7 ms·
How to earn 'points' under Trump immigration plan?
- pmiller2 9y agoI'm a US citizen, born an raised in this country, and a working software engineer in the Bay Area. I'm not sure I would score 30 points on this system.
- lnreddy 9y agoThat is a feature, not a bug. The ideal US immigration system should only welcome extraordinary people into the country.
- gambiting 9y agoI do wonder why. The American dream was available to pretty much anyone willing to try it through the green card lottery. Someone with no money and no education could try coming to US and making it big like many other people before. Or is the green card lottery programme not being scrapped?
- k-mcgrady 9y ago>> The American dream was available to pretty much anyone willing to try it through the green card lottery. Your odds of winning are something like 0.2%. If you're one of those selected I believe there's still only a 50% chance you will make it through as they select twice as many 'winners' as they have spots available. I applied for about 8 years I think without success. I then stopped after realising I had nothing to gain from moving to the US. Also, the program is limited to persons from certain countries (for example if you like in England/Scotland/Wales you cannot apply).
- dakna 9y agoYou actually need quite a bit of money to be eligible for the diversity visa AKA green card lottery. One of the requirements is that you are able to support yourself for weeks/months while you are looking for a job. Proof of funds is required, and it better be around $10k per person. Having said that, I still think you are on point about the American Dream available for everyone willing to work hard. It just starts before you enter the US since green cards are not handed out that easily even though it is called a lottery.
- erispoe 9y agoThat relies on the premise that immigration of "ordinary" people is somehow detrimental to the existing US population. This is, to my knowledge, not supported by any fact or study.
- dublinclontarf 9y ago> That relies on the premise that immigration of "ordinary" people is somehow detrimental to the existing US population. How so?
- IanCal 9y agoIf bringing in ordinary people is beneficial, then it seems reasonable to say an ideal system would allow that.
- koolba 9y agoIf you accept the premise that immigration itself should be limited to a finite quantity (per time period, say per year), it's not a leap to reason that importing highly skilled people is better for the economy than low skilled people. Low skilled immigrants compete against low skilled workers that are already here and depress their wages. High skilled workers do the same thing but at the top end with the added advantage of generating more tax dollars and GDP (since they have more income). At its core the question becomes: Is immigration a public policy to benefit those that are here (ie strengthen economy, unify familial bonds) or a charity offered to the rest of the world?
- arethuza 9y agoSeems a bit harsh to describe immigration of people who are prepared to work and support themselves as "charity offered to the rest of the world". Edit: To be fair - I can see the argument for a supply of immigrant low skill workers potentially keeping wages depressed hitting existing US residents and while it might be good for the wealthy and businesses it might not be good for the majority. I'm in the UK and these arguments are very similar to those covered in the Brexit campaigns and while I voted Remain and I've since come to appreciate more of the arguments on the other side.
- dingo_bat 9y agoSo? US citizens don't need to qualify. They were born there so they already have citizenship.
- docdeek 9y agoThis seems pretty similar to Australia’s points system. http://www.border.gov.au/visas/supporting/Pages/190/points-table.aspx http://www.border.gov.au/visas/supporting/Pages/190/points-t...
- Kurtz79 9y agoThe main difference I see, is that unless you are a Nobel Prize or Olympic Medal winner, or a 26-30 yo with a PhD perfectly fluent in English, the only way to qualify is to have an existing job offer. If I'm not wrong, both in Canada and Australia you can apply and look for a job there, if you can prove you have enough funds and past work experience, in addition to similar age/education/language fluency requirements.
- dogma1138 9y agoYes, albeit the former is much more common in most other places. This is the same as the UK, there is virtually no way to immigrate under a work visa unless you are sponsored by a company (you still need to meet the point system). It's also not that easy to get into Australia or Canada on a Visa to look for work, even if you have sufficient points you are much more likely to be declined unless you have a job offer / sponsorship.
- sumedh 9y ago> you are much more likely to be declined unless you have a job offer / sponsorship. No that does not matter, if you have 60 points (for AUS) and there are open slots for that month you can apply for the visa. Preference is given to people who have highest points.
