6 ms·

Google Grapples with Fallout After Employee Slams Diversity Efforts

36 points by pkrecker 9y ago

aaronhoffman 9y ago
"...After Employee Slams Diversity Efforts" doesn't seem to be an impartial headline to me.
- naturalgradient 9y ago
  How do you mean? Aside from being the literal headline of the NPR article and thus being right for HN, what would you suggest?
  - aaronhoffman 9y ago
    My comment was WRT the NPR headline itself.
    - MBCook 9y ago
      What would you suggest? From what I've seen that seems like a pretty apt description.
- aidenn0 9y ago
  The memo did slam the diversity efforts at Google. If the headline had been something like "Anti-diversity memo" you might be able to claim a lack of impartiality, but I think even the author of the memo would agree that it specifically called out some of the diversity efforts at Google.
gavanwoolery 9y ago
The irony here is the fallout from this memo is exactly what the author was trying to fight against. Most negative reactions I have seen to the memo attempt to shame the author without engaging in any sort of rational counter or discourse. Whether or not the author is "right" is entirely up for debate, but I believe they should be able to at least question the current situation and get logical feedback as to why they are "right" or "wrong" rather than emotionally-based feedback about how horrible of a person they are.
- danso 9y ago
  I find it difficult to substantively argue against the author because it's such a hodgepodge of assertions, including a bulleted list of what the a author considers "left" and "right" biases.
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  > Most negative reactions I have seen to the memo attempt to shame the author without engaging in any sort of rational counter or discourse. Likely because it's the same old pseudoscientific Gish Gallop of claims that've been addressed a thousand times before. https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-manifesto-1e3773ed1788 https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-man...
  - sebleon 9y ago
    Right, as much as i disagree with many points in the manifesto, i don't think Yonatan Zunger actually read the manifesto before replying.
  - mnglkhn2 9y ago
    just to point out that the comments on the piece you're pointing too are also worth a read...
  - tooltalk 9y ago
    IMO, Zunger's dismissive and "corrosive" response does nothing, but reinforces the original author's point about the majority's oppressive censorship. https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2017/08/07/googles-diversity-rumpus-the-fun-thing-is-hes-right-about-the-cause-of-the-gender-disparity/#44a84b052b41 https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2017/08/07/googles-...
    - koomi 9y ago
      Agreed. I don't grasp how, in response to a text lamenting a lack of psychological safety and fear of being shamed into silence, a response which essentially states "what you said was stupid, you should never have talked about it and this will have negative consequences for your career" can be considered appropriate, let alone as having a positive impact in any meaningful way.
vinhboy 9y ago
This is a classic example of why we shouldn't feed the trolls. I am not sure why this letter is getting so much publicity. This view point can be had any day on reddit. Even in places like /r/technology you'll find plenty of people throwing out these ideas. I find it rather boring and cliche.
- vkou 9y ago
  There are many viewpoints expressed on reddit that, if someone condenses into a manifesto, and sends out to their workplace, will, if all things are right in that workplace, result in swift termination. Your job is not a debate club, nor does it exist as a platform for free speech.
- tptacek 9y ago
  Further, since we've had at least 5 gigantic shitshow threads about this on HN, it's not just boring but repetitive. This is exactly what the "flag" button under the headlines on stories here is for.
- bradly 9y ago
  You may find it boring, but there are many people who's daily lives are affected by this type of behavior. Having it displayed so broadly at a company viewed as progressive as Google validates what marginalized people in these groups have been saying for years but keeps getting dismissed.
- rexicus 9y ago
  You can't discuss anything on the Internet anymore, everything is politicized ax-grinding by dishonest people fishing for clicks, personal celebrity, and Patreon money who just ruin the discussion. Do real journalists still exist that can actually interview some of the parties involved, cut through the tweets and personality, and get both sides of this?
blfr 9y ago
The uproar and its virality within Google first are so weird. From what I skimmed, that post was ultra mild and the author went out of his way to qualify everything.
- minwcnt5 9y ago
  It may appear that way on the surface, but that's because it follows a typical pseudo-scientific formula of citing some a few specific results as evidence to give the argument an air of credibility, and then drawing broad and profound conclusions that are at best vaguely related to the evidence. He basically went from "there are biological differences between men and women that affect their preferences" (okay, I can maybe buy that) straight to "women may not be as good a fit as men for these roles" and "Google should consider ending all of its diversity efforts". The evidence he cited (some of which is research that's been debunked) doesn't even come CLOSE to justifying his conclusions. The reason there's such an uproar within Google is that the place is full of people with extensive training in mathematics and logic, who can easily spot when you submit a "proof" that is missing about 10,000 steps between the low level lemmas and the top level claims. Combine this with the fact that the claims are questioning the right of 1/3 of the company to exist there, and of course the reaction is going to be incredibly visceral. I honestly don't know how anyone could read more than a paragraph of that document without their bullshit detector exploding.
- pavlov 9y ago
  I suspect the pretend-polite tone makes it even worse. Women are tired of hearing these prejudices, but they're often abrupt, poorly spelled missives that are easy to ignore. When somebody wraps it into a careful sandwich of "But have you considered testosterone? Just asking..." for 10 pages long, it feels like the author is seriously working hard to undermine your professional status, not just spouting on a drunk night.
- neo4sure 9y ago
  Ultra mild sexism is great, but still sexism.
xenity7 9y ago
I would encourage everyone here to actually go ahead and read the manifesto/letter. I did and was surprised by its tone, given the type of headline this situation is attracting. I think the author makes some very calm and reasoned points and is attempting to start a discussion where he is open to being wrong. I do NOT agree with all of the points he makes, but I think he is expressing his views in what is largely a respectful manner that is not, for the most part, racist or sexist in the way you might expect. If he's wrong, and he IS wrong on some points, the proper reaction is to engage on these points because other people are thinking them too. Encouraging diversity and inclusion means convincing and educating people at the margin like this guy, not virtue signaling and slamming them for not toeing the line.
- avn2109 9y ago
  Can confirm, the headlines/summary articles are generally sensationalist/clickbaity. The actual document is more evenhanded than breathless journalists would have you believe.
- neo4sure 9y ago
  This guy has PHD. I don't think education will solve the issues he has. Just like education would not have resolved any issues Hitler had. The ideas he espouses are hateful. I think examining his psychic would be more useful.
greenavoid 9y ago
Every article about serious political issues gets flagged at HN. Because technology, coding, and hacking isn't political.

