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Out of curiosity, if his "manifesto" had talked about white privilege and how many of his white, male co-workers had, for their entire lives, been the beneficia

Out of curiosity, if his "manifesto" had talked about white privilege and how many of his white, male co-workers had, for their entire lives, been the beneficiaries of massive disparities in American society that led them to have an increased chance of becoming Googlers, and argued that we should work to ameliorate those disparities at all levels of society, including during the hiring process at Google, would you still call for his termination? Such a claim would, after all, be an insult to many of his coworkers, who might feel as if he believes they're only at Google because society lowered the bar for them. Personally I'd like it if people could make both arguments in a reasonable fashion and not jump immediately to outrage and calls for termination.

tunesmith 9y ago
Interesting question, but I don't think it is symmetrical because of the power dynamic.
- a_puppy 9y ago
  You're thinking of a men vs. women power dynamic. But that's not a realistic power dynamic, because neither men nor women act as a block. (For example, 44% of female voters in the 2016 election voted for Trump!) The actual power dynamic here is feminists vs. non-feminists, and at Google right now the feminists have a lot of power--as evidenced by the fact this guy got fired.
  - tunesmith 9y ago
    Men and women don't need to act as blocs for an asymmetrical power imbalance to exist.
  - Domenic_S 9y ago
    Not trying to be a smartass, I'm only commenting because I was genuinely confused for a moment -- the word is _bloc_ in this context. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bloc https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bloc
    - a_puppy 9y ago
      Thanks! I wasn't sure; I should have looked it up instead of guessing.
- josteink 9y ago
  He asked about your opinion on a principle, because many people prefer reasoned, principled policy over internet-fueled, hysterical mob rule. Dodging the question by saying you don't find the principle "interesting" when applied on the other end of the argument is effectively admitting that you know the principle is flawed.
  - tunesmith 9y ago
    What? I said interesting question. Not a not interesting question. And which principle? The scenario? Yes, I believe the scenario is flawed. Not sure why you are saying admitted. To be clearer, white privilege exists. Male privilege exists. That is a power dynamic over women and minorities, enjoyed by men and non-minorities. To deny those privileges exist increases the privilege. To deny that existing bias exists helps to increase the bias. To admit those privileges exist decreases the privilege. To admit that existing biases exist helps to decrease the bias. So, writing a manifesto (that admits white privilege) does not put white people into greater danger beneath those who enjoy the power dynamic over them (no one). But, writing a manifesto (that denies sexism) does put women into greater danger beneath those who enjoy the power dynamic over them (men). Is that clearer?
    - tomp 9y ago
      > Male privilege exists. That is a power dynamic over women This doesn't necessarily follow, because insofar as male privilege exists, so does female privilege (such as no draft, "women and children first", the "women are wonderful " effect and the fact that women represent the majority of the voting base), so it's really hard to say one sex is more privileged than the other, rather than just privileged differently.
      - tunesmith 9y ago
        Thanks for the comment, I intended it to implicitly come across that I was speaking about employment, where male privilege exceeds female privilege.
- LordHumungous 9y ago
  It is a little bit symmetrical though because white males are occasionally told they have had everything handed to them and they do find that infuriating to hear.
kromem 9y ago
Except his whole point was that only looking at averages and not considering the spread and distribution is insane. Should a son of a several-year unemployed coal miner be discriminated against because of his gender and race, just because other people with that same gender and race have done better than average? The entire summary was "consider the individual not the statistic." If you are concerned about socio-economic advantages, look at tax returns not skin color - the whole point of some prior civil rights movements was that skin color is a terrible proxy for evaluating the person underneath. Honestly the graph examples of the overlapping bell curves vs the plotted averages in his document was such an excellent point, and yet the extremely salient points that should be discussed are being railroaded over by misrepresented hyperbole - your straw man theoretical imcluded. There's a great deal of nuance he paid attention to, and I really wish his detractors had the same consideration for nuance in their counter-points. Edit: I didn't realize on first read that you were creating a hyperbole to highlight the bias in the calls for his firing. Leaving the comment as is though, as in general there needs to be a lot more nuance considered, particularly by his detractors. Apologies for misreading your comment's intention.

tunesmith 9y ago

Interesting question, but I don't think it is symmetrical because of the power dynamic.

a_puppy 9y ago
You're thinking of a men vs. women power dynamic. But that's not a realistic power dynamic, because neither men nor women act as a block. (For example, 44% of female voters in the 2016 election voted for Trump!) The actual power dynamic here is feminists vs. non-feminists, and at Google right now the feminists have a lot of power--as evidenced by the fact this guy got fired.
- tunesmith 9y ago
  Men and women don't need to act as blocs for an asymmetrical power imbalance to exist.
- Domenic_S 9y ago
  Not trying to be a smartass, I'm only commenting because I was genuinely confused for a moment -- the word is _bloc_ in this context. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bloc https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bloc
  - a_puppy 9y ago
    Thanks! I wasn't sure; I should have looked it up instead of guessing.
josteink 9y ago
He asked about your opinion on a principle, because many people prefer reasoned, principled policy over internet-fueled, hysterical mob rule. Dodging the question by saying you don't find the principle "interesting" when applied on the other end of the argument is effectively admitting that you know the principle is flawed.
- tunesmith 9y ago
  What? I said interesting question. Not a not interesting question. And which principle? The scenario? Yes, I believe the scenario is flawed. Not sure why you are saying admitted. To be clearer, white privilege exists. Male privilege exists. That is a power dynamic over women and minorities, enjoyed by men and non-minorities. To deny those privileges exist increases the privilege. To deny that existing bias exists helps to increase the bias. To admit those privileges exist decreases the privilege. To admit that existing biases exist helps to decrease the bias. So, writing a manifesto (that admits white privilege) does not put white people into greater danger beneath those who enjoy the power dynamic over them (no one). But, writing a manifesto (that denies sexism) does put women into greater danger beneath those who enjoy the power dynamic over them (men). Is that clearer?
  - tomp 9y ago
    > Male privilege exists. That is a power dynamic over women This doesn't necessarily follow, because insofar as male privilege exists, so does female privilege (such as no draft, "women and children first", the "women are wonderful " effect and the fact that women represent the majority of the voting base), so it's really hard to say one sex is more privileged than the other, rather than just privileged differently.
    - tunesmith 9y ago
      Thanks for the comment, I intended it to implicitly come across that I was speaking about employment, where male privilege exceeds female privilege.
LordHumungous 9y ago
It is a little bit symmetrical though because white males are occasionally told they have had everything handed to them and they do find that infuriating to hear.

kromem 9y ago

Except his whole point was that only looking at averages and not considering the spread and distribution is insane. Should a son of a several-year unemployed coal miner be discriminated against because of his gender and race, just because other people with that same gender and race have done better than average? The entire summary was "consider the individual not the statistic." If you are concerned about socio-economic advantages, look at tax returns not skin color - the whole point of some prior civil rights movements was that skin color is a terrible proxy for evaluating the person underneath. Honestly the graph examples of the overlapping bell curves vs the plotted averages in his document was such an excellent point, and yet the extremely salient points that should be discussed are being railroaded over by misrepresented hyperbole - your straw man theoretical imcluded. There's a great deal of nuance he paid attention to, and I really wish his detractors had the same consideration for nuance in their counter-points. Edit: I didn't realize on first read that you were creating a hyperbole to highlight the bias in the calls for his firing. Leaving the comment as is though, as in general there needs to be a lot more nuance considered, particularly by his detractors. Apologies for misreading your comment's intention.