- dogma1138 9y agoThat does matter because at least in Canada you get a lot of points for having a job offer or if you have previously worked in Canada (the former gives more than the latter). I'm willing to bet that it's the same case for AUS. In most cases having a job offer is the the highest (points wise) score awarding qualification, in the UK currently you cannot qualify for a Tier 2 visa without this (simply won't reach the required points) but in any case in CA and AUS this puts you over anyone else without a job offer pretty much by default. Hence you are likely to be declined unless you are really over qualified for every other requirement but then it shouldn't be a problem for you to get a job upfront also.
- vim_wannabe 9y agoYou can try out the Canadian immigration points system here: http://www.workpermit.com/immigration/canada/canadian-immigration-points-calculator http://www.workpermit.com/immigration/canada/canadian-immigr...
- k-mcgrady 9y agoSurprised how easy this was without having a job offer.
- michaelt 9y agoFive points are awarded if an applicant has a job offer that will pay at least 150% of median household income in the state where he or she will be employed. [...] 13 points if it's 300% the median. I wonder why the median income is tied to the state rather than the nation? It means an oil worker paid $120,000 is worth 8 points in Texas, but only 5 points in Alaska.
- rypskar 9y agoProbably because extraordinary people gets higher salary, at least in theory, and points is to make it harder for ordinary peoples to immigrate. According to your numbers it is more special to earn $120k in Texas than it is to earn it in Alaska
- dogma1138 9y agoExactly for this reason, to allow states with lower income to be more competitive. 100K for a Software engineer might not cut it in SV, but it will allow smaller tech hubs in places where tech salaries are not inflated like i don't know Kentucky for example to attract foreign talent.
- j7ake 9y agoThe system grants 25 points to someone who has won a Nobel prize or something "comparable". Excuse my ignorance but what is comparable to a Noble prize ? I can think of the fields medal, anything else?
- docdeek 9y agoWikipedia has a list of prizes known as ’Nobel in field X': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prizes_known_as_the_Nobel_of_a_field https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prizes_known_as_the_No...
- microtherion 9y agoA Trump University certificate…
- pmiller2 9y agoIn math, the Abel prize, Wolf Prize, or Fields medal would most likely do it, as would winning any of the Clay Institute prizes.
- saimiam 9y ago(Not an economist. Current h1b visa holder about to leave the US to grow my company in India.) A country whose indigenous population growth is stagnating, whose indigenous population does currently not pick up all available jobs, whose economy is 6x as big as Canada and Australia combined is choosing to turn away immigrants. From a purely numerical standpoint, an 18T dollar economy built by 330M individuals will start to become unstable if the population starts falling and aging. This is a distinct possibility when you only invite highly educated, skilled immigrants since education negatively correlates to family sizes. Falling population will be another reason to push for more automation (see Japan) leading to wage stagnation. America, be careful what you wish for. Read this demographic report. It's eye opening. Childbirth rates are 1.82. If you bring in Nobel prize winners, you'll get brainy people who will not beget brainy kids. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Sta...
- cmahler7 9y agoHow about we spend the same hundreds of millions or billions incentivizing those smart people to have kids rather than importing uneducated people because they breed like rabbits? Bringing in millions of people who will most likely be reliant on government benefits while punishing successful people isn't a winning strategy. Only 13% of Germany's refugees have found work, not really helping GDP. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-survey-idUSKBN13A22F http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-su... 75% will still be unemployed in 5 years. https://www.ft.com/content/022de0a4-54f4-11e7-9fed-c19e2700005f https://www.ft.com/content/022de0a4-54f4-11e7-9fed-c19e27000... Instead of spending that money on welfare for uneducated immigrants spend it on paid leave for parents, health care, and better tax incentives for tax payers who have kids. You're basically promoting idiocracy the movie
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- reallydattrue 9y agoI would like the down-voters to explain why this is getting down voted. He is exactly right. Have none of you seen what's happening in Sweden, Germany and especially France? In France there have been many riots. All by immigrants who have low education, unskilled work and living off government welfare. This problem has been there since 20 years and has just bred another generation. Give it another 20 years and with the birth-rate as it is for immigrants, it will just get worse. There is a huge problem coming. With all these low skilled immigrants having their jobs being automated. What is the country to do with them? Oh thats right, more welfare. Well guess who is paying that. So dear "javascript" developer, you want more TAX? Because you are going to pay for it. That's why I'll never live in these countries. We are looking at 90% tax rate for the middle class. It happened in France for the high earners.
