7 ms·

In Earth's hottest place, life has been found in strong acid

146 points by happy-go-lucky 9y ago

Infernal 9y ago
In case you, like me, doubted the use of the word "pure" in the headline: > The team found life in a pool where the acidity was measured as zero pH. Cool! EDIT: Nevermind, someone with a better understanding of pH chimed in: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14951312 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14951312
- SubiculumCode 9y ago
  same, and whoah.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
branja 9y ago
If you fell into 100C hot and extremely acidic water it would be a big problem – Barbara Cavalazzi, University of Bologna
- danvayn 9y ago
  Food for thought.
- Mtinie 9y ago
  Semi-serious question: In the unfortunate circumstance that you find yourself immersed in 100C water with a PH of 0, which condition would be the one that has the higher likelihood that it would kill you first?
  - arkitaip 9y ago
    I would want to kill myself over not knowing if my underwear were clean should I survive and had to be medically treated.
  - jaggederest 9y ago
    It depends on which ion(s) in particular was in the solution. If it was something relatively pleasant, like the referenced sulfuric, carbonic, and chloric acids, the heat would almost certainly be more of a problem in the short term. In the long term you'd be missing significant portions of your anatomy due to the dehydration of your skin by the sulfuric acid, but that could certainly wait. On the other hand, if it were (for example) hydrofluoric acid, you'd have nerve transmission issues and your heart would stop well before you'd be cooked thoroughly. Here's an interesting video by Nile Red showing that it's not the acid, per se, that is especially dangerous: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeVZQoJ5FdE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeVZQoJ5FdE Now, when you heat things, all the reactions speed up. So it'd certainly be only a few seconds before things would get very drastic.
    - mirimir 9y ago
      And with hot fuming nitric acid, you'd go up in flames.
  - taneq 9y ago
    The temperature. It takes far less long to boil alive than to dissolve.
  - scythe 9y ago
    A man fell into the boiling lake on Dominica and was cooked to death in seconds so I'm going with that. But acid is made stronger by heat so it's not necessarily separable.
conistonwater 9y ago
Isn't one of these lakes the same as the one that Periodic Videos talked about recently (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uaj722cg9Gk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uaj722cg9Gk)?
knoepfle 9y ago
"Pure acid" isn't quite right; it's an aqueous solution with a pH of zero. Zero isn't a special value. You can have negative pH (cf. http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ed083p1465 http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ed083p1465).
- dekhn 9y ago
  Yep. Iron Mountain Mine makes this place look pretty wimpy. pH -3.6, temps above 47C, boiling sulfur dioxide, etc, etc. Dunno if the pH -3.6 they sampled has anything living in it.
  - 21 9y ago
    Well, based on this article it either was not tested for life or it didn't have it.
  - pdkl95 9y ago
    There are at least 5 extremophile species in the biofilms at Iron Mountain, according to the sequencing done at the JGI[0][1] in the early 2000s. They've continued[3] sequencing more samples form the mine ove3r the last decade, so I suspect the actual number of known species is far higher. The effort to sequence their genomes was one of the first attempts to directly sequence an environmental sample without first culturing and separating the individual species (with environmental samples, the separation happens during assembly). This is important when there no known way to culture the bacteria/archaea under investigation. [0] Disclosure: I provided software support for this project. [1] http://jgi.doe.gov/news_2_2_04/ http://jgi.doe.gov/news_2_2_04/ [2] http://genome.jgi.doe.gov/?core=genome&query=acid%20mine&searchIn=Anything&searchType=Keyword&showAll=false&externallySequenced=true&sortBy=displayNameStr&showRestricted=true&showOnlyPublished=false&showSuperseded=true&sortOrder=asc&rawQuery=false&showFungalOnly=false&activateHighlights=false&programName=all&programYear=all&superkingdom=--any--&scientificProgram=--any--&productCategory=--any--&start=0&rows=50 http://genome.jgi.doe.gov/?core=genome&query=acid%20mine&sea...
    - miles 9y ago
      This is one of those epic replies[1] that makes HN so neat. Wondering whether anything lives in Iron Mountain's hostile environment? No worries - the guy who provided software support for that project will elucidate the matter (with links to boot!). [1] Perhaps the most epic of epic replies was Colin Percival's legendary snorter: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079
21 9y ago
So is this 0.2 pH more corrosive/stronger than sulfuric acid or not?
- hbk1966 9y ago
  It is stronger
- zzazzdsa 9y ago
