4 ms·

I have this thing about reading footnotes first: "I consider myself a classical liberal and strongly value individualism and reason." I miss the days when lib

I have this thing about reading footnotes first: "I consider myself a classical liberal and strongly value individualism and reason." I miss the days when libertarians weren't ashamed to admit so. But back then, they could debate the difference between von Mises and Hayek. Today... not so much. Ideology isn't Book Deep, it's Google Search Deep.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
CalChris 9y ago
There are no libertarian issues involved in this kerfuffle. This is a corporation, a free association of people, and an individual. If Google wants to shitcan the OP, von Mises is silent on the subject. The big bad state of CA is silent on the subject as well. And I don't think any classical liberals would find a kindred spirit in him regardless of how he labels himself. Also, he does say Stop alienating conservatives. So let's get that charade over with and just call him a conservative and dispense with any libertarian nonsense.
- smsm42 9y ago
  Your presumption is that only a conservative can be against alienating conservatives, and a true libertarian would be OK with whatever is done to conservatives - after all, he's not one, so who cares about those people?
  - CalChris 9y ago
    You're kind've chasing your tail there. I wasn't aware that libertarians would be against alienating conservatives but then totally ok with alienating women because Hayek.
    - smsm42 9y ago
      > I wasn't aware that libertarians would be against alienating conservatives Because it's only not OK to alienate people who we agree with, but the idea of having civil discussion with people we disagree with... who needs that? Just call them names, chase them out and be done with it! Do you think this is the libertarian way? Where did you meet libertarians like these? > then totally ok with alienating women because Hayek. Err what? Who you are arguing with here? Nobody said it's "ok with alienating women" and Hayek has nothing to do with it. Could you please leave that strawman alone, he needs a well-deserved rest.
      - CalChris 9y ago
        I do not hold libertarians in any high regard. I generally find that ism to be a flag of convenience and that would definitely be the case with the OP. Again, the OP is concerned with Google alienating conservatives but then is completely oblivious to his alienating half of the population. Because what? Would you prefer Edmund Burke?
        smsm42 9y ago
        > I do not hold libertarians in any high regard. That's your problem but hardly an argument to anything. > I generally find that ism to be a flag of convenience and that would definitely be the case with the OP. You are definitely wrong on the first part, to the point of being insulting and disrespectful to literally millions of people holding genuine libertarian beliefs (what is especially ironic here that I assume with high probability that you think it somehow serves the case for inclusiveness and tolerance). As for the second part, I see no way you could have any useful information about it, unless you personally know the author and he told you so. Do you? > Because what? Would you prefer Edmund Burke? I am sorry, I do not understand this comment. Could you make your point a bit clearer, if there's any? What exactly you are trying to say here? > completely oblivious to his alienating half of the population. The goal of the author was certainly not alienating all women, and I think the result is also not so. I find it sad that I need to even mention it, but not all women think the same, and not all women agree on all questions, including this one. Of course, it may be that by "half of the population" you didn't mean women, then who? I must also note that you yourself don't feel particularly bad about alienating literally tens of millions of people. Which is completely your right of course, just adds a bit of strange flavor when you say how bad it is when others do it.
int_19h 9y ago
In general, I see people self-identifying as "classic liberal" when they want to underscore that they're not ancap, and value strong (but limited in scope) governments to protect property rights.
- ue_ 9y ago
  It's a shame that people (especially propertarians and "classical liberals") seem to be more concerned about property rights than fostering individualism.
  - thehardsphere 9y ago
    How do you get individualism if individuals can't own anything, including themselves?
    - ue_ 9y ago
      I take the distinction between private and personal property to be important, as Proudhon and later Marx described. >There are different kinds of property: 1. Property pure and simple, the dominant and seigniorial power over a thing; or, as they term it, naked property. 2. Possession. “Possession,” says Duranton, “is a matter of fact, not of right.” Toullier: “Property is a right, a legal power; possession is a fact.” The tenant, the farmer, the commandité, the usufructuary, are possessors; the owner who lets and lends for use, the heir who is to come into possession on the death of a usufructuary, are proprietors. If I may venture the comparison: a lover is a possessor, a husband is a proprietor. https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/proudhon/property/ https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/proudho... And to learn about why property is against individualism, I recommend Oscar Wilde's The Soul of Man Under Socialism and Bookchin's concerns: https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/wilde-oscar/soul-man/ https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/wilde-oscar/soul-... Even the Stirnerian egoists take issue with private property: http://www.spunk.org/texts/intro/faq/sp001547/secF4.html http://www.spunk.org/texts/intro/faq/sp001547/secF4.html
      - 9y ago
api 9y ago
I no longer use libertarian for the same reason I hesitate to use atheist. Head over to the relevant subreddits. Last time I visited /r/libertarian I saw people advocating the flat Earth, and /r/atheism is a hate sub. Like it or not those who use a term color it. I try not to self identify with terms used by idiots and haters.
thehardsphere 9y ago
What exactly are you implying? Perhaps the author is simply not a libertarian. Not everyone who identifies themselves as "classically liberal" is. Some people others would describe as "conservative" use that label also. I also don't see what using that term has to do with the author's debating ability. If anything, it's my experience that most people who use "classical liberal" have read all of those books and prefer to root themselves more in Burke's premises.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

