11 ms·

Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

124 points by supercanuck 9y ago

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
tomduncalf 9y ago
From a consumer point of view, this is a good thing. It sucks to have a different experience depending on whether something ships from Amazon or a third party, especially as their easy return policy is one of the main reasons I continue to use Amazon and pay for Prime. I can understand sellers frustration, but to my mind that's the price of having your products featured on Amazon. I've never encountered a third party who has refused a refund, so in reality I don't know if that much will change for them, unless there's a huge amount of abuse of the returnless refunds.
- dawnerd 9y ago
  I'm hoping this helps with console resellers. Hard to sell a console 100+ dollars over when someone can just return it when more become available.
- tyingq 9y ago
  The impact varies greatly by item. Things that are big and expensive to ship. Items that require some skill or patience to use. Items that can't be sold once again once returned. Items that people might use once, so it becomes a free rental.
- currymj 9y ago
  it's a good thing in the short term, but it also feels like an exercise of monopoly power by Amazon, which is going to be bad for consumers in the long run. can a business afford not to be listed on Amazon? in the long term, does Amazon have any interest in listing third parties? at some point I think the answer to both of these questions will be no, and then I'd expect the good customer experience to erode pretty quickly as Amazon realizes they can squeeze as much profit as they want out of customers and retailers.
  - komali2 9y ago
    I would expect that if Amazon stopped listing third party stuff, other sites would pick up the slack there, perhaps sites like Etsy?
    - settsu 9y ago
      Ebay.
      - komali2 9y ago
        Another good example, but I've definitely heard sellers complaining about ebay as well.
        olyjohn 9y ago
        One of my friends listed 3 pocket knives on eBay. After waiting a week for the auctions to close, 2 out of the 3 buyers said "Cancel my order, I'm not interested." So his auctions were totally screwed over, and he had to wait another week by setting up another auction. One of those re-posts had the EXACT same thing happen. Turns out that eBay won't do anything unless a user has failed to pay for 3 transactions within something like 90 days. That means you can go bid on an item once a month, not pay the seller, and have no repercussions. Because the transaction never completes, you can't leave feedback on the buyer.
  - petra 9y ago
    Amazon is interested in listing 3rd parties: it's useful to have someone else take all of the product risk , while you offer the ideal store for your customers and do all the more low-risk parts like logistics, managing a site, selling low-risk products directly while someone else supply excess demand.
    - jasonlaramburu 9y ago
      Frankly I don't see the benefit in this program for Amazon. 3rd party sellers often charge less, meaning less revenue for Amazon. The highly variable customer service also degrades Amazon's brand. Finally, Amazon still has to front the cost of any return/refund from a 3rd party seller, so there is still risk.
- c2h5oh 9y ago
  tl;dr; Only Amazon really benefits, buyers will eat the cost and their experience might be worse. Smaller sellers will suffer the most. Mostly it let's Amazon hire fewer people in support department - they don't have to deal with the occasional refused return ("I dropped this glass item on tiles and it broke into a million pieces, I'd like my money back. Do I have to ship it back to you?" - paraphrased actual return request) The only other plus side I see is that customers can ship the return immediately. Not much of a difference as sellers are now required to respond within 12h (7 days a week, including holidays) and if they fail to more than 5-10% of the time (I don't remember what the exact target is now) they risk having their Amazon account closed. From consumer point of view it's not a good thing: - it offers no new customer protection. sellers are already required to accept those returns (unless customer shoots themselves in the foot - see example above) and provide a prepaid shipping label (in most cases). Amazon enforces that - it removes the option seller has to accept a return that is out of policy - it increases the number of unnecessary returns (and having to reorder). Often a one sentence explanation/hint is enough - it doesn't make the cost of shipping to customer refundable, unless the customer lies about the reason why he's returning the item. Right now those false claims account for at least 3/4 of all returns (source: my wife runs a business that does part of the sales through Amazon, other sellers we know having the same problem) - it generates extra costs for sellers. that cost is ultimately paid by buyers From seller point of view it's not a good thing: - makes fraud easier. For a larger seller that's simply a cost of doing business that will be shifted to buyers anyway. For a small seller it can be end of business if for example a Chinese company that copied their product decides to make a couple dozen fraudulent returns (not that uncommon) - removes an option to use your own cheaper shipping label - even sending just a few hundred package a month gets you really nice discounts - removes an option to use your own shipping label that makes the return safer (like extra insurance or using a courier). ANYTHING customer ships back makes Amazon consider it a valid return - even if it's damaged, something completely different, etc the seller will have to provide a refund. It's next to impossible to stop that refund - removes an option to receive feedback from the customer making the return to improve in the future
  - threatofrain 9y ago
    I imagine there's a balance to be had somewhere, but offering superior customer assurance also means an increased willingness to buy from smaller vendors. We should ultimately facilitate a marketplace where both business and customer have confidence in their transactions, rather than lingering suspicions that they don't understand the deal and will have to eat the cost.