  Well, pH refers to the concentration of protons in water solvent. Since pure sulfuric acid has no water (excluding that which is in equilibrium with sulfur trioxide), pH isn't really well defined for it. A better definition of acidity which does not have this problem is the Hammett acidity function. Sulfuric acid on this scale has an acidity of -12. (Note that this acidity score is not fully comparable to pH. However, with a difference so massive (a factor of one trillion times more acidic), this subtle difference ceases to be relevant.) If you're asking about corrosivity, sulfuric acid gets its reputation because its also strongly dehydrating. Thus, it does wonderful things like rip the water out of your skin or char paper. I would hazard a guess that the water they've found in the paper does neither of those things.
  - wfunction 9y ago
    I thought pH = -log[H+]? where [H+] is the molarity of the hydrogen ion? That doesn't involve water in the definition... what is the definition you're referring to? Edit regarding your reply asserting water is necessary (I can't reply now due to throttling): What about all the acid/base reactions that don't involve water? You can't ascribe any pH to either of them in that case?
    - Pulcinella 9y ago
      [H+] is shorthand for [H3O+]. H3O+ (hydronium ion) requires water plus a hydrogen ion from the acid. There aren't actually free H+ ions floating around. They are all attached to water molecules.
      - 9y ago
slaveofallah93 9y ago
"Pure acid" is a pretty meaningless description. Water is a weak acid (and also a weak base) so in a sense ordinary water could be described as "pure acid".
danso 9y ago
Was expecting this to be another article about yet another environment in which tardigrades have been discovered to survive http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/science/space/16obvacu.html http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/science/space/16obvacu.htm...
ridgeguy 9y ago
The article suggests a considerable degree of physical danger in walking around to collect hot pool water samples. This would be a good use case for drone-based collection, at least for surface samples.
- abakker 9y ago
  I was thinking the same thing, but, I would worry that the drones might not work well in that atmosphere. Very hot air filled with toxic gasses would definitely require better than average "weather" sealing. Looks like the atmosphere is made up of Hydrogen Sulphide and Chlorine, and would require getting awfully close to 0ph boiling water. I'd hate to see what happened if the drone failed and you dropped a mix of plastic, metal, and a high-density lithium battery into it. I suspect it isn't worth the environmental risk.
  - ridgeguy 9y ago
    Really good point. I hadn't thought about what volcanic-sourced water vapor would do to just about everything a drone is made of. Not pretty, I'm sure.
SubiculumCode 9y ago
What a pleasure it is to have this forum where people can zero in on loose language and logical fallacies. I do not mean this sarcastically in the least.
- bhhaskin 9y ago
  It seems to be getting worse as well. Not just here, but everywhere online.
the_common_man 9y ago
Is 45C such a big deal? Chennai (India) routinely gets such temperatures and humidity is like 95%. Look no further for a place teeming with life ;) http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/At-42-5C-mercury-touches-last-years-highest-in-Chennai/articleshow/20269142.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/At-42-5C-mer... http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/Chennai-swelters-as-real-feel-temperature-touches-45C/articleshow/34394474.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/Chennai-swel...
- dasil003 9y ago
  If by routine you mean once in the last 50 years. This place just happened to hit 10° hotter than that during the random interval researchers were there to measure it.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
narrator 9y ago
There are more inhospitable places on earth for life than this and they are much less hot and acidic. For instance, in the Atacama desert, the driest parts of which have never recorded rain and look like a spitting image of Mars, NASA scientists looked for bacteria and found absolutely nothing[1]. The researchers even said: "The Atacama is the only place on Earth that I've taken soil samples to grow microorganisms back at the lab and nothing whatsoever grew." 1. https://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/news/releases/2003/03_87AR.html https://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/news/releases/2003/03_87AR...
- vbuwivbiu 9y ago
  Just because nothing could be cultured doesn't mean there was nothing there - some organisms can't be easily cultured. The real test would be to run the soil through a DNA sequencer.
brian-armstrong 9y ago
How much in common do extremophiles have with even simple garden variety microbes? Do they share any proteins?
coldcode 9y ago
I've always wondered how the bacteria in these highly acid/high temperature pools ever got started.

