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Irish vet fails oral English test needed to stay in Australia
- lawless123 9y agoSeems a bit mad to make a private company the gatekeeper.
- jamiethompson 9y agoThat kind of thing is unfortunately the norm here in the UK too.
- cannonpr 9y agoCould you explain that ? The UK citizenship authority accepts most major accredited english language certifications and or a university degree as proof of english language proficiency. The only tests are for lay of the land/law/society, not language proficiency.
- SeanDav 9y ago> "The only tests are for lay of the land/law/society, not language proficiency." Not sure what your sources are, but as part of UK Citizen application, you absolutely have to do English language proficiency tests in some circumstances. The Pearson test is one of the recognised tests.
- cannonpr 9y agoI said that they accept a very wide range of certifications and you can pretty much select the one that suits you, this is my source: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-on-applying-for-uk-visa-approved-english-language-tests https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-on-apply... In addition to my self having gone through the Citizenship process recently. Additionally several native nationalities have an exception: https://www.gov.uk/english-language/exemptions https://www.gov.uk/english-language/exemptions
- SeanDav 9y agoI thought it was clear (since I quoted it) that I was responding to the claim that there are no English language proficiency tests as part of the UK Citizenship tests as not being correct. In some circumstances there are (e.g. Your degree is not in English and you are not from a recognized English speaking country). Not sure what is contentious about that statement of fact?
- dukky 9y agoI believe cannonpr meant that no English language proficiency tests were required to be taken as part of the citizenship tests, as they accept a large number of qualifications (and thus only need to take the test if you do not hold one of these qualifications). So while you might have to take a test, it is separate from the UK citizenship tests.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Swinx43 9y agoFor immigration purposes you will definitely need to do an English language test. A lot of these tests, language and otherwise, are actually done at private companies. As long as they are accredited with the government they can administer it.
- adrianratnapala 9y agoI once heard of an American who's degree from Princeton didn't count, because the certificate was in Latin.
- jamiethompson 9y agoI meant important public services being farmed out to incompetent private suppliers is the norm.
- ganeshkrishnan 9y agoI have no idea why this news is titled "Computer says no". For the speaking part it's humans evaluating the results. That said you are right on point about private company being the gatekeeper. IELTS raised the fees more than 300% in the last few years. They now cost around $330 per exam and they always invariably fail you the first time around. You are allowed to take as many tests as you need. Conveniently you pass after a few tries. I know competent English teachers who grew up in Australia failing this test few times. And equally I know very few migrants from third world countries passing the test even if English is their first language. It's more of a blatant money making scheme than anything else and quite obviously the department of immigration must charge IELTS for allowing it to be one of the English examiner. Just follow the money and you have all the answers.
- chrisseaton 9y ago> For the speaking part it's humans evaluating the results That's not what I understood from the article, which says "uses voice recognition technology to test speaking ability, with audio recordings then marked by a “scoring engine”" "Other test providers have said they use human assessors to determine if people are competent speakers of English" Both of those imply there aren't humans evaluating the results at this test provider. That's the entire point of the article.
- SmallDeadGuy 9y ago> it is the only one that uses voice recognition technology to test speaking ability > Other test providers have said they use human assessors No, the article clearly states that the test in question used voice recognition on a computer. Other companies use human evaluations, however this one didn't.
- ganeshkrishnan 9y agoThis is what I disagreed with. Afaik, everything else is marked by computers but voice was always handled by humans. Unless this is something very recent in which case I am not sure how computers can handle accents or ambiguous words. Even google's voice to text has so many errors on untrained voice models
- danieltillett 9y agoWhat I don't understand is why vets are considered in short supply in Australia. Graduates vets out of uni struggle to get jobs here.
- chongli 9y agoWhat kind of vets? Livestock or household pet? I could imagine a glut of graduates who refuse to work on farms, creating a shortage there but an oversupply in household pet vet practices.
- danieltillett 9y agoI am sure there are some sub-specialities that are in demand (I am not sure if equine vets are one), but the selection is not at the the speciality level, but at the general level where there is a massive oversupply.
