7 ms·

> men felt exactly the same way about their job - but more women had the freedom to take action and leave the job. Is there a simple explanation of the year aw

by api 9y ago

> men felt exactly the same way about their job - but more women had the freedom to take action and leave the job. Is there a simple explanation of the year award trophy I can nominate you for? Maybe our field just sucks a bit more than we like to admit. Women find it easier to take the family route and possibly make a career change post child rearing, while poor Dilbert with his Y chromosome is stuck with the pointy haired boss. Maybe the gender gap problem is caused by a more universal set of problems that irritate everyone. Of course for women take all the problems of tech and add sexual harassment. Not only does the PHB waste your time and make dumb decisions and force you to implement them but then he comes over and rubs your shoulders and talks about how much fun the swinger lifestyle can be.

moron4hire 9y ago
I was probably first exposed to the concept of sexual harassment as a teenager, just before college. Clinton had just diddle an intern. Clarence Thomas was accused of it while he was up for Supreme Court confirmation. I remember a lot of apologia, "he got his signals crossed" or something like that. And that was my impression going forward. The "honest mistake" trope is not sexual harassment. Now that I know more about how the world works, that story was clearly a PR push to de-legitimize the complaints of both the particular people accusing these public figures at the time, and anyone who might try in the future. I very soon had a fast primer on what is real sexual harassment. One coworker at my first job out of college was constantly haranguing another. Overt sexual advances that were always met with "that's just <him>. It's just a joke." It made me uncomfortable just to watch it. I know it made her uncomfortable because she would lock herself in her office and cry at least once a week. I don't know why she confided in me about it. I begged her to file a complaint. She was probably right that it would do more harm than good. I complained to my own boss and got told I was too young to understand. I suppose I was too young to understand, but only because I had not yet reached the point where I rejected any authority figures who told me shit like "you're too young to understand" at 22 years old. The guy did this in the open, during project status meetings. This wasn't Uber or UploadVR or whatever other Silicon Valley brogrammer startup we're going to tsk-tsk "boys will be boys" and never actually do anything about. This was an established engineering firm, with a very strictly worded employee handbook, and an HR director that literally looked the other way. So I don't want to hear anything about it not being systemic. I've personally never found sexual talk of any nature in the office to be comfortable. I've had gay bosses hit on me. I've had straight bosses "jokingly" touch me inappropriately. I've had female bosses make jokes about my love life. Sat by while coworkers traded stories about sexual conquests. Even if the sexual advances are towards someone else, if they make you uncomfortable, it's still sexual harassment. But we've had this trope that it's some sort of attack on lonely men who take a risk on finding love. And I think that active misdirection has not only (obviously) harmed so many women, it's harmed quite a few men, too. Probably most of us, in some way. It's not "getting along with a woman at work and ask her out and she rejects you." It's about creating a hostile work environment. Anyone who can't tell the difference has got a serious problem. You do not have to put up with being made to feel uncomfortable like that at work.
- TruffleMuffin 9y ago
  I have a history in customer services, spent 7 years dealing with the general public on a returns desk. As a result, in a friendly setting I enter my swearing mode which I developed to cope to balance out having to be perfectly pleasant to extremely rude and unpleasant people 7 hours a day. This makes people uncomfortable sometimes and I have received complaints about it from management which made me feel uncomfortable as quite frankly, that is who I am. Co-workers routinely ask personal questions, expect small talk about details of their lives out of work. I find this uncomfortable to, but am forced to participate so I don't become seen as 'not a team player'. To be absolutely clear, I am not condoning the kind of behaviour you have experienced as something I consider to be ok. By the sound of it, it's certainly not. However, my point is that almost always its a matter of perspective, its not just sexual related topics that make people uncomfortable. For many of the individuals you have spoken about, their personal understanding of the situation could legitimately be that it was ok. Quite frankly, I just don't know what can be done to solve a problem so complex as individuals understanding matters in different ways.
  - moron4hire 9y ago
    It really isn't a complex problem. The "misunderstandings" trope is part of the system that allows it to continue. There is a huge difference between being rude to others and being asked to not be rude to others.
- kyberias 9y ago
  > Sat by while coworkers traded stories about sexual conquests. Even if the sexual advances are towards someone else, if they make you uncomfortable, it's still sexual harassment. Not to belittle your other experiences, but I never understood this. If you hear a conversation about sexual experiences and it makes you uncomfortable, I don't think it's immediately sexual _harassment_. I would probably feel uncomfortable listening to those kinds of talks too but I don't think I'm entitled to claim it's harassment just because I felt uncomfortable.
  - moron4hire 9y ago
ATsch 9y ago
What aligns with this would be the fact that women in developing nations are more likely to choose a career in technology[1]. An overlooked factor in why there are few women in technology might very well be that women feel less pressured to earn a high wage due to remaining housewife/working husband stereotypes. [1] https://erzaehlmirnix.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/unterschiede-mc3a4nner-frauen-interessen-91.jpg https://erzaehlmirnix.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/unterschie... (from the ROSE project, excuse the hotlinking)
jasonmp85 9y ago
> Women find it easier to take the family route and possibly make a career change post child rearing, while poor Dilbert with his Y chromosome is stuck with the pointy haired boss. Ah, yes… the smart man's burden.
vertex-four 9y ago
> Maybe our field just sucks a bit more than we like to admit. That would imply that men are lying when they tell us their field is perfect for them and women should just learn to fit in without changing any culture.
- endominus 9y ago
  Not necessarily. Self reported data is not renowned for its reliability. People often act self destructively or suboptimally. Incidence of burn out in tech is, AFAIK, much higher than any equivalent in other white collar careers. Tribal identification may blind some to endemic structural issues. "Lock in" to decisions causes the mind to value said decision more highly (skub/Robber's Cave study).
  - moron4hire 9y ago
    There's also a hazing culture in effect. "This is what I had to go through/I paid my dues" sort of thing. Maybe we can just stop paying harassment forward.
Zarath 9y ago
Shhh, don't tell everyone that "privilege" is a double-edged sword.
gcp 9y ago
Women find it easier to take the family route and possibly make a career change post child rearing According to the original article, this is only 1/3rd, so it doesn't go very far as an explanation.

