7 ms·

Lauren Southern. She was banned after throwing flares and attempting to block a ship (with no refugees on board) from leaving port to pick up refugees who she b

Lauren Southern. She was banned after throwing flares and attempting to block a ship (with no refugees on board) from leaving port to pick up refugees who she believes are being trafficked into Italy with the government's assistance. She was arrested for participation in this act of protest and then Patreon made the claim that her activities could have caused loss of life (which is ridiculous).

eropple 9y ago
The alt-right is not "middle-of-the-road conservative". The alt-right is literal-not-figurative fascism with memes and, occasionally, good dress sense. If you consider white supremacists (oh, sorry, white nationalists (oh, sorry, ethno-nationalists)) to be "middle of the road conservatives," there is a profoundly deeper problem in your calculus.
- mrkrabo 9y ago
  I'm not a fan of the alt-right but the fact is that it's here to stay.
  - eropple 9y ago
    Probably true. So we fight them. It stinks and it sucks, but it's on all of us to do so to the best of our ability and those of us who were dealt a more fortunate set of life's lottery balls (and I say this as an affluent, straight, white, cis American) have a duty to use our good fortune to help others.
    - biggerbistro 9y ago
      Isn't considering yourself lucky for being white a somewhat racist viewpoint? Perhaps you have more in common than you thought.
      - s73ver 9y ago
        The "if you acknowledge racism exists, then you're the real racist!" argument has never held water before.
    - bluthru 9y ago
      I want to help others. I also don't think it's a prerequisite to turn every majority white country minority white to help others.
- nostrebored 9y ago
  I didn't say that they are middle-of-the-road conservative. The alt-right is a meaningless catch all that currently means "conservatives or nationalists with strong opinions who I disagree with". For reference, I don't belong to the alt right, and I am economically conservative, socially moderately liberal. What makes you think that Lauren Southern is a white supremacist? Do you think that someone should be allowed to try to impede human trafficking operations? Do you think that in the absence of these NGO ships going out to sea that so many people would be drowning on rafts in the middle of the ocean? Because if Lauren is right, then you are suggesting that incentivizing a life-endangering risk for the purposes of being taken in to human trafficking is an ethical action.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- needz 9y ago
  > The alt-right is literal-not-figurative fascism What gives you this impression?
  - eropple 9y ago
    I can give you fourteen words. Or eighty-eight, if you'd rather.
    - nostrebored 9y ago
      To anyone who doesn't agree with you from the outset, you seem pretty incoherent right now. Why are they white nationalists? Because they're Nazis! Why are they Nazis? Because they're white nationalists!
    - needz 9y ago
      An answer will suffice.
  - hwillis 9y ago
    Most likely the association goes alt-right->white nationalism->fascism. The most common refutation is that the alt-right is not a white nationalist movement, but that is entirely beside the point. The alt-right is absolutely a nationalist and isolationist movement. It was also certainly started by white nationalists and white supremacists, and those two groups are still fully present and influential in the greater movement. Nationalism, race-cleansing and isolationism are not necessarily fascism although they are intimately related. There are a great number of fascists in the movement, including many who call themselves libertarians, but there are also a lot of people who are anti-authoritarian. Actual, literal fascists