36 points by pkrecker 9y ago

aaronhoffman 9y ago

"...After Employee Slams Diversity Efforts" doesn't seem to be an impartial headline to me.

naturalgradient 9y ago
How do you mean? Aside from being the literal headline of the NPR article and thus being right for HN, what would you suggest?
- aaronhoffman 9y ago
  My comment was WRT the NPR headline itself.
  - MBCook 9y ago
    What would you suggest? From what I've seen that seems like a pretty apt description.
aidenn0 9y ago
The memo did slam the diversity efforts at Google. If the headline had been something like "Anti-diversity memo" you might be able to claim a lack of impartiality, but I think even the author of the memo would agree that it specifically called out some of the diversity efforts at Google.

gavanwoolery 9y ago

The irony here is the fallout from this memo is exactly what the author was trying to fight against. Most negative reactions I have seen to the memo attempt to shame the author without engaging in any sort of rational counter or discourse. Whether or not the author is "right" is entirely up for debate, but I believe they should be able to at least question the current situation and get logical feedback as to why they are "right" or "wrong" rather than emotionally-based feedback about how horrible of a person they are.

danso 9y ago
I find it difficult to substantively argue against the author because it's such a hodgepodge of assertions, including a bulleted list of what the a author considers "left" and "right" biases.
ceejayoz 9y ago
> Most negative reactions I have seen to the memo attempt to shame the author without engaging in any sort of rational counter or discourse. Likely because it's the same old pseudoscientific Gish Gallop of claims that've been addressed a thousand times before. https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-manifesto-1e3773ed1788 https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-man...
- sebleon 9y ago
  Right, as much as i disagree with many points in the manifesto, i don't think Yonatan Zunger actually read the manifesto before replying.
- mnglkhn2 9y ago
  just to point out that the comments on the piece you're pointing too are also worth a read...
- tooltalk 9y ago
  IMO, Zunger's dismissive and "corrosive" response does nothing, but reinforces the original author's point about the majority's oppressive censorship. https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2017/08/07/googles-diversity-rumpus-the-fun-thing-is-hes-right-about-the-cause-of-the-gender-disparity/#44a84b052b41 https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2017/08/07/googles-...
  - koomi 9y ago
    Agreed. I don't grasp how, in response to a text lamenting a lack of psychological safety and fear of being shamed into silence, a response which essentially states "what you said was stupid, you should never have talked about it and this will have negative consequences for your career" can be considered appropriate, let alone as having a positive impact in any meaningful way.