In case you, like me, doubted the use of the word "pure" in the headline: > The team found life in a pool where the acidity was measured as zero pH. Cool! EDIT: Nevermind, someone with a better understanding of pH chimed in: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14951312 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14951312

SubiculumCode 9y ago
same, and whoah.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

branja 9y ago

If you fell into 100C hot and extremely acidic water it would be a big problem – Barbara Cavalazzi, University of Bologna

danvayn 9y ago
Food for thought.
Mtinie 9y ago
Semi-serious question: In the unfortunate circumstance that you find yourself immersed in 100C water with a PH of 0, which condition would be the one that has the higher likelihood that it would kill you first?
- arkitaip 9y ago
  I would want to kill myself over not knowing if my underwear were clean should I survive and had to be medically treated.
- jaggederest 9y ago
  It depends on which ion(s) in particular was in the solution. If it was something relatively pleasant, like the referenced sulfuric, carbonic, and chloric acids, the heat would almost certainly be more of a problem in the short term. In the long term you'd be missing significant portions of your anatomy due to the dehydration of your skin by the sulfuric acid, but that could certainly wait. On the other hand, if it were (for example) hydrofluoric acid, you'd have nerve transmission issues and your heart would stop well before you'd be cooked thoroughly. Here's an interesting video by Nile Red showing that it's not the acid, per se, that is especially dangerous: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeVZQoJ5FdE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeVZQoJ5FdE Now, when you heat things, all the reactions speed up. So it'd certainly be only a few seconds before things would get very drastic.
  - mirimir 9y ago
    And with hot fuming nitric acid, you'd go up in flames.
- taneq 9y ago
  The temperature. It takes far less long to boil alive than to dissolve.
- scythe 9y ago
  A man fell into the boiling lake on Dominica and was cooked to death in seconds so I'm going with that. But acid is made stronger by heat so it's not necessarily separable.

conistonwater 9y ago

Isn't one of these lakes the same as the one that Periodic Videos talked about recently (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uaj722cg9Gk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uaj722cg9Gk)?

knoepfle 9y ago

"Pure acid" isn't quite right; it's an aqueous solution with a pH of zero. Zero isn't a special value. You can have negative pH (cf. http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ed083p1465 http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ed083p1465).

dekhn 9y ago
Yep. Iron Mountain Mine makes this place look pretty wimpy. pH -3.6, temps above 47C, boiling sulfur dioxide, etc, etc. Dunno if the pH -3.6 they sampled has anything living in it.
- 21 9y ago
  Well, based on this article it either was not tested for life or it didn't have it.
- pdkl95 9y ago
  There are at least 5 extremophile species in the biofilms at Iron Mountain, according to the sequencing done at the JGI[0][1] in the early 2000s. They've continued[3] sequencing more samples form the mine ove3r the last decade, so I suspect the actual number of known species is far higher. The effort to sequence their genomes was one of the first attempts to directly sequence an environmental sample without first culturing and separating the individual species (with environmental samples, the separation happens during assembly). This is important when there no known way to culture the bacteria/archaea under investigation. [0] Disclosure: I provided software support for this project. [1] http://jgi.doe.gov/news_2_2_04/ http://jgi.doe.gov/news_2_2_04/ [2] http://genome.jgi.doe.gov/?core=genome&query=acid%20mine&searchIn=Anything&searchType=Keyword&showAll=false&externallySequenced=true&sortBy=displayNameStr&showRestricted=true&showOnlyPublished=false&showSuperseded=true&sortOrder=asc&rawQuery=false&showFungalOnly=false&activateHighlights=false&programName=all&programYear=all&superkingdom=--any--&scientificProgram=--any--&productCategory=--any--&start=0&rows=50 http://genome.jgi.doe.gov/?core=genome&query=acid%20mine&sea...
  - miles 9y ago
    This is one of those epic replies[1] that makes HN so neat. Wondering whether anything lives in Iron Mountain's hostile environment? No worries - the guy who provided software support for that project will elucidate the matter (with links to boot!). [1] Perhaps the most epic of epic replies was Colin Percival's legendary snorter: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079

21 9y ago

So is this 0.2 pH more corrosive/stronger than sulfuric acid or not?

