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The irony here is the fallout from this memo is exactly what the author was trying to fight against. Most negative reactions I have seen to the memo attempt to

The irony here is the fallout from this memo is exactly what the author was trying to fight against. Most negative reactions I have seen to the memo attempt to shame the author without engaging in any sort of rational counter or discourse. Whether or not the author is "right" is entirely up for debate, but I believe they should be able to at least question the current situation and get logical feedback as to why they are "right" or "wrong" rather than emotionally-based feedback about how horrible of a person they are.

danso 9y ago
I find it difficult to substantively argue against the author because it's such a hodgepodge of assertions, including a bulleted list of what the a author considers "left" and "right" biases.
ceejayoz 9y ago
> Most negative reactions I have seen to the memo attempt to shame the author without engaging in any sort of rational counter or discourse. Likely because it's the same old pseudoscientific Gish Gallop of claims that've been addressed a thousand times before. https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-manifesto-1e3773ed1788 https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-man...
- sebleon 9y ago
  Right, as much as i disagree with many points in the manifesto, i don't think Yonatan Zunger actually read the manifesto before replying.
- mnglkhn2 9y ago
  just to point out that the comments on the piece you're pointing too are also worth a read...
- tooltalk 9y ago
  IMO, Zunger's dismissive and "corrosive" response does nothing, but reinforces the original author's point about the majority's oppressive censorship. https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2017/08/07/googles-diversity-rumpus-the-fun-thing-is-hes-right-about-the-cause-of-the-gender-disparity/#44a84b052b41 https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2017/08/07/googles-...
  - koomi 9y ago
    Agreed. I don't grasp how, in response to a text lamenting a lack of psychological safety and fear of being shamed into silence, a response which essentially states "what you said was stupid, you should never have talked about it and this will have negative consequences for your career" can be considered appropriate, let alone as having a positive impact in any meaningful way.
MBCook 9y ago
The person essentially gave ANY woman he works with a gender descrimination suit slam-dunk. Are you a woman? Does he review your code poorly? Did you possibly lose a promotion/bonus because of review scores? You've got a great case. Is he your manager? WOW do you have a great case. Your career is based on peer reviews and he is one of your reviewers? Google is in trouble. I don't think it IS up for debate but no matter what what he did is a NIGHTMARE for Google internally, let alone the PR and recruiting disasters it has become.
- MBCook 9y ago
  I'm assuming I was voted down for saying 'it wasn't up for debate'. Fine. Does anyone disagree that in a discrimination case where the author is a party his 'manifesto' would be a BIG problem? If you disagree, I'd love to hear why. (IANAL)
rpearl 9y ago
The author's claims are not factual. The "biological" bases he asserts as fact are debunked, and not even recently. You say that we should engage with him, but there's nothing of substance there to engage with. So then, we shouldn't tolerate his breach of the "peace treaty" of tolerance. He stepped over a line, and should be socially stigmatized for it. https://extranewsfeed.com/tolerance-is-not-a-moral-precept-1af7007d6376 https://extranewsfeed.com/tolerance-is-not-a-moral-precept-1...
- sebleon 9y ago
  Could you provide links to the debunking research? While not required, engaging with the manifesto's author openly might help convince others like him. He is certainly not alone in this mindset, and if it's easy to point out the faults in this line of reasoning, we should be able to correct this once and for all.
  - rpearl 9y ago
    1. A claim about universality across human cultures. Demonstrably false: http://s3.amazonaws.com/fieldexperiments-papers2/papers/00049.pdf http://s3.amazonaws.com/fieldexperiments-papers2/papers/0004... 2. A sweeping variety of claims about the personality differences of coworkers at his own company and why these differences make it okay for him to discriminate. Debunked here: https://www.fastcompany.com/40449759/according-to-employee-personality-tests-there-is-no-difference-between-male-and-female-google-employees https://www.fastcompany.com/40449759/according-to-employee-p... 3. A claim that there is "a bar" which is "lowered" for diversity candidates Rather, diverse teams are demonstrably more effective than homogeneous teams: https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter, so even if by the author's chosen metrics "the bar" is "lowered", those are not good metrics. There is no single bar, when developing a cooperative group. 4. Various claims about unconscious biases not being the reason for the gender gap It is demonstrable that competence is evaluated with bias: https://www.theladders.com/p/22203/brunette-blonde-women-leaders https://www.theladders.com/p/22203/brunette-blonde-women-lea... (links to studies) It is demonstrable that social factors hold women back more than men: http://www.aauw.org/research/why-so-few/ http://www.aauw.org/research/why-so-few/ There's lots of other false claims, but I don't really want to do the digging. I've already engaged with this more than I think to be generally productive. And that's kind of the point: from a comfortable position where the author is not affected by the policies he argues, those who are must defend. For the author, it is a hypothetical. For the attacked, it is not. There is a fundamental asymmetry in any discourse here.
greenavoid 9y ago
https://twitter.com/DrNerdLove/status/894199995800449024 https://twitter.com/DrNerdLove/status/894199995800449024

danso 9y ago

I find it difficult to substantively argue against the author because it's such a hodgepodge of assertions, including a bulleted list of what the a author considers "left" and "right" biases.