axaxs 9y ago
I do understand where sellers are coming from, but as a buyer, this would be a better relationship between them and myself. As is, I typically always prefer/only buy things sold or fulfilled by Amazon, because of this reason. This move would give me more confidence to begin more often considering third party vendors.
sharkweek 9y ago
Timely Onion article: "My Advice To Anyone Starting A Business Is To Remember That Someday I Will Crush You" http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/my-advice-anyone-starting-business-remember-someda-56539 http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/my-advice-anyone-starting-b... But in all seriousness... as a consumer, I shop on Amazon to not think twice about having to deal much with returns, shipping, etc. I understand that this is probably painful for a lot of people who built up businesses on the Amazon platform, but this is something that also seems pretty obvious.
notananthem 9y ago
Phew thank god. Next they need a robust anti fraud department in their marketplace.
fenwick67 9y ago
> Additionally, Amazon said that it's introducing "returnless refunds," a feature that the company said is "highly requested by sellers." The change enables sellers to offer a refund without taking back an item that may be expensive to ship and hard to resell. Wow, I can literally just say "I don't like it", and there's a chance they'll literally just give me my money back, but let me keep it?
- dawnerd 9y ago
  You can already do that on some things sold by amazon. Not that I've tried to but I've had more cases of amazon just telling me to keep things, especially if they took too long to deliver.
- spython 9y ago
  Anecdotally, they do it for stuff like pillows already, especially cheap ones - it's hard to resell, so they'll eat the cost.
  - heartbreak 9y ago
    I’ve had it happen when I ordered a CAT6 cable I ended up not needing. I tried to return it and they never send a shipping label. I called support and they said to keep it. This was ~2 years ago and an easy item to resell.
    - jermaustin1 9y ago
      I don't want a used network cable... Someone else's bits have been all through that. Gross.
- EGreg 9y ago
  Probably some kind of reputation system prevents this from happening all the time. Tuft and Needle lets you donate the mattress to a local shelter and get your money back.
- cableshaft 9y ago
  I mean, that's how digital refunds work, for the stores that support them. It's not like they need you to reupload the game code you downloaded from their server.
mi100hael 9y ago
> But increasingly, those upgrades come at the expense of sellers, who often build their businesses on Amazon and have few other places to generate revenue. That's a huge risk that's been known from the beginning, though. I feel for these sellers, but building a business that's 100% dependent on a 3rd party (especially one like Amazon that you're also in competition with to some extent) seems like a poor situation to place yourself in.
rfdub 9y ago
I am perennially amazed at the ire of sellers who build businesses on someone else's platform, and then complain when the purveyor of said platform changes the rules. If you want to get to determine the rules of the game, you have to build your own playing field.
- mattnewton 9y ago
  I don't think that's a fair viewpoint, it's not realistic for most businesses to create international commerce powerhouses to sell their bespoke goods. Complaining is the only realistic leverage they have in this game. When you get as big as Amazon it's reasonable to expect some concessions to the people who use your platform, just like if you get as big as GM your workers will want to unionize.
  - zapt02 9y ago
    The biggest leverage they have is threatening to leave the platform, which they should do.