by api 9y ago

moron4hire 9y ago

I was probably first exposed to the concept of sexual harassment as a teenager, just before college. Clinton had just diddle an intern. Clarence Thomas was accused of it while he was up for Supreme Court confirmation. I remember a lot of apologia, "he got his signals crossed" or something like that. And that was my impression going forward. The "honest mistake" trope is not sexual harassment. Now that I know more about how the world works, that story was clearly a PR push to de-legitimize the complaints of both the particular people accusing these public figures at the time, and anyone who might try in the future. I very soon had a fast primer on what is real sexual harassment. One coworker at my first job out of college was constantly haranguing another. Overt sexual advances that were always met with "that's just <him>. It's just a joke." It made me uncomfortable just to watch it. I know it made her uncomfortable because she would lock herself in her office and cry at least once a week. I don't know why she confided in me about it. I begged her to file a complaint. She was probably right that it would do more harm than good. I complained to my own boss and got told I was too young to understand. I suppose I was too young to understand, but only because I had not yet reached the point where I rejected any authority figures who told me shit like "you're too young to understand" at 22 years old. The guy did this in the open, during project status meetings. This wasn't Uber or UploadVR or whatever other Silicon Valley brogrammer startup we're going to tsk-tsk "boys will be boys" and never actually do anything about. This was an established engineering firm, with a very strictly worded employee handbook, and an HR director that literally looked the other way. So I don't want to hear anything about it not being systemic. I've personally never found sexual talk of any nature in the office to be comfortable. I've had gay bosses hit on me. I've had straight bosses "jokingly" touch me inappropriately. I've had female bosses make jokes about my love life. Sat by while coworkers traded stories about sexual conquests. Even if the sexual advances are towards someone else, if they make you uncomfortable, it's still sexual harassment. But we've had this trope that it's some sort of attack on lonely men who take a risk on finding love. And I think that active misdirection has not only (obviously) harmed so many women, it's harmed quite a few men, too. Probably most of us, in some way. It's not "getting along with a woman at work and ask her out and she rejects you." It's about creating a hostile work environment. Anyone who can't tell the difference has got a serious problem. You do not have to put up with being made to feel uncomfortable like that at work.