hbk1966 9y ago
It is stronger
zzazzdsa 9y ago
Well, pH refers to the concentration of protons in water solvent. Since pure sulfuric acid has no water (excluding that which is in equilibrium with sulfur trioxide), pH isn't really well defined for it. A better definition of acidity which does not have this problem is the Hammett acidity function. Sulfuric acid on this scale has an acidity of -12. (Note that this acidity score is not fully comparable to pH. However, with a difference so massive (a factor of one trillion times more acidic), this subtle difference ceases to be relevant.) If you're asking about corrosivity, sulfuric acid gets its reputation because its also strongly dehydrating. Thus, it does wonderful things like rip the water out of your skin or char paper. I would hazard a guess that the water they've found in the paper does neither of those things.
- wfunction 9y ago
  I thought pH = -log[H+]? where [H+] is the molarity of the hydrogen ion? That doesn't involve water in the definition... what is the definition you're referring to? Edit regarding your reply asserting water is necessary (I can't reply now due to throttling): What about all the acid/base reactions that don't involve water? You can't ascribe any pH to either of them in that case?
  - Pulcinella 9y ago
    [H+] is shorthand for [H3O+]. H3O+ (hydronium ion) requires water plus a hydrogen ion from the acid. There aren't actually free H+ ions floating around. They are all attached to water molecules.
    - 9y ago

slaveofallah93 9y ago

"Pure acid" is a pretty meaningless description. Water is a weak acid (and also a weak base) so in a sense ordinary water could be described as "pure acid".

danso 9y ago

Was expecting this to be another article about yet another environment in which tardigrades have been discovered to survive http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/science/space/16obvacu.html http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/science/space/16obvacu.htm...

ridgeguy 9y ago

The article suggests a considerable degree of physical danger in walking around to collect hot pool water samples. This would be a good use case for drone-based collection, at least for surface samples.

abakker 9y ago
I was thinking the same thing, but, I would worry that the drones might not work well in that atmosphere. Very hot air filled with toxic gasses would definitely require better than average "weather" sealing. Looks like the atmosphere is made up of Hydrogen Sulphide and Chlorine, and would require getting awfully close to 0ph boiling water. I'd hate to see what happened if the drone failed and you dropped a mix of plastic, metal, and a high-density lithium battery into it. I suspect it isn't worth the environmental risk.
- ridgeguy 9y ago
  Really good point. I hadn't thought about what volcanic-sourced water vapor would do to just about everything a drone is made of. Not pretty, I'm sure.

SubiculumCode 9y ago

What a pleasure it is to have this forum where people can zero in on loose language and logical fallacies. I do not mean this sarcastically in the least.

bhhaskin 9y ago
It seems to be getting worse as well. Not just here, but everywhere online.

the_common_man 9y ago

Is 45C such a big deal? Chennai (India) routinely gets such temperatures and humidity is like 95%. Look no further for a place teeming with life ;) http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/At-42-5C-mercury-touches-last-years-highest-in-Chennai/articleshow/20269142.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/At-42-5C-mer... http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/Chennai-swelters-as-real-feel-temperature-touches-45C/articleshow/34394474.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/Chennai-swel...

dasil003 9y ago
If by routine you mean once in the last 50 years. This place just happened to hit 10° hotter than that during the random interval researchers were there to measure it.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

narrator 9y ago

There are more inhospitable places on earth for life than this and they are much less hot and acidic. For instance, in the Atacama desert, the driest parts of which have never recorded rain and look like a spitting image of Mars, NASA scientists looked for bacteria and found absolutely nothing[1]. The researchers even said: "The Atacama is the only place on Earth that I've taken soil samples to grow microorganisms back at the lab and nothing whatsoever grew." 1. https://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/news/releases/2003/03_87AR.html https://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/news/releases/2003/03_87AR...

vbuwivbiu 9y ago
Just because nothing could be cultured doesn't mean there was nothing there - some organisms can't be easily cultured. The real test would be to run the soil through a DNA sequencer.

brian-armstrong 9y ago

How much in common do extremophiles have with even simple garden variety microbes? Do they share any proteins?

coldcode 9y ago

I've always wondered how the bacteria in these highly acid/high temperature pools ever got started.