    - wolco 9y ago
      If they grouped together it could be more effective. Leaving would be a stronger message.
  - qznc 9y ago
    So they should create an "Amazon Sellers Association" or something like that?
    - dgfgfdagasdfgfa 9y ago
      Well, they can go to jet.com instead. It's not like Amazon is without competition.
      - macintux 9y ago
        You say that, yet I'd never heard of jet.com.
falcolas 9y ago
Yes, this is very consumer friendly on the surface. But remember that Amazon operates is retail arm with little or no profit margin, even with the benefits of scale keeping their costs low. Small businesses don't have the same benefits of scale, and will be forced to close down when their revenue drops below their costs as a result of too many returns. And that is ultimately bad for consumers.
- sharemywin 9y ago
  Amazon doesn't need independent sellers anymore.
  - falcolas 9y ago
    I'd say that most of their listings are dominated by independent sellers; you can't even tell if Amazon is offering an object without digging into the "see more sellers". For example, find a coffee grinder sold by Amazon (note, not Amazon Warehouse Deals) https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_hi_eb?rh=n%3A1055398%2Cn%3A284507%2Cn%3A915194%2Cn%3A289750%2Cn%3A14092841 https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_hi_eb?rh=n%3A1055398%2Cn%3A2...
    - mywittyname 9y ago
      Amazon keeps indy sellers around so they can use shopping data to identify trends on high-margin, easy-to-produce good that can be readily copied and offered by Amazon for much cheaper. IMHO.
      - sharemywin 9y ago
        Plus if you sell on Amazon I bet you buy more too.
  - Sleeep 9y ago
    Third party sellers are a a cash cow - they take all the risks and Amazon is just a middleman. They make up half of Amazon's sales. Amazon's ultimate game plan may be to drop their retail business altogether and become just a logistics company.
javajosh 9y ago
It is outrageous, but it's not new. About 2 years ago I sold an item through the marketplace, shipped through Amazon, and at +30 days the buyer requested to return (my return policy stated no returns after 30 days). I ignored him, and then he filed a "Did not receive item" complaint with Amazon. They refunded him $250 and billed me $250. I fought it, using email, multiple phone calls (a trial in and of itself), showing them their own records of shipment, etc, the fact that the buyer had initially tried to return the item (and had sent messages to me saying he wanted to return it - implying that he had it). I haven't used Amazon to buy or sell anything since. And you know what? It's great! I use Discogs (and my local music store!) for music, Alibris (alas, no good local book stores remain) for books, Newegg for electronics. I haven't yet found a great source for ordinary household goods online, but the local Home Depot/Costco/Target have me covered. When they get drone delivery and a good online experience, I'll be stoked. In truth, I don't think Amazon can really compete within these niches. They get away with it because of an incredible focus on reducing transaction friction, and because they are usually "good enough" in so many categories. My worry is that Amazon will expand their monopoly, and then really start abusing it's customers, and they won't have anywhere to go. I guess I'm just saying don't wait for them to try and screw you out of $250, give up Amazon for a month, and see how it goes! I think you'll be surprised.
- EliRivers 9y ago
  On the subject of amazon alternatives, when I'm buying new books I check bookdepository.com (free international shipping!), wordery.com (free international shipping!) and booksplea.se (free international shipping!) first. They don't have the range of books that amazon does, but they beat amazon on price often enough to make them worth checking (and every so often, they really undercut amazon).
  - yarrel 9y ago
    Amazon own Book Depository. I recently had a run-in with their support department when they shipped me a book that was a) a photocopy of the original b) with a damaged cover. They were not willing to take any responsibility for this and made it very clear that they did not want to replace it. So I've soured on them.
gryzzly 9y ago
In Germany, there is a law that anything (I’m sure there are exceptions) sold online can be returned in the 30 days after delivery. So Amazon or not, companies must allow this anyway. Also some non-Amazon online stores offer "returnless refunds" for some items or just ship a new one to you in case of damaged item. Apart from forcing the vendors to pay for retouring the new policy is similar to German regulations and businesses seem to be OK here. Amazon could help (if it doesn’t already) vendors by providing some "rate" on a customer, if they buy a lot and return a little, then likely they are genuinely unhappy with product, and decide upon customer’s history if they are entitled to refund or if they are abusing the system.