CalChris 9y ago

There are no libertarian issues involved in this kerfuffle. This is a corporation, a free association of people, and an individual. If Google wants to shitcan the OP, von Mises is silent on the subject. The big bad state of CA is silent on the subject as well. And I don't think any classical liberals would find a kindred spirit in him regardless of how he labels himself. Also, he does say Stop alienating conservatives. So let's get that charade over with and just call him a conservative and dispense with any libertarian nonsense.

smsm42 9y ago
Your presumption is that only a conservative can be against alienating conservatives, and a true libertarian would be OK with whatever is done to conservatives - after all, he's not one, so who cares about those people?
- CalChris 9y ago
  You're kind've chasing your tail there. I wasn't aware that libertarians would be against alienating conservatives but then totally ok with alienating women because Hayek.
  - smsm42 9y ago
    > I wasn't aware that libertarians would be against alienating conservatives Because it's only not OK to alienate people who we agree with, but the idea of having civil discussion with people we disagree with... who needs that? Just call them names, chase them out and be done with it! Do you think this is the libertarian way? Where did you meet libertarians like these? > then totally ok with alienating women because Hayek. Err what? Who you are arguing with here? Nobody said it's "ok with alienating women" and Hayek has nothing to do with it. Could you please leave that strawman alone, he needs a well-deserved rest.
    - CalChris 9y ago
      I do not hold libertarians in any high regard. I generally find that ism to be a flag of convenience and that would definitely be the case with the OP. Again, the OP is concerned with Google alienating conservatives but then is completely oblivious to his alienating half of the population. Because what? Would you prefer Edmund Burke?
      - smsm42 9y ago
        > I do not hold libertarians in any high regard. That's your problem but hardly an argument to anything. > I generally find that ism to be a flag of convenience and that would definitely be the case with the OP. You are definitely wrong on the first part, to the point of being insulting and disrespectful to literally millions of people holding genuine libertarian beliefs (what is especially ironic here that I assume with high probability that you think it somehow serves the case for inclusiveness and tolerance). As for the second part, I see no way you could have any useful information about it, unless you personally know the author and he told you so. Do you? > Because what? Would you prefer Edmund Burke? I am sorry, I do not understand this comment. Could you make your point a bit clearer, if there's any? What exactly you are trying to say here? > completely oblivious to his alienating half of the population. The goal of the author was certainly not alienating all women, and I think the result is also not so. I find it sad that I need to even mention it, but not all women think the same, and not all women agree on all questions, including this one. Of course, it may be that by "half of the population" you didn't mean women, then who? I must also note that you yourself don't feel particularly bad about alienating literally tens of millions of people. Which is completely your right of course, just adds a bit of strange flavor when you say how bad it is when others do it.

int_19h 9y ago

In general, I see people self-identifying as "classic liberal" when they want to underscore that they're not ancap, and value strong (but limited in scope) governments to protect property rights.

ue_ 9y ago
It's a shame that people (especially propertarians and "classical liberals") seem to be more concerned about property rights than fostering individualism.
- thehardsphere 9y ago
  How do you get individualism if individuals can't own anything, including themselves?
  - ue_ 9y ago
    I take the distinction between private and personal property to be important, as Proudhon and later Marx described. >There are different kinds of property: 1. Property pure and simple, the dominant and seigniorial power over a thing; or, as they term it, naked property. 2. Possession. “Possession,” says Duranton, “is a matter of fact, not of right.” Toullier: “Property is a right, a legal power; possession is a fact.” The tenant, the farmer, the commandité, the usufructuary, are possessors; the owner who lets and lends for use, the heir who is to come into possession on the death of a usufructuary, are proprietors. If I may venture the comparison: a lover is a possessor, a husband is a proprietor. https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/proudhon/property/ https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/proudho... And to learn about why property is against individualism, I recommend Oscar Wilde's The Soul of Man Under Socialism and Bookchin's concerns: https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/wilde-oscar/soul-man/ https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/wilde-oscar/soul-... Even the Stirnerian egoists take issue with private property: http://www.spunk.org/texts/intro/faq/sp001547/secF4.html http://www.spunk.org/texts/intro/faq/sp001547/secF4.html
    - 9y ago

api 9y ago

I no longer use libertarian for the same reason I hesitate to use atheist. Head over to the relevant subreddits. Last time I visited /r/libertarian I saw people advocating the flat Earth, and /r/atheism is a hate sub. Like it or not those who use a term color it. I try not to self identify with terms used by idiots and haters.

thehardsphere 9y ago

What exactly are you implying? Perhaps the author is simply not a libertarian. Not everyone who identifies themselves as "classically liberal" is. Some people others would describe as "conservative" use that label also. I also don't see what using that term has to do with the author's debating ability. If anything, it's my experience that most people who use "classical liberal" have read all of those books and prefer to root themselves more in Burke's premises.