5 ms·

Modern construction, even when it uses good materials, is shit-tier, (I think) because labor's so expensive. For a while we lived in an upper-middle-class hous

by ashark 9y ago

Modern construction, even when it uses good materials, is shit-tier, (I think) because labor's so expensive. For a while we lived in an upper-middle-class house (at the time it was built) constructed around the time of WWI. National historic registry, the whole thing, but little reno or updating. The hardwood floors were intact but in terrible shape. Siding probably needed to be replaced. No air conditioning (Iowa, so summers hot enough for at least a month or so that you really want AC) inadequate gas heating, no insulation, etc. Point being that, even when occupied, the house experienced swings between ~55f in the winter and ~100f in the summer. The remarkable thing? It had incredible woodwork, just... everywhere. Bannisters, fireplaces, big wooden pillars with accompanying massive trim between rooms, everywhere. The doors were all custom built, paneled, and solid wood—they'd be considered top-end luxury today. It'd cost a fortune in material to do that now, the lumber was so good, but the really crazy part? The intricate joins and such were so tight you couldn't fit a piece of paper between them. I mean perfect, despite ~100 years of temperature swings like that. Good freakin' luck finding anyone who can do that today, and if you manage it, good luck finding enough money to pay them to custom-trim an entire house that way. It'd be off-the-charts expensive.

tcbawo 9y ago
From what I understand, a good portion of that woodwork was built on-site as well. The fine trim carpentry and plaster work of past eras was unbelievable. In many older houses, a lot of detailed trim was made from plaster. Prior to the specialization of careers in the modern industrial era, many people dedicated their lifetime to learning these skilled trades. Today, those skills are sadly rare.
lucozade 9y ago
Indeed. I live in a 1920's built Arts and Crafts style house. We had some carpentry work done a couple of years ago and the chap that did it also happened to specialise in period restoration work for the National Trust. He estimated that it would cost more to replace the downstairs oak paneling and staircase than it would to buy the house and land. A corollary to the labour cost also seems to be a reduction in high end craft skills. Modern houses don't have the features that require high end skills as they're too expensive so there's less demand for those skills. Another anecdote: it took us ages to find a plasterer who could do the ceiling in one of the bedrooms as the cornering was so complex and most refused to quote. Eventually, one of them put us in contact with a retired gentleman who did the work (at a quite reasonable price considering). Watching him work was amazing. The only time I recall being more impressed was, many years ago, seeing a spray painter paint a propeller as a template for the robot. It was a bit like watching dancing but to a micron (or so) tolerance. Masterful.
- lostlogin 9y ago
  Please could you explain the last paragraph a little more?
  - lucozade 9y ago
    Sure. For a while I worked at a company that made props for aircraft and hovercraft. We had a robot arm that painted them. This was about 20 years ago so it was fairly unusual, at least for me as an engineering student. The problem was that the software for defining the arcs that the paint gun needed to move through was, well, a bit shit. It always produced inconsistent thicknesses. Obviously, prior to getting the arm, the props were painted by hand. There was this one chap who was just incredible. He'd move his arm in a motion that followed the contours of the prop perfectly but at such a consistent pace that the paint was laid down beautifully. In the end they gave up with the software and just motion captured his arm movements so they could replicate it. It wasn't as good as he was but was close enough. BTW my job there was to design jigs for a batch of Spitfire blades that they were building. Someone had commissioned new 'planes to go with some Merlins that had been found at Rolls (if I recall correctly). I worked at Dowty who had made the original blades and landing gear so we were making them from the original blueprints. Was a lot of fun.
Sleeep 9y ago
With changing technology, I think we've actually sorta lost a lot of the early methods of construction. The world's last remaining whaling ship the Charles W Morgan, took 7 months to build in 1841 but 5 years to restore in 2008-2013 using the original shipbuilding tools and techniques (when possible).[1] I just imagine the craftspeople restoring the ship were learning the old techniques for the very first time. Ironically, she was supposedly built to only last 25 years. That might be just an urban legend tho. [1] https://www.newbedfordguide.com/charles-w-morgan-whaling-ship/2014/02/19 https://www.newbedfordguide.com/charles-w-morgan-whaling-shi...
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  > The world's last remaining whaling ship the Charles W Morgan, took 7 months to build in 1841 but 5 years to restore in 2008-2013 using the original shipbuilding tools and techniques (when possible). I'm not sure that's great evidence. Working with a historical artifact means you have to be more careful - it's more museum curation than construction. It's also generally slower to take something apart and rebuild it than to just put it together the first time.
- atmosx 9y ago
  I don't know if it's true but a guide at the Athens museum told us that it is not possible to match sculptures like Venus de Milo or the Caryatids. I am not sure why though. We are more advanced in everything now, but not in sculpture?
- lostlogin 9y ago
  Last remaining whaling ship? Unfortunately the Japanese whaling factory ships that come done this way are very real.
  - Sleeep 9y ago
    Oh, I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I meant the old school, obsolete, 19th century-type "golden age of whaling* ships, certainly not contemporary whaling. In my mind I (rightly or not?) consider that in a different category altogether.
arstin 9y ago
I really hope that there will be a shift back to supporting these sorts of skilled trades over the next generations. Is it too wishful to think it might happen as "industrial revolution" style jobs continue automating away and perhaps if UBI can provide a basic net? To some extent we're seeing it emerge already with "millennial artisanal X". Besides providing economic opportunities, this sort of work would also help some with the spiritual malaise which will no doubt continue to spread over the next century. As software engineers we are blessed with the opportunity for depth in craft much more than most workers nowadays, but we still live a fairly nerveless existence, with the tips of our fingers being just about our only meager contact with the world while the rest of our body atrophies. I've started learning woodworking with old hand tools, but so far it's just made me appreciate more just how skilled these old woodworkers were.

