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That's not the real difference though. Immigrants also have to restart from scratch. Everything in Canada is completely different from what we're used to in ou

by hasenj 9y ago

That's not the real difference though. Immigrants also have to restart from scratch. Everything in Canada is completely different from what we're used to in our countries of origin. Often, parents who were engineers in their home countries have to work blue collar jobs to make ends meet. I think the actual difference is in average IQ and other desirable traits like industriousness. Immigrants tend to be at the higher end while refugees tend to be at the lower end.

diegoperini 9y ago
If what you mean by IQ is "opportunity to access quality education before immigration", then you may be right. But in that case IQ becomes a function of wealth which is not that common among refugees. Inequality is not genetically but sociologically inherited.
- gasof 9y ago
  I think he meant IQ as in "intelligence quotent", which is what the word means. IQ tests are designed not to be influenced education levels.
chrischen 9y ago
I would say refugees tend to be on the more average end, rather than lower end.
foldr 9y ago
>I think the actual difference is in average IQ and other desirable traits like industriousness. Immigrants tend to be at the higher end while refugees tend to be at the lower end. Why would people fleeing war zones be on average less industrious or less intelligent? That doesn't make any sense.
- myth_drannon 9y ago
  Because of Canada's immigration policy, most of the immigrants are highly educated, they wouldn't be an immigrant if they didn't finish high school. Refugees is everyone else who couldn't immigrate and had to go the other route. So you might have a Sudanese immigrants who are highly educated and Sudanese refugees who are more likely to be illiterate (a bit generalizing but still). This is very different from US where you have a green card lottery and your typical immigrant is just an average population because everyone has the same chance of winning lottery, it doesn't matter if you are a farmer or aircraft engineer.
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  - foldr 9y ago
    He mentioned IQ and industriousness, not level of education. There is only a weak correlation. (And you are not likely to successfully make it from Sudan to Canada if you are lazy and stupid.)
    - hasenj 9y ago
      As far as I know, the correlation between IQ and education success is very strong. If it wasn't so, IQ would be totally meaningless.
      - foldr 9y ago
        Educational attainment is correlated with lots things. For example, there is a strong correlation between your parents' wealth and your educational attainment. Your argument would make sense if IQ were the only thing correlated with educational attainment, but it isn't.
        hasenj 9y ago
        What? There's no reason to think that educational success is a measure of one's parents wealth!
        devdas 9y ago
        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11763836/Wealthy-parents-create-glass-floor-to-ensure-children-succeed-regardless-of-talent.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11763836/Wealthy-pare... https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/02/occupy-kindergarten-the-rich-poor-divide-starts-with-education/252914/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/02/occupy-... Data disagrees.
- deleted 9y ago
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- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  I'm 42, just old enough that many of my classmates in school (in the USA on the west coast) were at the tail end of the boat people refugee exodus of ethnic Chinese from Vietnam. Well, Chinese are always smart and hard working right? It was still true, somewhat, as that was their stereotype in Vietnam as well. However, being a refugee means going through a much more traumatic process than being an immigrant. You are literally thrown from your home with little left and have gone through a difficult process to get out and resettled in a new country. So drug abuse, gang activity, crime, not doing well in school, depression, etc...were problems for that community even though given normal circumstances they would have been similar to other Chinese immigrants.
  - foldr 9y ago
    Right, but that has nothing to do with a lack of intelligence or hard work.
    - hasenj 9y ago
      You don't really know that. It could very well be the reason. People are not all equally intelligent or hard working.
      - foldr 9y ago
        Whereas you really do know it? What's your evidence?
  - hasenj 9y ago
    So you basically had the same observation as I had in a totally different community. I'm not sure about your explanation though. Chinese people are not magical people. IQ is still distributed on a bell curve in China as well. If a chunk of people from a country exhibit characteristics that indicate they might be on the lower end of the bell curve, they might just be on the lower end.
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
- hasenj 9y ago
  The above average people just establish a new life in a neighboring country.
Kluny 9y ago
Uh, no. I immigrated to Denmark. I went with a year's worth of savings, a place to live lined up when I arrived, a job and Danish lessons organized, and a fallback plan to return home if it doesn't work out. When you have time to plan, you start lightyears ahead of those who have to leave their homes on the run and go wherever fate takes them.

