5 ms·

What is the more sexist statement: a) Men and women should be hired based on merit, and ability to perform required tasks. b) Men and women are unable to comp

• mrkgnao 9y ago
  Neither is well-posed. Humans, contrary to what they may tell themselves, are not effective, impartial judges of "merit". Diversity initiatives correct for this deficiency.
  • redial 9y ago
    Try to.
• saimiam 9y ago
  What if the tasks he wants done by meritorious candidates were selected by a very heteronormative, white dominated bloc of powerful people? In your view, would that call into question the propriety of asking a minority candidate to compete against a majority candidate? Even the SATs struggles/d with making sure their tears didn't implicit strengthen the scores of any one group of students.
  • imron 9y ago
    For programming and technical tasks, there are objective ways to measure accuracy, correctness and performance of code that don't require any consideration of someone's race, gender or sexuality.
    • etchalon 9y ago
      I've never encountered a programming exercise which was completely objective, outside of pure instructionals. Engineering has large degrees of opinion mixed into any non-rudimentary implementation.
      • imron 9y ago
        I've never encountered a programming exercise where race, gender, or sexuality was a consideration in whether or not the code was correct.
        • etchalon 9y ago
          It absolutely plays into it. If a programming exercise is subjective, from what perspective is it subjective in bias of? Likely the author's, who's bias will be derived somewhat from their race, gender, sexuality, socio-economic class, background, peer group, etc. Code is correct if it works. But plenty of "working" solutions will be rejected as being "incorrect" based on current trends, internalized philosophy, preferred approach, etc. etc. As someone who hires engineers, it is difficult if not impossible to separate personal bias and preference from an evaluation.
        • jacalata 9y ago
          You've never seen code implementing a form to gather names?
          • etchalon 9y ago
            I've never seen that specific test (that'd be a useless test), but I get your point. "Here's a thing to do, do it." But there's a billion ways to write that code. Which ones will the evaluator prefer and/or reject? That's where subjective opinion comes in.
        • Nitramp 9y ago
          Interviews (by design!) simulate intense interaction between the interviewer and the interviewee, similar to a workplace situation when trying to solve a problem. That setup is not objective. The result, even just the code itself, is also not judged on a binary yes/no scale, which again leaves a lot of room for opinions and bias to muddy the water. I've done hundreds of engineering interviews. Conducting objective interviews is very hard. Anybody thinking they are objective either has never done interviews or is fooling themselves.
        • 9y ago
    • saimiam 9y ago
      > For programming and technical tasks You are judged and reviewed on a myriad different factors other than this. Are you a "team player?" Do you mentor others well? Do people like you? Were you picked to do complex projects this review cycle? Are you too loud? Too timid? Do you ask insightful questions? Is your coding style "normal"? Do you dress professionally? Can you be asked to interface with clients? Every little thing that can be used will be used to form a composite picture of you as a person. It's wrong to expect a foreigner like me to be judged on whether I know baseball stats but I'm sure someone somewhere has made an inside reference about baseball around me and written me off when didn't even acknowledge it. That's what diversity programs and affirmative action programs try to short circuit.
• api 9y ago
  There is another: c) Human beings are poor judges of merit due to cognitive bias, poor intuition for statistics, prejudices based on emotional reactions to irrelevant past experiences, and perverse incentives. It is therefore justifiable to apply a post correction. I'm a bit surprised that techies don't see this as obvious. How often do inferior products win due to superior marketing that plays on these biases? I am also surprised programmers have such confidence in absolute meritocracy in code shops given that every coder knows how hard it can be to evaluate the performance of coders on a team. Let's say one coder closes tons of tickets but does shoddy work while another works more slowly and creates things of beauty. The former often looks better but the latter might be the real MVP. I've seen coders who add little code but are indispensable on a team due to things like deep domain knowledge, great judgement, spooky horse whisperer debugging skills, etc. Yet suddenly some are convinced of the infallibility of our ideas of merit as soon as someone tosses a culture war grenade in the room. I don't even want to bring up the softness of some of the areas of science cited by that manifesto or the reproducibility crisis they've had but... Oops I just did. Personally I am on the fence about diversity measures such as the ones I've heard exist at Google for practical reasons. I am not convinced they work very well and as an engineer I prefer things that work. My sentiment is on their side though, and I have become deeply repelled by the opposing movement (now generally called the alt-right) ever since it unmasked itself. Head over to alt-right subs on Reddit or worse Voat if you want to see what they really stand for. So if I were forced to pick a side I would begrudgingly pick the diversity nazis over the actual Nazis.
