my dad took me on his worksite like 15 years ago to see the big super gorram awesome trucks (seriously those things are HUGE). When I asked about the engines, he said the trucks had massive diesel generators that powered motors, that in turn powered the wheels and hydraulics. So in a way, lots of construction equipment has kind of already been "hybrid."
  - ClassyJacket 9y ago
    I believe that's also how diesel trains work.
    - pkulak 9y ago
      And submarines.
  - fnj 9y ago
    An electric power transmission is hardly hybrid. You just have two extra conversions in your transmission, mechanical to electric and electric back to mechanical.
    - jhayward 9y ago
      The diesel-electric system used in Locomotives and heavy off-road mining trucks are literally examples of series hybrids. You may be objecting to ththe lack of battery storage, which isn't useful in those applications.
- bluGill 9y ago
  battery only buses make sense because the bug needs to run over rush hour and then can sit all do to charge. Battery operated tractors do not make sense without vastly better batteries because a tractor needs to run for 16 hours at max power (500hp). Sustaining 400000 kw for 16 hours is not easy. For semis and airplanes you need to consider your use: for short in town loads/short flights batteries can work, for longer distances we don't have the battery technology today to make it work. Someone once told me battery technology has 2-3 more doubling left and then we hit chemical limits and cannot get more out of them. If this is correct batteries can never do the longer distances, but I don't know if it is correct.
  - petre 9y ago
    > battery technology has 2-3 more doubling left and then we hit chemical limits and cannot get more out of them We still have energy cells which are essentially bateries that you charge by pouring in some fluids just like in a regular car. However the tech is not mature enough yet.
- garretraziel 9y ago
  While I don't believe hybrids will survive in the long run, I think that hybrids (and plug-in hybrids specifically) will play important role in transition period of passenger cars (use EV in cities, use gasoline if you want to go >100 km, refuel whenever you want). A have Toyota Auris with hybrid synergy drive and even though it has really small battery (so it costs less than $25000 including tax), I am able to ride through small town using EV mode only and then use ICE between towns. My mileage is 4.4 l/100 km which is ~53.5 miles per gallon and I'm driving in city most of the time.
cmrdporcupine 9y ago
I bet on plugin hybrids, specifically ones with large batteries. This seems to be an unpopular opinion, but I think the Voltec drivetrain shows what's possible here. Pure EV purists dislike PHEVs because they have the complexity of an ICE car + an EV car, but I think there's some serious advantages. Like you say, Atkinson cycle for electricity generation for when the battery drains beyond smaller commute ranges. Something like this new Mazda engine in that context would make quite a bit of sense for overall fuel efficiency.
- kbenson 9y ago
  > Pure EV purists dislike PHEVs because they have the complexity of an ICE car + an EV car, but I think there's some serious advantages. I would imagine most the complaints are for when the ICE actually powers a drivetrain. If it's essentially a generator to keep the batteries from depleting too far, that's not much extra complexity it all. Have a problem with the generator? Just swap it out with a new or rebuilt one from some vendor (if designed well such that you can do so). I'm seeing that a Tesla uses about 300 Watts a mile @ 55 Mph.[1] Honda seems to have generators much more than capable of supplying that need for under $1000.[2] I'm not familiar enough with electric systems to know how accurate that assessment is (whether the voltage requirements complicate it, for example), but that seems promising. Then again, I imagine if it was really that easy, Tesla would have put a generator charge hookup and exhaust ventilation capabilities in the trunk already. Edit: Hmm, I'm definitely missing something, since the $1000 generator says it can go 8.1 hours on a gallon of gas, and it doesn't seem likely for that to translate into powering a Tesla for 8 hours of travel. 1: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/average-wattage-for-driving-at-55mph-or-in-town.11240/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/average-wattage-for-... 2: https://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/selecting-a-generator https://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/selecting-a-gene...
  - fnj 9y ago
    > a Tesla uses about 300 Watts a mile @ 55 Mph This is nonsense. The dimensions are wrong. Watts are instantaneous power. To be meaningful, you would have to give either kWh/h or kWh per mile or km. Besides that 300 W is only 0.4 hp. Sorry, but that is just not credible.
usrusr 9y ago
From what I read about HCCI engines (the brand-neutral name for the general engine concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homogeneous_charge_compression_ignition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homogeneous_charge_compression... ) I suspect that they are not easily operated over a power band as wide as conventional gasoline or diesel engines. If that is the tradeoff, they could be a perfect match for hybrids.