- gberger 9y agoSome quick math for an "average" college grad: - [Age] 22-25: +8 - [Education] Foreign BS: +5 - [English] 90th percentile (108 or more on TOEFL [0]): +11 This amounts to 24 points, needing 6 more to achieve 30. A job offer of 150% the median household income of the state is only +5 points, so the candidate would need a 200% offer. This means, using 2015 data [1]: - California: $64.5k -> $129k - Washington: $64k -> $128k - New York: $61k -> $122k - Massachussets: $70k -> $140k The numbers above are, obviously, higher than average, but certainly reachable for excellent software engineers at big companies. (It is unclear to me if other compensation components such as stocks/equity count toward the 200%.) However, if such candidate reaches the age of 26, earns a foreign MS in a STEM field, or obtains a perfect TOEFL score, thus earning an additional point or two, then she would need a job offer equivalent to only 150% the median household income. -- [0]: https://magoosh.com/toefl/2015/whats-your-toefl-percentile/ https://magoosh.com/toefl/2015/whats-your-toefl-percentile/ [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income
- AStrangeMorrow 9y agoI am a bit curious about the 90th percentile tho. "Anyone with less than a 60th percentile proficiency gets no points. Between 60th and 80th percentile is worth six points, someone in the 80th to 90th percentile range earns 10 points, someone with a 90th percentile proficiency or above earns 11 points, and someone in the 100th percentile range earns 12 points" I can't understand if it means, on a test with 1000 points, for the 90th percentile: 1.) you scored at least 900 points. Or 2.) you did better than 90% of the persons that took the test (That's what I understand by percentile. But it doesn't make sense since mathematically you can't have a 100th percentile. Except if you approximate 99.995 -> 100)
- gberger 9y agoA 100th percentile would probably mean a perfect score on the exam. https://magoosh.com/toefl/2015/whats-your-toefl-percentile/ https://magoosh.com/toefl/2015/whats-your-toefl-percentile/
- humanrebar 9y ago> Priority is given to prime working ages. Isn't this basically ageism, the kind that is outlawed federally? Perhaps the concern is about the economics of importing people who are harder to provide insurance or pensions for. But for that I could see a requirement for a certain level of insurance. Or a disqualification from entitlement programs for a while. To go straight to age ranking is disappointing.
- tallanvor 9y agoHiring laws do tend to outlaw discrimination based on age except in a few circumstances - there are laws specifying the minimum age to be able to sell alcohol, and there's an age at which commercial pilots have to stop flying. If congress didn't specifically include a provision to note that age discrimination laws didn't apply to this, it would likely end up being challenged in court, but I certainly couldn't say what the outcome would be. Other countries do this as well - it's not right, but the people developing this policy don't have an original bone in their body, so of course they're going to copy what other countries already have!
- humanrebar 9y agoU.S. laws only protect against age discrimination when workers are at least 40 years old. http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/rights-against-age-discrimination-29577.html http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/rights-against-age-di... The principle should certainly apply more broadly, especially when we're talking about legislation.
- eb0la 9y agoI'm wondering what will happen to the housing market in the US and Europe in case this bill gets approved. There is a market for middle-high income people that buys housing out of their home country just in case the political situation becomes unfavorable. In fact some countries give you residence if you spend a high amount of money on real estate.
- imron 9y agoIt's probably good for the locals if wealthy people living outside the country don't buy up housing stock for use just in case their country goes to pieces.