vinhboy 9y ago

This is a classic example of why we shouldn't feed the trolls. I am not sure why this letter is getting so much publicity. This view point can be had any day on reddit. Even in places like /r/technology you'll find plenty of people throwing out these ideas. I find it rather boring and cliche.

vkou 9y ago
There are many viewpoints expressed on reddit that, if someone condenses into a manifesto, and sends out to their workplace, will, if all things are right in that workplace, result in swift termination. Your job is not a debate club, nor does it exist as a platform for free speech.
tptacek 9y ago
Further, since we've had at least 5 gigantic shitshow threads about this on HN, it's not just boring but repetitive. This is exactly what the "flag" button under the headlines on stories here is for.
bradly 9y ago
You may find it boring, but there are many people who's daily lives are affected by this type of behavior. Having it displayed so broadly at a company viewed as progressive as Google validates what marginalized people in these groups have been saying for years but keeps getting dismissed.
rexicus 9y ago
You can't discuss anything on the Internet anymore, everything is politicized ax-grinding by dishonest people fishing for clicks, personal celebrity, and Patreon money who just ruin the discussion. Do real journalists still exist that can actually interview some of the parties involved, cut through the tweets and personality, and get both sides of this?

blfr 9y ago

The uproar and its virality within Google first are so weird. From what I skimmed, that post was ultra mild and the author went out of his way to qualify everything.

minwcnt5 9y ago
It may appear that way on the surface, but that's because it follows a typical pseudo-scientific formula of citing some a few specific results as evidence to give the argument an air of credibility, and then drawing broad and profound conclusions that are at best vaguely related to the evidence. He basically went from "there are biological differences between men and women that affect their preferences" (okay, I can maybe buy that) straight to "women may not be as good a fit as men for these roles" and "Google should consider ending all of its diversity efforts". The evidence he cited (some of which is research that's been debunked) doesn't even come CLOSE to justifying his conclusions. The reason there's such an uproar within Google is that the place is full of people with extensive training in mathematics and logic, who can easily spot when you submit a "proof" that is missing about 10,000 steps between the low level lemmas and the top level claims. Combine this with the fact that the claims are questioning the right of 1/3 of the company to exist there, and of course the reaction is going to be incredibly visceral. I honestly don't know how anyone could read more than a paragraph of that document without their bullshit detector exploding.
pavlov 9y ago
I suspect the pretend-polite tone makes it even worse. Women are tired of hearing these prejudices, but they're often abrupt, poorly spelled missives that are easy to ignore. When somebody wraps it into a careful sandwich of "But have you considered testosterone? Just asking..." for 10 pages long, it feels like the author is seriously working hard to undermine your professional status, not just spouting on a drunk night.
neo4sure 9y ago
Ultra mild sexism is great, but still sexism.

xenity7 9y ago

I would encourage everyone here to actually go ahead and read the manifesto/letter. I did and was surprised by its tone, given the type of headline this situation is attracting. I think the author makes some very calm and reasoned points and is attempting to start a discussion where he is open to being wrong. I do NOT agree with all of the points he makes, but I think he is expressing his views in what is largely a respectful manner that is not, for the most part, racist or sexist in the way you might expect. If he's wrong, and he IS wrong on some points, the proper reaction is to engage on these points because other people are thinking them too. Encouraging diversity and inclusion means convincing and educating people at the margin like this guy, not virtue signaling and slamming them for not toeing the line.

avn2109 9y ago
Can confirm, the headlines/summary articles are generally sensationalist/clickbaity. The actual document is more evenhanded than breathless journalists would have you believe.
neo4sure 9y ago
This guy has PHD. I don't think education will solve the issues he has. Just like education would not have resolved any issues Hitler had. The ideas he espouses are hateful. I think examining his psychic would be more useful.

greenavoid 9y ago

Every article about serious political issues gets flagged at HN. Because technology, coding, and hacking isn't political.