ceejayoz 9y ago

> Most negative reactions I have seen to the memo attempt to shame the author without engaging in any sort of rational counter or discourse. Likely because it's the same old pseudoscientific Gish Gallop of claims that've been addressed a thousand times before. https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-manifesto-1e3773ed1788 https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-man...

sebleon 9y ago
Right, as much as i disagree with many points in the manifesto, i don't think Yonatan Zunger actually read the manifesto before replying.
mnglkhn2 9y ago
just to point out that the comments on the piece you're pointing too are also worth a read...
tooltalk 9y ago
IMO, Zunger's dismissive and "corrosive" response does nothing, but reinforces the original author's point about the majority's oppressive censorship. https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2017/08/07/googles-diversity-rumpus-the-fun-thing-is-hes-right-about-the-cause-of-the-gender-disparity/#44a84b052b41 https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2017/08/07/googles-...
- koomi 9y ago
  Agreed. I don't grasp how, in response to a text lamenting a lack of psychological safety and fear of being shamed into silence, a response which essentially states "what you said was stupid, you should never have talked about it and this will have negative consequences for your career" can be considered appropriate, let alone as having a positive impact in any meaningful way.

MBCook 9y ago

The person essentially gave ANY woman he works with a gender descrimination suit slam-dunk. Are you a woman? Does he review your code poorly? Did you possibly lose a promotion/bonus because of review scores? You've got a great case. Is he your manager? WOW do you have a great case. Your career is based on peer reviews and he is one of your reviewers? Google is in trouble. I don't think it IS up for debate but no matter what what he did is a NIGHTMARE for Google internally, let alone the PR and recruiting disasters it has become.

MBCook 9y ago
I'm assuming I was voted down for saying 'it wasn't up for debate'. Fine. Does anyone disagree that in a discrimination case where the author is a party his 'manifesto' would be a BIG problem? If you disagree, I'd love to hear why. (IANAL)

rpearl 9y ago

The author's claims are not factual. The "biological" bases he asserts as fact are debunked, and not even recently. You say that we should engage with him, but there's nothing of substance there to engage with. So then, we shouldn't tolerate his breach of the "peace treaty" of tolerance. He stepped over a line, and should be socially stigmatized for it. https://extranewsfeed.com/tolerance-is-not-a-moral-precept-1af7007d6376 https://extranewsfeed.com/tolerance-is-not-a-moral-precept-1...

sebleon 9y ago
Could you provide links to the debunking research? While not required, engaging with the manifesto's author openly might help convince others like him. He is certainly not alone in this mindset, and if it's easy to point out the faults in this line of reasoning, we should be able to correct this once and for all.
- rpearl 9y ago
  1. A claim about universality across human cultures. Demonstrably false: http://s3.amazonaws.com/fieldexperiments-papers2/papers/00049.pdf http://s3.amazonaws.com/fieldexperiments-papers2/papers/0004... 2. A sweeping variety of claims about the personality differences of coworkers at his own company and why these differences make it okay for him to discriminate. Debunked here: https://www.fastcompany.com/40449759/according-to-employee-personality-tests-there-is-no-difference-between-male-and-female-google-employees https://www.fastcompany.com/40449759/according-to-employee-p... 3. A claim that there is "a bar" which is "lowered" for diversity candidates Rather, diverse teams are demonstrably more effective than homogeneous teams: https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter, so even if by the author's chosen metrics "the bar" is "lowered", those are not good metrics. There is no single bar, when developing a cooperative group. 4. Various claims about unconscious biases not being the reason for the gender gap It is demonstrable that competence is evaluated with bias: https://www.theladders.com/p/22203/brunette-blonde-women-leaders https://www.theladders.com/p/22203/brunette-blonde-women-lea... (links to studies) It is demonstrable that social factors hold women back more than men: http://www.aauw.org/research/why-so-few/ http://www.aauw.org/research/why-so-few/ There's lots of other false claims, but I don't really want to do the digging. I've already engaged with this more than I think to be generally productive. And that's kind of the point: from a comfortable position where the author is not affected by the policies he argues, those who are must defend. For the author, it is a hypothetical. For the attacked, it is not. There is a fundamental asymmetry in any discourse here.

greenavoid 9y ago

https://twitter.com/DrNerdLove/status/894199995800449024 https://twitter.com/DrNerdLove/status/894199995800449024