  • tomp 9y ago
    > It is therefore justifiable to apply a post correction. But if your premise is that (essentially) people are wrong, how do you know that the post-correction will be appied "correctly" (i.e. not make things even more wrong)?
• orbitur 9y ago
  B isn't the argument being made by diversity advocates, that's just the strawman created by people like yourself. You can fix it by changing it to b) Men and women aren't allowed to compete based on merit and women need special consideration in order that equivalent number of men and women are hired. edit: HN comments eat double asterisks???
  • weberc2 9y ago
    Which is demonstrably untrue; women elect into different fields. The "yeah but sexism..." argument doesn't hold water because women achieved parity in the medical and legal professions in a time of actual, blatant sexism and well before every company had million dollar diversity budgets. The strawman is much better than the actual argument.
    • kaitai 9y ago
      Women elect into different fields in large part because of social factors. If a company like Google decides that it doesn't like those social factors, what's wrong with that? Why should social convention rule? A lot of clumping happens in fields. Tell me why women are better at symplectic geometry than symplectic topology (or not). Tell me why women are better combinatorists than number theorists -- I want to hear something about counting the tubers they gathered. Tell me why women are so much more suited to advanced heart failure and transplant cardiology than interventional cardiology (https://www.aamc.org/data/448482/b3table.html https://www.aamc.org/data/448482/b3table.html). I kinda love all the post hoc analysis that goes into explaining these differences, especially when you have to explain then why Portuguese and Italian women are great in algebraic geometry but French women aren't (except for the notable exceptions like Claire Voisin). Most people aren't pioneers; most people follow the pioneers into situations in which they feel mildly more comfortable than the alternative. Sexism plays a huge role, while not being the only factor. Is it really surprising that if you put up a "girls r dum" sign on a clubhouse many will find somewhere else to go? Women electing into different fields is pretty much tautological here. The question is why, and whether it's for reasons we want to support and/or perpetuate. The whole point of the memo at issue is that he figures it's built into women biologically because computers aren't cuddly and that it is thus justifiable and right to perpetuate or support the current set of social roles. I don't know that the guy should have been fired, but it's clear he's not going to be a great team player or supervisor for women.
• mempko 9y ago
  Who is judging them on merit? Mostly guys? Mostly girls? Or an sexless robot?
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• delphinius81 9y ago
  The problem with a), is that often women aren't allowed to compete on merit, or they have to perform twice as hard, twice as often as a male colleague in order to prove it "wasn't some fluke." Also, who decides on "merit" and "ability?" Most real-world problems are not math equations with clear answers. In that case, a homogeneous group is going to decide that merit is based on their group's definition. A diverse group will create a broader definition that accounts for a wider array of ideas and approaches.
  • EduardoBautista 9y ago
    What do you mean by diverse? Gender? Skin color? Or actually bringing new perspectives and opinions? Diversity in tech has essentially become people who look different but think the same way.
  • peak_body_yo 9y ago
    > The problem with a), is that often women aren't allowed to compete on merit, or they have to perform twice as hard, twice as often as a male colleague in order to prove it "wasn't some fluke." I've seen these arguments rehashed over and over by the very same people who overly critcized the manifesto. Yet I have never seen any argument or document written as well as the manifesto supporting these arguments.