5 ms·

As a German where prostitution is just seen as a regular trade, some general points. 1.) While paid sex is surely available at many places, we still do not live

by geff82 9y ago

As a German where prostitution is just seen as a regular trade, some general points. 1.) While paid sex is surely available at many places, we still do not live in one big brothel. 2.) Why should people have to film their act of having sex and then publish it (porn is legal in the US...) 3.) There is a problem with human trafficking that has to be dealt with. But dealing with this problem in some manner is surely the better way than making prostitution illegal. As long as there are hormons in this world, prostitution will exist. Learn to live with it.

fredley 9y ago
The USA moralises issues more than any other Western democracy as far as I can tell. To a large portion of the electorate, it's not a question of what's [better for women, better for the planet, better for x], it's a question of what's right and what's wrong. Prostitution is obviously wrong, therefore nobody good should be doing it, therefore criminalising it only affects bad people, which is fine, they're bad and they deserve punishment (maybe they'll see the error of their ways and become good people). Or that's how it seems from over here anyway. The UK's better, but not much.
- stared 9y ago
  The eternal battle of deontology vs utilitarianism. For example, just a few months the Polish government made emergency contraception pill prescription-only. This government is strongly against abortion of any kind, yet it passed a bill that will surely increase (illegal) abortion rates. Yet, it does not THINK about consequences of action, just if it supports "right" or "wrong" causes (for them any non-Catholic sex life is "wrong").
  - thaumasiotes 9y ago
    > This government is strongly against abortion of any kind, yet it passed a bill that will surely increase (illegal) abortion rates. This isn't a very good argument. If you care about "abortion of any kind", then increasing the illegal abortion rate while decreasing the overall abortion rate is a perfectly sensible thing to do.
    - stared 9y ago
      Unlike most EU countries, in Poland there is no legal abortion (except for rape and women's life in danger). I added "(illegal)" as an indication that all of such abortions are illegal in Poland.
  - Steuard 9y ago
    Quite a few people who oppose abortion also believe that emergency contraception commonly operates by killing fertilized eggs (by preventing implantation), which would qualify as abortion under their definitions. If that is your belief, and you believe that abortion is morally equivalent to murder, then banning emergency contraception would be a self-consistent thing to do. (Now, the studies I've seen suggest that emergency contraception does not often if ever work that way since it appears to be entirely ineffective when taken after ovulation has occurred, but that's a separate question.)
  - marcosdumay 9y ago
    > The eternal battle of deontology vs utilitarianism. When you are violently coercing people into some kind of behavior, one of those is objectively superior to the other.
    - thaumasiotes 9y ago
      So you're 100% on the side of deontology?
      - marcosdumay 9y ago
        Whose deontology?
        thaumasiotes 9y ago
        Yours. The statement "When you are violently coercing people into some kind of behavior, one of those is objectively superior to the other" is purely deontological, saying that violently coercing people is bad.
        marcosdumay 9y ago
        I'm not coming from "this is bad" (even more because lots of times I don't think it is). Just from "this is a social imposition". Utility has a shared meaning among a population, ontology is meaningless over a group.
        thaumasiotes 9y ago
        Where are you getting "objectively superior" from without reference to good/bad?
        marcosdumay 9y ago
        One exists, the other is meaningless.
paulddraper 9y ago
> As long as there are hormones in this world, prostitution will exist. Learn to live with it. The presence of testosterone does not make use "learn to live" with violent acts.
- reustle 9y ago
  Sure we do. It's called boxing, ufc, wrestling, etc.
  - geff82 9y ago
    And I also did not say "as long as there are hormons, learn to live with rape and violence". Everything should be consensual.
Shivetya 9y ago
One could hope that human trafficking would decrease in areas where prostitution is legal. the amount of underage prostitution in the US is higher than many realize; some don't even know it is an issue. by bringing the trade into the public and properly regulated the next goal is to eliminate any shame from using such services. I would expect not using brothels would make that easier but both means needs to be available.
- kofejnik 9y ago
  Human trafficking victims working at US farms and such probably outnumber prostitutes by at least an order of magnitude. Should farming be outlawed? (Btw are they actually victims if they are willingly doing it?)
SquareWheel 9y ago
>2.) Why should people have to film their act of having sex and then publish it (porn is legal in the US...) Filming sex doesn't suddenly make it legal. It's the permit required which makes it legal.
- thaumasiotes 9y ago
  What permit would that be?