- Maarius 9y ago
  Are you sure it is not 14 days? https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/So-funktioniert-der-Internet-Einkauf-2 https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/So-funktioniert-der-Inter...
  - gryzzly 9y ago
    Nope, stand corrected. I suppose some other non-Amazon vendors offer 30 days as an extension! Or maybe some types of products?
sharemywin 9y ago
Amazon doesn't need independent sellers anymore.
dclowd9901 9y ago
I wonder if this is a push for sellers to move their goods to Amazon warehouses... That said, Amazon should also provide buyer metrics to sellers so sellers can choose to sell items to customers unless that buyer has a "bad rating" (i.e. they do a lot of returns). This has a chance at being good for everyone if done correctly, but it seems like only half the equation has been implemented.
Leader2light 9y ago
eBay needs to reduce seller costs and they will take over with buying it now prices. Also no tax.
- Karunamon 9y ago
  eBay is already tremendously hostile to sellers before the fees. Can't leave feedback for buyers, a refund policy via PayPal that seems tailor made to allow scam buyers to get free stuff, and so forth. Basically it seems like the only thing a buyer can be sanctioned for is simple non-payment.
  - notfromhere 9y ago
    Also ebay's huge fees make it almost not worth bothering to sell on there.
    - dgacmu 9y ago
      Amazon's are as high or higher. https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/seller/registration/participationAgreement.html/ref=asus_soa_p_fees?itemID=200336920&language=en_US&ld=NSGoogle https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/seller/registration/part... The "referral fee" ranges from 8%, to 15% (common), and up. Up can go pretty high, but mostly for Amazon's own stuff. Ebay's are mostly just in the 10% range: http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/fees.html http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/fees.html
jasode 9y ago
It's interesting how each market platform is trying to tweak the equilibrium of honest/dishonest buyers vs honest/dishonest sellers. Beyond Amazon specifically, the big picture trend is that any marketplace of 3rd-party sellers which includes eBay, PayPal, Uber, Airbnb, etc will always tilt the advantage towards the buyers. E.g. Buyer scams sellers by claiming he got a bad product and Paypal will instantly issue a chargeback without any investigation. If sellers try to change the balance of power by shifting to a platform that's more favorable to sellers (e.g. p2p OpenBazaar, craigslist, etc), they'd have to calculate the revenue loss from a smaller marketplace (less buyers' eyeballs). It's going to depend on the type of items if the loss is worthwhile. E.g. If you're a seller that happens to have the unreleased iPhone 8 prototype to sell, you can use OpenBazaar to sell it because there would be plenty of buyers that don't need refund assurances from Amazon. If the item gives the seller leverage, the seller could also demand more buyer-unfriendly terms such as mandatory payment in Bitcoin instead of Paypal. When it's not a multi-sided platform, that's when rules can tighten up to favor the seller instead of the buyer. E.g. Costco stops generous 90-day returns on big-ticket electronics and computers because buyers were "renting" video cameras for free. (Cynical conspiracy hat on: it's possible Amazon expected the sellers' backlash and they don't care because this new policy was their way to cull the "weak" sellers that couldn't take the financial hit from returnless refunds. E.g. The "returnless refunds" policy would drive away shady Amazon Marketplace sellers that scam buyers with faulty USB-C cables: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10508494 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10508494)
- Judson 9y ago
  Anecdotal, but I've had the opposite experience on Airbnb. A situation arose where I would have certainly received a partial refund from a hotel, and when in arbitration, Airbnb sided w/ the seller (landlord?) and there was no refund. Basically my word vs the seller's, as things tend to be in online disputes. Not a lot of money spent, so it's not a huge issue, but makes me lean towards hotels unless Airbnb is much cheaper. As a seller on many of the other platforms mentioned (and as a CC merchant), you are correct. Good luck winning any dispute. Best course of action is to simply try and get the product back and take the hit on shipping.