by hasenj 9y ago

diegoperini 9y ago

If what you mean by IQ is "opportunity to access quality education before immigration", then you may be right. But in that case IQ becomes a function of wealth which is not that common among refugees. Inequality is not genetically but sociologically inherited.

gasof 9y ago
I think he meant IQ as in "intelligence quotent", which is what the word means. IQ tests are designed not to be influenced education levels.

chrischen 9y ago

I would say refugees tend to be on the more average end, rather than lower end.

foldr 9y ago

>I think the actual difference is in average IQ and other desirable traits like industriousness. Immigrants tend to be at the higher end while refugees tend to be at the lower end. Why would people fleeing war zones be on average less industrious or less intelligent? That doesn't make any sense.

myth_drannon 9y ago
Because of Canada's immigration policy, most of the immigrants are highly educated, they wouldn't be an immigrant if they didn't finish high school. Refugees is everyone else who couldn't immigrate and had to go the other route. So you might have a Sudanese immigrants who are highly educated and Sudanese refugees who are more likely to be illiterate (a bit generalizing but still). This is very different from US where you have a green card lottery and your typical immigrant is just an average population because everyone has the same chance of winning lottery, it doesn't matter if you are a farmer or aircraft engineer.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- foldr 9y ago
  He mentioned IQ and industriousness, not level of education. There is only a weak correlation. (And you are not likely to successfully make it from Sudan to Canada if you are lazy and stupid.)
  - hasenj 9y ago
    As far as I know, the correlation between IQ and education success is very strong. If it wasn't so, IQ would be totally meaningless.
    - foldr 9y ago
      Educational attainment is correlated with lots things. For example, there is a strong correlation between your parents' wealth and your educational attainment. Your argument would make sense if IQ were the only thing correlated with educational attainment, but it isn't.
      - hasenj 9y ago
        What? There's no reason to think that educational success is a measure of one's parents wealth!
        devdas 9y ago
        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11763836/Wealthy-parents-create-glass-floor-to-ensure-children-succeed-regardless-of-talent.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11763836/Wealthy-pare... https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/02/occupy-kindergarten-the-rich-poor-divide-starts-with-education/252914/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/02/occupy-... Data disagrees.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
I'm 42, just old enough that many of my classmates in school (in the USA on the west coast) were at the tail end of the boat people refugee exodus of ethnic Chinese from Vietnam. Well, Chinese are always smart and hard working right? It was still true, somewhat, as that was their stereotype in Vietnam as well. However, being a refugee means going through a much more traumatic process than being an immigrant. You are literally thrown from your home with little left and have gone through a difficult process to get out and resettled in a new country. So drug abuse, gang activity, crime, not doing well in school, depression, etc...were problems for that community even though given normal circumstances they would have been similar to other Chinese immigrants.
- foldr 9y ago
  Right, but that has nothing to do with a lack of intelligence or hard work.
  - hasenj 9y ago
    You don't really know that. It could very well be the reason. People are not all equally intelligent or hard working.
    - foldr 9y ago
      Whereas you really do know it? What's your evidence?
- hasenj 9y ago
  So you basically had the same observation as I had in a totally different community. I'm not sure about your explanation though. Chinese people are not magical people. IQ is still distributed on a bell curve in China as well. If a chunk of people from a country exhibit characteristics that indicate they might be on the lower end of the bell curve, they might just be on the lower end.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
hasenj 9y ago
The above average people just establish a new life in a neighboring country.

Kluny 9y ago

Uh, no. I immigrated to Denmark. I went with a year's worth of savings, a place to live lined up when I arrived, a job and Danish lessons organized, and a fallback plan to return home if it doesn't work out. When you have time to plan, you start lightyears ahead of those who have to leave their homes on the run and go wherever fate takes them.