TruffleMuffin 9y ago
I have a history in customer services, spent 7 years dealing with the general public on a returns desk. As a result, in a friendly setting I enter my swearing mode which I developed to cope to balance out having to be perfectly pleasant to extremely rude and unpleasant people 7 hours a day. This makes people uncomfortable sometimes and I have received complaints about it from management which made me feel uncomfortable as quite frankly, that is who I am. Co-workers routinely ask personal questions, expect small talk about details of their lives out of work. I find this uncomfortable to, but am forced to participate so I don't become seen as 'not a team player'. To be absolutely clear, I am not condoning the kind of behaviour you have experienced as something I consider to be ok. By the sound of it, it's certainly not. However, my point is that almost always its a matter of perspective, its not just sexual related topics that make people uncomfortable. For many of the individuals you have spoken about, their personal understanding of the situation could legitimately be that it was ok. Quite frankly, I just don't know what can be done to solve a problem so complex as individuals understanding matters in different ways.
- moron4hire 9y ago
  It really isn't a complex problem. The "misunderstandings" trope is part of the system that allows it to continue. There is a huge difference between being rude to others and being asked to not be rude to others.
kyberias 9y ago
> Sat by while coworkers traded stories about sexual conquests. Even if the sexual advances are towards someone else, if they make you uncomfortable, it's still sexual harassment. Not to belittle your other experiences, but I never understood this. If you hear a conversation about sexual experiences and it makes you uncomfortable, I don't think it's immediately sexual _harassment_. I would probably feel uncomfortable listening to those kinds of talks too but I don't think I'm entitled to claim it's harassment just because I felt uncomfortable.
- moron4hire 9y ago

ATsch 9y ago

What aligns with this would be the fact that women in developing nations are more likely to choose a career in technology[1]. An overlooked factor in why there are few women in technology might very well be that women feel less pressured to earn a high wage due to remaining housewife/working husband stereotypes. [1] https://erzaehlmirnix.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/unterschiede-mc3a4nner-frauen-interessen-91.jpg https://erzaehlmirnix.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/unterschie... (from the ROSE project, excuse the hotlinking)

jasonmp85 9y ago

> Women find it easier to take the family route and possibly make a career change post child rearing, while poor Dilbert with his Y chromosome is stuck with the pointy haired boss. Ah, yes… the smart man's burden.

vertex-four 9y ago

> Maybe our field just sucks a bit more than we like to admit. That would imply that men are lying when they tell us their field is perfect for them and women should just learn to fit in without changing any culture.

endominus 9y ago
Not necessarily. Self reported data is not renowned for its reliability. People often act self destructively or suboptimally. Incidence of burn out in tech is, AFAIK, much higher than any equivalent in other white collar careers. Tribal identification may blind some to endemic structural issues. "Lock in" to decisions causes the mind to value said decision more highly (skub/Robber's Cave study).
- moron4hire 9y ago
  There's also a hazing culture in effect. "This is what I had to go through/I paid my dues" sort of thing. Maybe we can just stop paying harassment forward.

Zarath 9y ago

Shhh, don't tell everyone that "privilege" is a double-edged sword.

gcp 9y ago

Women find it easier to take the family route and possibly make a career change post child rearing According to the original article, this is only 1/3rd, so it doesn't go very far as an explanation.