- Domenic_S 9y ago
jonplackett 9y ago
From a consumer POV this is great. The only bad experiences I've had with Amazon have been with crap itmems from 3rd party sellers and then realising the postage to send it back is half the cost of the order and just letting it go.
jlukanta 9y ago
Thank God they are making this change. I had so much bad experience with returning items to 3rd party sellers that I vowed to never buy anything that is not directly sold by Amazon.
justinclift 9y ago
Arrrgh. Auto-playing audio suddenly starts among a forest of tabs. WTF is with that site. :( And yeah, obviously didn't get to read the article due to that idiocy. :(
sxates 9y ago
Anecdotal experience buying on Amazon recently: Bought a new induction cooking pan. A nice one at $90. Didn't really pay much attention to who was selling it, just bought it like I do everything else from Amazon. It took about two weeks to arrive because it was from an independent seller, and was not 'Prime eligible'. When it arrived, I took it out of the box and was immediately disappointed. It was really heavy, and the handle was shaped and angled in a way that made it hard to maneuver such a heavy pan. It'd be really difficult to do the usual flip and toss motions when cooking things. I didn't want to spend $90 on a pan I would hate using, so I put it back in the box and requested a return. That was when I found out exactly what the independent seller's return policy was. 1) I have to pay for return shipping (USPS best price was $38), 2) I have to pay them for the original 'free' shipping as well (no idea how much that was), and 3) I also have to pay a 25% restocking fee for an item in perfect resell-able condition. So in returning my $90 pan I figured I wouldn't get more than ~$30 back. I decided between being out $90 and having a pan or being out $60 and having nothing, I might as well keep it. So I suppose that was a win for the seller - they successfully discouraged me from returning the item, which I'm sure would have cost them money. But it also discouraged me from buying anything on Amazon that isn't Prime, and it doesn't reflect well on Amazon that I had an experience completely contrary to their customer service values.
- richthegeek 9y ago
  Wow, I really am amazed how few consumer protections you seem to have! In the UK we're protected on two levels: firstly the "Distance Selling Regulation" means we have the right to cancel many contracts/purchases made not-in-person within 14 days of delivery. And secondly, if a good is faulty, not as described, or unfit for purpose then we have a right to a refund under those terms also. Probably because of these already strong rights, Amazon UK (and most retailers) go beyond that and simply offer a 30 day "no questions asked" return policy in most cases. I didn't realise until now how much I took it for granted!
  - _Codemonkeyism 9y ago
    Similiar in Germany.
TorKlingberg 9y ago
It makes sense for Amazon to rein in third-party sellers. Amazon needs them to fill out the catalog and cover the long tail of products, but poor customer experiences damage Amazon's brand. I'm sure it upsets sellers, but this is part of selling through Amazon. If I have to email back and forth with the seller before I can return a defective item, why should I buy on Amazon instead of eBay?
holtalanm 9y ago
Observation: Don't care in the slightest about the third-party vendors' complaints. Amazon can control THEIR SITE how they want to control it. They own the site. Don't like their policies? Take your shop elsewhere. I already stopped trusting third-party vendors on Amazon a LONG time again.
xchefhatx 9y ago
Last year I made a little over $500k GROSS selling games on Amazon. This policy change is going to be a nightmare because fraud and bootlegging are rampant on their platform. Small businesses and large ones too are being forced to become sharecroppers for Amazon if they want to stay in business.
- losteverything 9y ago
  The article mentioned sites sellers complain on. Do u read post to any? Which ones
mnm1 9y ago
Amazon has no qualms about fucking over their customers and closing accounts for unspecified policy violations of non-existent policy. Now they're fucking over their vendors too. Maybe they actually have written policy this time? Anyway, everyone can now get fucked over by Amazon, vendor or customer. In the end everyone stands to lose while only Amazon stands to gain.