- roel_v 9y ago'Hairdresser' is also considered to be in short supply. Here's a list of all occupations (in case you didn't know): https://www.nwivisas.com/nwi-blog/australia/australian-skilled-occupation-list-2017-2018/ https://www.nwivisas.com/nwi-blog/australia/australian-skill... . This list had a bunch of occupations removed earlier this year; bad news for everybody looking to emigrate to Oz to take up a lucrative career in picture framing, because "Picture Framer" is no longer eligible for a 457 visa. I realize that your actual remark is to the 'why' of some professions being on this list, I'm just pointing the above out for non-Australians like myself who might be amused by these things when seeing them for the first time, like I was.
- magicbuzz 9y agoChicken Farmers are in short supply apparently.
- danieltillett 9y agoChicken farmers are not in short supply. What is in short supply are people willing to work as chicken farmers for chicken feed (sorry for the pun).
- ainiriand 9y agoI live in Dublin and I can barely understand native Irish people either. I side with the computer.
- hudo 9y agosure, i'm also in Dublin, it's sometimes (well, often. I mean, always) difficult to understand them if they talk fast ... but it's the same case if I visit UK, or I guess any english dialect. I'm sure she could talk more slowly and clearly and computer would say yes.
- secfirstmd 9y agoHaha, I'm from and in Dublin and there are a number of culchie accents that I struggle with :). Parts of Kerry, the Islands, Northern Ireland etc.
- Mediterraneo10 9y ago"I live in Dublin and I can barely understand native Irish people either." People in Dublin itself are widely regarded to have a neutral-sounding, easily understandable English. Indeed, Dubliners are conspicuously prominent in ESL teaching around the world for that reason. It is when one gets out of Dublin that accents begin to be more challenging for people accustomed only to mainstream US or UK pronunciations.
- s_kilk 9y agoVery much depends. Some of the middle-class neighbourhoods produce a fairly neutral accent, but most dubliners speak in a very heavy accent, arguably one of the heaviest in the country.
- linker3000 9y agoYou've clearly not been to Cork [edit..] or Kerry!
- beilabs 9y ago"One of the first pieces of legislation passed in the new Federal Parliament was the Immigration Restriction Act. Now known as the infamous White Australia Policy it made it very difficult for Asians and Pacific Islanders to migrate to Australia. This Act stated that if a person wanted to migrate to Australia they had to be given a dictation test. The dictation test could be in any European language. So a person from China or Japan who wanted to live in Australia could be tested in one or all of French, Italian or English languages." Granted this was well over a hundred years ago however I feel that the Australian attitude to migrants is still quite unfriendly. They're making it more and more difficult to migrate there even if you have roots in the country especially if you are from a non English speaking country. Source: Am Irish and went through the Australian immigration process years ago.
- Mtinie 9y agoIn your opinion, are these policies bald attempts at keeping migrants from Asia-Pacific countries out of Australia or is there a deeper-seated historic animosity at play? Culturally, are the psychological scars of Australia's previous status as a British penal colony still manifested in public policy? I don't ask to be incendiary, but because I'm interested in the Second-Order Effects that stick with cultures over time, often in seemingly unrelated ways.
- jahnu 9y agoYeah. They've obviously made much progress but are still institutionally scared of non white immigrants. Very forward thinking on the issue of partners though. If one gets the visa the other does too with little or no fuss. Don't even have to be married. The country is, like any, full of contradictions.
- martalist 9y agoNot sure what you mean by "institutionally scared of non white immigrants". In 2014/15 the vast majority of immigrants were from Asia: https://www.border.gov.au/ReportsandPublications/Documents/statistics/2015-16-migration-programme-report.pdf https://www.border.gov.au/ReportsandPublications/Documents/s...