by ashark 9y ago

tcbawo 9y ago

From what I understand, a good portion of that woodwork was built on-site as well. The fine trim carpentry and plaster work of past eras was unbelievable. In many older houses, a lot of detailed trim was made from plaster. Prior to the specialization of careers in the modern industrial era, many people dedicated their lifetime to learning these skilled trades. Today, those skills are sadly rare.

lucozade 9y ago

Indeed. I live in a 1920's built Arts and Crafts style house. We had some carpentry work done a couple of years ago and the chap that did it also happened to specialise in period restoration work for the National Trust. He estimated that it would cost more to replace the downstairs oak paneling and staircase than it would to buy the house and land. A corollary to the labour cost also seems to be a reduction in high end craft skills. Modern houses don't have the features that require high end skills as they're too expensive so there's less demand for those skills. Another anecdote: it took us ages to find a plasterer who could do the ceiling in one of the bedrooms as the cornering was so complex and most refused to quote. Eventually, one of them put us in contact with a retired gentleman who did the work (at a quite reasonable price considering). Watching him work was amazing. The only time I recall being more impressed was, many years ago, seeing a spray painter paint a propeller as a template for the robot. It was a bit like watching dancing but to a micron (or so) tolerance. Masterful.

lostlogin 9y ago
Please could you explain the last paragraph a little more?
- lucozade 9y ago
  Sure. For a while I worked at a company that made props for aircraft and hovercraft. We had a robot arm that painted them. This was about 20 years ago so it was fairly unusual, at least for me as an engineering student. The problem was that the software for defining the arcs that the paint gun needed to move through was, well, a bit shit. It always produced inconsistent thicknesses. Obviously, prior to getting the arm, the props were painted by hand. There was this one chap who was just incredible. He'd move his arm in a motion that followed the contours of the prop perfectly but at such a consistent pace that the paint was laid down beautifully. In the end they gave up with the software and just motion captured his arm movements so they could replicate it. It wasn't as good as he was but was close enough. BTW my job there was to design jigs for a batch of Spitfire blades that they were building. Someone had commissioned new 'planes to go with some Merlins that had been found at Rolls (if I recall correctly). I worked at Dowty who had made the original blades and landing gear so we were making them from the original blueprints. Was a lot of fun.

Sleeep 9y ago

With changing technology, I think we've actually sorta lost a lot of the early methods of construction. The world's last remaining whaling ship the Charles W Morgan, took 7 months to build in 1841 but 5 years to restore in 2008-2013 using the original shipbuilding tools and techniques (when possible).[1] I just imagine the craftspeople restoring the ship were learning the old techniques for the very first time. Ironically, she was supposedly built to only last 25 years. That might be just an urban legend tho. [1] https://www.newbedfordguide.com/charles-w-morgan-whaling-ship/2014/02/19 https://www.newbedfordguide.com/charles-w-morgan-whaling-shi...

ceejayoz 9y ago
> The world's last remaining whaling ship the Charles W Morgan, took 7 months to build in 1841 but 5 years to restore in 2008-2013 using the original shipbuilding tools and techniques (when possible). I'm not sure that's great evidence. Working with a historical artifact means you have to be more careful - it's more museum curation than construction. It's also generally slower to take something apart and rebuild it than to just put it together the first time.
atmosx 9y ago
I don't know if it's true but a guide at the Athens museum told us that it is not possible to match sculptures like Venus de Milo or the Caryatids. I am not sure why though. We are more advanced in everything now, but not in sculpture?
lostlogin 9y ago
Last remaining whaling ship? Unfortunately the Japanese whaling factory ships that come done this way are very real.
- Sleeep 9y ago
  Oh, I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I meant the old school, obsolete, 19th century-type "golden age of whaling* ships, certainly not contemporary whaling. In my mind I (rightly or not?) consider that in a different category altogether.

arstin 9y ago

I really hope that there will be a shift back to supporting these sorts of skilled trades over the next generations. Is it too wishful to think it might happen as "industrial revolution" style jobs continue automating away and perhaps if UBI can provide a basic net? To some extent we're seeing it emerge already with "millennial artisanal X". Besides providing economic opportunities, this sort of work would also help some with the spiritual malaise which will no doubt continue to spread over the next century. As software engineers we are blessed with the opportunity for depth in craft much more than most workers nowadays, but we still live a fairly nerveless existence, with the tips of our fingers being just about our only meager contact with the world while the rest of our body atrophies. I've started learning woodworking with old hand tools, but so far it's just made me appreciate more just how skilled these old woodworkers were.