believe the government may take ultimate control of the economy and people to accomplish the goals of the nation, particularly in times of "emergency", which most of them believe this is. They do not believe in democracy under any circumstances, only in an umbrella of direct dictatorial control. So, taking that all together, does the alt-right overall meet the definition of fascism? Yeah, I think so. The alt-right's mandate is to prevent jobs from leaving the country, end international trade (mercantilism, in fact), and to bar immigrants. They're a little wishy-washy on foreign intervention and have strong opinions both ways. They want these goals to be accomplished through direct action by the president- convincing or ordering corporations to hire inside the country, and ordering an end to imports. They want to ban immigration for the safety of the country and many want to additionally protect cultural homogeneity. Trumps cabinet very much recalls Mousollini's corporatism, with energy company reps in charge of the EPA and secretary of state. Trumps whole thing is a lone wolf against the rest of the government, trying to take control and convert it to what it should be. That applies to the government, economy, and society. His alt-right supporters support that in one or more categories. To the alt-right, Trump is the only one who can restore jobs where they should be, restore the people to who they should be, and fix how people act and the expectations they have of each other. That's pretty textbook fascism.
fweespeech 9y ago
> She was arrested for participation in this act of protest and then Patreon made the claim that her activities could have caused loss of life (which is ridiculous). You don't get to go into other countries, break their laws, and expect private corporations to back you to the hilt. They are under no obligation to put themselves at risk for your beliefs. That isn't a reasonable expectation by any stretch of the imagination. Using the logic you are applying, you believe Patreon should be compelled to support the sales of "software" in the US even if its malware on the basis of free speech.
- nostrebored 9y ago
  Patreon had no liability in this situation. Patreon doesn't support the sale of software, and software as speech is a much murkier area than... actual, literal speech. This is effectively saying that investigative journalists shouldn't get too political in unpopular causes, lest they have their livelihood taken away from them. This is a suppression of free speech (not legally ofc) on a platform that syndicates political news and opinions. “it appears that you are currently raising funds in order to take part in activities that are likely to cause loss of life." This is taking a political stance; anyone on either side of rescue missions for refugees is funding something that is likely to cause loss of life. One is just politically en vogue.
  - fweespeech 9y ago
    > This is effectively saying that investigative journalists shouldn't get too political in unpopular causes, lest they have their livelihood taken away from them. This is a suppression of free speech (not legally ofc) on a platform that syndicates political news and opinions. 1) You are arguing now that journalists should have legal immunity. > Patreon had no liability in this situation. Patreon doesn't support the sale of software, and software as speech is a much murkier area than... actual, literal speech. 2) She was taking actions that physically prevented other people from taking actions. That isn't literal speech and is much further from speech than software is. > This is taking a political stance; anyone on either side of rescue missions for refugees is funding something that is likely to cause loss of life. One is just politically en vogue. 3) No. This is you attempting to frame outrageous criminal acts as "politics".