- grecy 9y agoI'm Australian and got very close to needing an English test to get Residency in Canada. I was getting residency because I was working as an Engineer and my company was sponsoring me. I have an Engineering degree from an English-speaking country (Australia), and had been working for the company for ~2 years, of course in English. Both of those things counted for nothing. I would have had to to fly ~2500km, pay for the tests etc. (I was living in Northern Canada.. weekend trips to Alaska means driving due South) I spoke to multiple people on the phone and in person (in English) and not a single one was able in any way to do anything to intervene. There was no possibility of me doing the test over skype video chat to avoid the expensive flight Rules are rules, don't dare to interpret their intent. This applies doubly when dealing with Immigration. Canada have now tightened the rules significantly, and it's my understanding if I applied now, I would be forced to take that English test.
- morgo 9y agoAlso Australian in Canada. I sat the mandatory English test, with a number of others that were native speakers. It is a ~$300 test too.
- alacombe 9y agoFortunately, I got "in" before that, but still had to prove my proficiency in French... while being native French (from France) myself :-/
- thriftwy 9y agoFor me it seems like a conspiracy of immigration (in different countries) where whatever rules are passed down to them, they'll going to bend them to let as much ineligible people as possible while taking pride in rejecting obvious good fits. And then you would wonder why citizens distrust immigration to provide healthy addition to their society. Not unlike some professors who take an easy pass on dullards while throwing all their wrath at students with signs of self-learning. Those people are actively sabotaging the system they're part of.
- lawless123 9y ago>For me it seems like a conspiracy of immigration (in different countries) where whatever rules are passed down to them, they'll going to bend them to let as much ineligible people as possible while taking pride in rejecting obvious good fits I think you're just making things up.
- unwttng 9y agohttps://youtu.be/5FFRoYhTJQQ https://youtu.be/5FFRoYhTJQQ
- slindz 9y agoFor the curious: Comedic bit about voice activated elevators. In Scotland
- roel_v 9y agoReminds me of a Belgian guy who was in the papers a few years ago, who had to pass an 'integration test' before he could get Dutch citizenship. Part of that test is a language test (people from the north of Belgium, i.e. Flanders, speak Dutch - it's the same language as the one spoken in the Netherlands. So, like the woman in the OP, he had to take an exam on his mother tongue, and with much less of an accent than an Irish accent is as compared to the Queen's English). If you have a degree (even just a high school degree) from a Dutch language school, you're exempt, but this guy didn't so he wasn't (this exemption was put in to basically avoid situations like this, under the assumption that the vast majority of people would have a high school degree). Either way, he failed the test a few times; reason being that this 'integration test' doesn't just cover language skills, but also things like 'knowledge of Dutch society'. For example, you get 3 pictures of a front yard of a house, with varying degrees of clutter on them (like a children's bike and a garbage bin with the lid open). Question being: how are you supposed to maintain your yard, like in picture A, B or C? Most (Dutch) people I've given the test failed it because the questions are so ridiculous. It's quite lulzy actually. Well not for that Belgian guy I presume.
- cr1895 9y agoHang on now...I thought only non-EU people must do the inburgering nonsense? Or does it also apply to anyone who wants to get citizenship?
- zapt02 9y agoThe issue here is that whoever drafted the rules did not think to offer an easy way to appeal the results. If the person in the article could have just said "can I have a human do this next time" there wouldn't have been a problem. This is what happens when non-technical people that have too much faith in technology draft policies.
- afandian 9y ago"Pearson has categorically denied there is anything wrong with its computer-based test or the scoring engine trained to analyse candidates’ responses." Surely that lack of self-questioning makes them categorically unsuitable to do the job. By refusing to acknowledge that there's room for process improvement, that signals that they don't care about quality.
- verytrivial 9y agoThis is a story about how voice recognition has failed and should not have been used in this situation. I was very surprised to hear that this was even permitted a method for the outsourcing provider, but then again Australia has a poor and somehow still worsening relationship with immigration, so perhaps I'm more accurately "re-dissapointed" by this revelation (as an expat Australian).
- imglorp 9y agoIf this was the US, an unsatisfactory vendor would almost certainly be there because of some political crony situation. Sometimes merit has no bearing on goverment procurement.