by geff82 9y ago

fredley 9y ago

The USA moralises issues more than any other Western democracy as far as I can tell. To a large portion of the electorate, it's not a question of what's [better for women, better for the planet, better for x], it's a question of what's right and what's wrong. Prostitution is obviously wrong, therefore nobody good should be doing it, therefore criminalising it only affects bad people, which is fine, they're bad and they deserve punishment (maybe they'll see the error of their ways and become good people). Or that's how it seems from over here anyway. The UK's better, but not much.

stared 9y ago
The eternal battle of deontology vs utilitarianism. For example, just a few months the Polish government made emergency contraception pill prescription-only. This government is strongly against abortion of any kind, yet it passed a bill that will surely increase (illegal) abortion rates. Yet, it does not THINK about consequences of action, just if it supports "right" or "wrong" causes (for them any non-Catholic sex life is "wrong").
- thaumasiotes 9y ago
  > This government is strongly against abortion of any kind, yet it passed a bill that will surely increase (illegal) abortion rates. This isn't a very good argument. If you care about "abortion of any kind", then increasing the illegal abortion rate while decreasing the overall abortion rate is a perfectly sensible thing to do.
  - stared 9y ago
    Unlike most EU countries, in Poland there is no legal abortion (except for rape and women's life in danger). I added "(illegal)" as an indication that all of such abortions are illegal in Poland.
- Steuard 9y ago
  Quite a few people who oppose abortion also believe that emergency contraception commonly operates by killing fertilized eggs (by preventing implantation), which would qualify as abortion under their definitions. If that is your belief, and you believe that abortion is morally equivalent to murder, then banning emergency contraception would be a self-consistent thing to do. (Now, the studies I've seen suggest that emergency contraception does not often if ever work that way since it appears to be entirely ineffective when taken after ovulation has occurred, but that's a separate question.)
- marcosdumay 9y ago
  > The eternal battle of deontology vs utilitarianism. When you are violently coercing people into some kind of behavior, one of those is objectively superior to the other.
  - thaumasiotes 9y ago
    So you're 100% on the side of deontology?
    - marcosdumay 9y ago
      Whose deontology?
      - thaumasiotes 9y ago
        Yours. The statement "When you are violently coercing people into some kind of behavior, one of those is objectively superior to the other" is purely deontological, saying that violently coercing people is bad.
        marcosdumay 9y ago
        I'm not coming from "this is bad" (even more because lots of times I don't think it is). Just from "this is a social imposition". Utility has a shared meaning among a population, ontology is meaningless over a group.
        thaumasiotes 9y ago
        Where are you getting "objectively superior" from without reference to good/bad?
        marcosdumay 9y ago
        One exists, the other is meaningless.

paulddraper 9y ago

> As long as there are hormones in this world, prostitution will exist. Learn to live with it. The presence of testosterone does not make use "learn to live" with violent acts.

reustle 9y ago
Sure we do. It's called boxing, ufc, wrestling, etc.
- geff82 9y ago
  And I also did not say "as long as there are hormons, learn to live with rape and violence". Everything should be consensual.

Shivetya 9y ago

One could hope that human trafficking would decrease in areas where prostitution is legal. the amount of underage prostitution in the US is higher than many realize; some don't even know it is an issue. by bringing the trade into the public and properly regulated the next goal is to eliminate any shame from using such services. I would expect not using brothels would make that easier but both means needs to be available.

kofejnik 9y ago
Human trafficking victims working at US farms and such probably outnumber prostitutes by at least an order of magnitude. Should farming be outlawed? (Btw are they actually victims if they are willingly doing it?)

SquareWheel 9y ago

>2.) Why should people have to film their act of having sex and then publish it (porn is legal in the US...) Filming sex doesn't suddenly make it legal. It's the permit required which makes it legal.

thaumasiotes 9y ago
What permit would that be?