TallGuyShort 9y ago
Are that many people returning items for any reason other than the item not being as advertised in some way? If I don't get the item in the state that it was advertised in, I'm already getting a refund one way or another: either through the seller or by doing a charge back on my credit card if the seller drags their feet for more than a few weeks or is giving me BS. And I just flat out won't buy from a seller that won't shoulder the responsibility if the item is damaged or defective. I suppose some people might return an item because they changed their mind or misjudged what they needed, but I online shop a lot and I've literally never demanded a refund for something like that. Surely it can't be that bad...
holydude 9y ago
I am a big fan of internet platforms and everything but I just do not see a value in online shopping for physical goods. Sure it might be a good thing for shopping "disposable/every day use stuff" but why would I be buying something like a cooking pan (as someone mentioned) online ? If you know the cooking pan you want then yeah i agree amazong might be the most convenient thing but for stuff like that I just want to see them first and maybe I might buy other related stuff if I see it goes well together. And I am telling you all this as a person that hates shopping in person.
- stordoff 9y ago
  > why would I be buying something like a cooking pan (as someone mentioned) online I don't know if similar applies to the US, but at least in the UK you get stronger protections when buying online (because you can't inspect the item before hand). If I buy stuff in person, then find it is not suitable for what I need, I might be stuck with it depending on the store (assuming it is as described and not faulty). If I buy it online, I can just send it back (possibly paying postage costs, but most places offer free returns). For instance I've got a external hard drive on its way back to Amazon because, after testing, found that the performance isn't up to snuff. Had I purchased it in person, I may not have been able to return after use (because the packaging doesn't make any claims regarding performance, it'd be difficult to claim it is faulty/not as described).
- Sleeep 9y ago
  I can think of a few reasons: Bigger marketplace/choices Convenience - I don't have to wait until the store opens. I don't have to drive around to 10 different stores for 10 different products Not everyone has has easy access to the stores they need to go to Price Time - I can order a pan while waiting for a client to arrive or commuting on the train. Search and comparison tools (There's disadvantages too, of course.)
adventured 9y ago
This is very, very good for Walmart and competition between Walmart and Amazon online. Walmart has been making an aggressive effort to recruit sellers. They'll use this mistake by Amazon to their advantage. It'll also open up opportunities for other platforms such as eBay and perhaps something that doesn't yet exist. This is a mistake of perceived power by Amazon, I imagine they're going to make a lot more of them in the coming years.
eddigo 9y ago
This is what Walmart has been doing for quite a long time. They will essentially take any return and charge the vendor for it. My mom used to work as a bookkeeper for a garment company and the owners were thrilled when they landed Walmart. She said dealing with Walmart was a full-time job and they were ruthless in their tactics. They started to receive a large number of returns, and Walmart would deduct the cost (item cost, shipping, processing, etc) from their payments owed. I believe she also said they were Net-90. So you basically ship them 3 months worth of goods and you're left holding your dick for a while. Most of the items they received back weren't in saleable condition, so it was a loss. The company owners decided to let Walmart deal with those items instead of having them shipped back. It turns out Walmart was donating those items and getting a tax write-off. When my mom figured this out, she suggested that her company do this instead of letting Walmart do it. It helped offset some of the costs of doing business with them. The point is, when you deal with a distributor like Amazon or Walmart, it can bankrupt you if you aren't ready to deal with the volume and draconian policies. So these small businesses are right to be pissed and scared.
bigtunacan 9y ago
My experience on Amazon is that I try not to buy from sellers that aren't shipping directly through Amazon even if it's a lower price due to too many issues. I broke my rule recently yet again and purchased a "new" book on Amazon from a third seller that was about 1/2 the price of any Amazon shipper for the same item. When it arrived the book was not only not new, but was seriously damaged. Pages were all stuck together where the book must have been wet at some time, a bunch of the pages were torn. This thing was damaged so badly that I about 1/3 of the pages aren't even readable. I contacted the seller and they told me they would send a replacement "right away". That was a month ago and still no replacement, but they have a "no refunds" policy. =============Edit========= Here's a picture of this "new" book. The packaging was not damaged at all so this had to be an issue with the reseller rather than USPS. http://imgur.com/a/UjOSt http://imgur.com/a/UjOSt
- Sleeep 9y ago
  Just contact Amazon directly they will give you your money back right away. Same exact thing happened to me. When the seller balked I went right to Amazon. (Was this shipped from India by any chance? Mine was.)