Or a bet on hybrids. Hybrids enable new types of engines that for instance operate at constant rate or that are under-powered for acceleration from a stop or going uphill.

mtgx 9y ago

I don't think hybrids have any future except in the heaviest of vehicles, where batteries won't make sense for another few decades. We're already seeing companies being interested in making battery-only buses, tractors, semis, and even airplanes. Not all models of those types of vehicles may work with batteries, but it's a sign of what the future could bring.

komali2 9y ago
Total individual perspective here, but my dad took me on his worksite like 15 years ago to see the big super gorram awesome trucks (seriously those things are HUGE). When I asked about the engines, he said the trucks had massive diesel generators that powered motors, that in turn powered the wheels and hydraulics. So in a way, lots of construction equipment has kind of already been "hybrid."
- ClassyJacket 9y ago
  I believe that's also how diesel trains work.
  - pkulak 9y ago
    And submarines.
- fnj 9y ago
  An electric power transmission is hardly hybrid. You just have two extra conversions in your transmission, mechanical to electric and electric back to mechanical.
  - jhayward 9y ago
    The diesel-electric system used in Locomotives and heavy off-road mining trucks are literally examples of series hybrids. You may be objecting to ththe lack of battery storage, which isn't useful in those applications.
bluGill 9y ago
battery only buses make sense because the bug needs to run over rush hour and then can sit all do to charge. Battery operated tractors do not make sense without vastly better batteries because a tractor needs to run for 16 hours at max power (500hp). Sustaining 400000 kw for 16 hours is not easy. For semis and airplanes you need to consider your use: for short in town loads/short flights batteries can work, for longer distances we don't have the battery technology today to make it work. Someone once told me battery technology has 2-3 more doubling left and then we hit chemical limits and cannot get more out of them. If this is correct batteries can never do the longer distances, but I don't know if it is correct.
- petre 9y ago
  > battery technology has 2-3 more doubling left and then we hit chemical limits and cannot get more out of them We still have energy cells which are essentially bateries that you charge by pouring in some fluids just like in a regular car. However the tech is not mature enough yet.
garretraziel 9y ago
While I don't believe hybrids will survive in the long run, I think that hybrids (and plug-in hybrids specifically) will play important role in transition period of passenger cars (use EV in cities, use gasoline if you want to go >100 km, refuel whenever you want). A have Toyota Auris with hybrid synergy drive and even though it has really small battery (so it costs less than $25000 including tax), I am able to ride through small town using EV mode only and then use ICE between towns. My mileage is 4.4 l/100 km which is ~53.5 miles per gallon and I'm driving in city most of the time.

cmrdporcupine 9y ago

I bet on plugin hybrids, specifically ones with large batteries. This seems to be an unpopular opinion, but I think the Voltec drivetrain shows what's possible here. Pure EV purists dislike PHEVs because they have the complexity of an ICE car + an EV car, but I think there's some serious advantages. Like you say, Atkinson cycle for electricity generation for when the battery drains beyond smaller commute ranges. Something like this new Mazda engine in that context would make quite a bit of sense for overall fuel efficiency.

kbenson 9y ago
> Pure EV purists dislike PHEVs because they have the complexity of an ICE car + an EV car, but I think there's some serious advantages. I would imagine most the complaints are for when the ICE actually powers a drivetrain. If it's essentially a generator to keep the batteries from depleting too far, that's not much extra complexity it all. Have a problem with the generator? Just swap it out with a new or rebuilt one from some vendor (if designed well such that you can do so). I'm seeing that a Tesla uses about 300 Watts a mile @ 55 Mph.[1] Honda seems to have generators much more than capable of supplying that need for under $1000.[2] I'm not familiar enough with electric systems to know how accurate that assessment is (whether the voltage requirements complicate it, for example), but that seems promising. Then again, I imagine if it was really that easy, Tesla would have put a generator charge hookup and exhaust ventilation capabilities in the trunk already. Edit: Hmm, I'm definitely missing something, since the $1000 generator says it can go 8.1 hours on a gallon of gas, and it doesn't seem likely for that to translate into powering a Tesla for 8 hours of travel. 1: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/average-wattage-for-driving-at-55mph-or-in-town.11240/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/average-wattage-for-... 2: https://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/selecting-a-generator https://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/selecting-a-gene...
- fnj 9y ago
  > a Tesla uses about 300 Watts a mile @ 55 Mph This is nonsense. The dimensions are wrong. Watts are instantaneous power. To be meaningful, you would have to give either kWh/h or kWh per mile or km. Besides that 300 W is only 0.4 hp. Sorry, but that is just not credible.

usrusr 9y ago

From what I read about HCCI engines (the brand-neutral name for the general engine concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homogeneous_charge_compression_ignition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homogeneous_charge_compression... ) I suspect that they are not easily operated over a power band as wide as conventional gasoline or diesel engines. If that is the tradeoff, they could be a perfect match for hybrids.