- moomin 9y agoHow many points under the new system are awarded for: 1) being tired 2) being poor and 3) yearning to be free?
- akhilcacharya 9y agoThis administration is afraid of refugees too, so probably negative.
- akhilcacharya 9y agoFor a group of people that keep saying they're cool with "LEGAL" immigrants, I'm confused - what is the need for a change?
- ausvisaissues 9y agoThe current H1b system has a cap, with more applications than positions. This is resolved via a "lottery". If you apply, you have a 30% chance of being selected. Indian outsourcing firms started to game the lottery (for every position have 3 applicants). The new system will resolve the above problem by selecting applicants with the most points (giving points for skills, etc...). From person experience H1b lottery is heart-wrenching, and makes it difficult to plan. The Australian system (which is similar to this system), is much better.
- geff82 9y agoFor all you non-Nobel-Price holders that aren't uneducated and want to live somewhere else: Germany welcomes you. Actually, having a bachelor's degree in the STEM field almost automatically gets you a visa for "searching work" for 6-12 months. If in that time you find a job that pays at least ca. 40.000 Euro, you get the "BlueCard" which leads to permanent residency after 2-4 years (depending on your German skills). If you are well qualified, but not in the STEM fields, about 60.000€ yearly salary paves the way. There is no point system, there is no maximum number of BlueCards, you don't have to be the best of the best (just "regular" well educated people) and you get your shot. We are just going through the process with a family member of my wife and it is surprisingly painless compared to most other German bureaucracy. In contrast to the USA, Germany is actively searching for more talent abroad and has reasonable acceptance criteria (never thought I would say this about my country...).
- DarqWebster 9y agoWhen I was backpacking, I entered Germany without a definite exit date and with no onward travel booked. Upon hearing this, the immigration official gave me a hard stare, and let me sweat for what felt like ages. He then cracked a smile and told me to visit the Foreigners Office if I wanted to stay for longer, or look for work. While I doubt that's the normal experience, including finding an immigration official with a sense of humour, I found Germany to be pretty flexible in this regard.
- geff82 9y agoWhat is your nationality?
- saimiam 9y agoCome to India. The demographic dividend of having a captive and growing billion strong market coupled with a vibrant media and democratic institutions make this a no brainer. Plus, once you make a name for yourself in India, the rest of the third world is yours for the taking. FD - See other comment about H1B holder fucking off back home to India to grow my company.
- chvid 9y agoI am curious - does anyone here from the us actually think this is an improvement compared to the existing h1b system?
- Klockan 9y agoIs it still a lottery?
- ausvisaissues 9y agoI will immigrate to US in Dec. and think it is a vast improvement. H1b lottery is a broken system which is gamed by outsourcing companies.
- nopinsight 9y agoI wonder if the Job Offer criterion is applicable to a startup co-founder who is employed as an executive in the company they co-found. If not then this would shut out the vast majority of non-PhD startup founders who do not already have a green card.
- dxbydt 9y agoHey, it's a decent MVP! If you sort by points and pick the top k, that's already better than H1B by a long shot. Getting to the threshold of 30 is hard but doable, and using standardized tests is a big plus to level the playing field. It's probably best to replace the "foreign degree" points with a standardized test as well. There's too much variance in quality when it comes to foreign degrees - depending on which univ you go to, the foreign degree may be better than Harvard or worse than the proverbial toilet paper. With such a wide variance, especially in vital fields like medicine, US currently relies on standardized medical tests like Step2, Step3 to admit FMGs - this cuts down on all the "fake doctors" since these tests are hard to game. You could do the exact same thing for STEM - wide variety of good standardized tests to choose from. In fact, this is a good startup opportunity to design and administer a standard battery of tests for any foreign BS discipline - there are "monopolies" like Prometrix who do such a shoddy job, startups can surely do one better. Now, like any good MVP, there will be a bunch of iterations where congress and lobbyists will tweak these points to ensure their pet cadres make the cut. Hopefully they don't fuck it up too much. Not a fan of this administration, but honestly, this is a competent first draft.