eropple 9y ago

The alt-right is not "middle-of-the-road conservative". The alt-right is literal-not-figurative fascism with memes and, occasionally, good dress sense. If you consider white supremacists (oh, sorry, white nationalists (oh, sorry, ethno-nationalists)) to be "middle of the road conservatives," there is a profoundly deeper problem in your calculus.

mrkrabo 9y ago
I'm not a fan of the alt-right but the fact is that it's here to stay.
- eropple 9y ago
  Probably true. So we fight them. It stinks and it sucks, but it's on all of us to do so to the best of our ability and those of us who were dealt a more fortunate set of life's lottery balls (and I say this as an affluent, straight, white, cis American) have a duty to use our good fortune to help others.
  - biggerbistro 9y ago
    Isn't considering yourself lucky for being white a somewhat racist viewpoint? Perhaps you have more in common than you thought.
    - s73ver 9y ago
      The "if you acknowledge racism exists, then you're the real racist!" argument has never held water before.
  - bluthru 9y ago
    I want to help others. I also don't think it's a prerequisite to turn every majority white country minority white to help others.
nostrebored 9y ago
I didn't say that they are middle-of-the-road conservative. The alt-right is a meaningless catch all that currently means "conservatives or nationalists with strong opinions who I disagree with". For reference, I don't belong to the alt right, and I am economically conservative, socially moderately liberal. What makes you think that Lauren Southern is a white supremacist? Do you think that someone should be allowed to try to impede human trafficking operations? Do you think that in the absence of these NGO ships going out to sea that so many people would be drowning on rafts in the middle of the ocean? Because if Lauren is right, then you are suggesting that incentivizing a life-endangering risk for the purposes of being taken in to human trafficking is an ethical action.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
needz 9y ago
> The alt-right is literal-not-figurative fascism What gives you this impression?
- eropple 9y ago
  I can give you fourteen words. Or eighty-eight, if you'd rather.
  - nostrebored 9y ago
    To anyone who doesn't agree with you from the outset, you seem pretty incoherent right now. Why are they white nationalists? Because they're Nazis! Why are they Nazis? Because they're white nationalists!
  - needz 9y ago
    An answer will suffice.
- hwillis 9y ago
  Most likely the association goes alt-right->white nationalism->fascism. The most common refutation is that the alt-right is not a white nationalist movement, but that is entirely beside the point. The alt-right is absolutely a nationalist and isolationist movement. It was also certainly started by white nationalists and white supremacists, and those two groups are still fully present and influential in the greater movement. Nationalism, race-cleansing and isolationism are not necessarily fascism although they are intimately related. There are a great number of fascists in the movement, including many who call themselves libertarians, but there are also a lot of people who are anti-authoritarian. Actual, literal fascists believe the government may take ultimate control of the economy and people to accomplish the goals of the nation, particularly in times of "emergency", which most of them believe this is. They do not believe in democracy under any circumstances, only in an umbrella of direct dictatorial control. So, taking that all together, does the alt-right overall meet the definition of fascism? Yeah, I think so. The alt-right's mandate is to prevent jobs from leaving the country, end international trade (mercantilism, in fact), and to bar immigrants. They're a little wishy-washy on foreign intervention and have strong opinions both ways. They want these goals to be accomplished through direct action by the president- convincing or ordering corporations to hire inside the country, and ordering an end to imports. They want to ban immigration for the safety of the country and many want to additionally protect cultural homogeneity. Trumps cabinet very much recalls Mousollini's corporatism, with energy company reps in charge of the EPA and secretary of state. Trumps whole thing is a lone wolf against the rest of the government, trying to take control and convert it to what it should be. That applies to the government, economy, and society. His alt-right supporters support that in one or more categories. To the alt-right, Trump is the only one who can restore jobs where they should be, restore the people to who they should be, and fix how people act and the expectations they have of each other. That's pretty textbook fascism.

fweespeech 9y ago

> She was arrested for participation in this act of protest and then Patreon made the claim that her activities could have caused loss of life (which is ridiculous). You don't get to go into other countries, break their laws, and expect private corporations to back you to the hilt. They are under no obligation to put themselves at risk for your beliefs. That isn't a reasonable expectation by any stretch of the imagination. Using the logic you are applying, you believe Patreon should be compelled to support the sales of "software" in the US even if its malware on the basis of free speech.

nostrebored 9y ago
Patreon had no liability in this situation. Patreon doesn't support the sale of software, and software as speech is a much murkier area than... actual, literal speech. This is effectively saying that investigative journalists shouldn't get too political in unpopular causes, lest they have their livelihood taken away from them. This is a suppression of free speech (not legally ofc) on a platform that syndicates political news and opinions. “it appears that you are currently raising funds in order to take part in activities that are likely to cause loss of life." This is taking a political stance; anyone on either side of rescue missions for refugees is funding something that is likely to cause loss of life. One is just politically en vogue.
- fweespeech 9y ago
  > This is effectively saying that investigative journalists shouldn't get too political in unpopular causes, lest they have their livelihood taken away from them. This is a suppression of free speech (not legally ofc) on a platform that syndicates political news and opinions. 1) You are arguing now that journalists should have legal immunity. > Patreon had no liability in this situation. Patreon doesn't support the sale of software, and software as speech is a much murkier area than... actual, literal speech. 2) She was taking actions that physically prevented other people from taking actions. That isn't literal speech and is much further from speech than software is. > This is taking a political stance; anyone on either side of rescue missions for refugees is funding something that is likely to cause loss of life. One is just politically en vogue. 3) No. This is you attempting to frame outrageous criminal acts as "politics".