  - bigtunacan 9y ago
    Yeah, that's what I'll end up doing as well. This was shipped from Michigan.

124 points by supercanuck 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

From a consumer point of view, this is a good thing. It sucks to have a different experience depending on whether something ships from Amazon or a third party, especially as their easy return policy is one of the main reasons I continue to use Amazon and pay for Prime. I can understand sellers frustration, but to my mind that's the price of having your products featured on Amazon. I've never encountered a third party who has refused a refund, so in reality I don't know if that much will change for them, unless there's a huge amount of abuse of the returnless refunds.

dawnerd 9y ago
I'm hoping this helps with console resellers. Hard to sell a console 100+ dollars over when someone can just return it when more become available.
tyingq 9y ago
The impact varies greatly by item. Things that are big and expensive to ship. Items that require some skill or patience to use. Items that can't be sold once again once returned. Items that people might use once, so it becomes a free rental.
currymj 9y ago
it's a good thing in the short term, but it also feels like an exercise of monopoly power by Amazon, which is going to be bad for consumers in the long run. can a business afford not to be listed on Amazon? in the long term, does Amazon have any interest in listing third parties? at some point I think the answer to both of these questions will be no, and then I'd expect the good customer experience to erode pretty quickly as Amazon realizes they can squeeze as much profit as they want out of customers and retailers.
- komali2 9y ago
  I would expect that if Amazon stopped listing third party stuff, other sites would pick up the slack there, perhaps sites like Etsy?
  - settsu 9y ago
    Ebay.
    - komali2 9y ago
      Another good example, but I've definitely heard sellers complaining about ebay as well.
      - olyjohn 9y ago
        One of my friends listed 3 pocket knives on eBay. After waiting a week for the auctions to close, 2 out of the 3 buyers said "Cancel my order, I'm not interested." So his auctions were totally screwed over, and he had to wait another week by setting up another auction. One of those re-posts had the EXACT same thing happen. Turns out that eBay won't do anything unless a user has failed to pay for 3 transactions within something like 90 days. That means you can go bid on an item once a month, not pay the seller, and have no repercussions. Because the transaction never completes, you can't leave feedback on the buyer.
- petra 9y ago
  Amazon is interested in listing 3rd parties: it's useful to have someone else take all of the product risk , while you offer the ideal store for your customers and do all the more low-risk parts like logistics, managing a site, selling low-risk products directly while someone else supply excess demand.
  - jasonlaramburu 9y ago
    Frankly I don't see the benefit in this program for Amazon. 3rd party sellers often charge less, meaning less revenue for Amazon. The highly variable customer service also degrades Amazon's brand. Finally, Amazon still has to front the cost of any return/refund from a 3rd party seller, so there is still risk.
c2h5oh 9y ago
tl;dr; Only Amazon really benefits, buyers will eat the cost and their experience might be worse. Smaller sellers will suffer the most. Mostly it let's Amazon hire fewer people in support department - they don't have to deal with the occasional refused return ("I dropped this glass item on tiles and it broke into a million pieces, I'd like my money back. Do I have to ship it back to you?" - paraphrased actual return request) The only other plus side I see is that customers can ship the return immediately. Not much of a difference as sellers are now required to respond within 12h (7 days a week, including holidays) and if they fail to more than 5-10% of the time (I don't remember what the exact target is now) they risk having their Amazon account closed. From consumer point of view it's not a good thing: - it offers no new customer protection. sellers are already required to accept those returns (unless customer shoots themselves in the foot - see example above) and provide a prepaid shipping label (in most cases). Amazon enforces that - it removes the option seller has to accept a return that is out of policy - it increases the number of unnecessary returns (and having to reorder). Often a one sentence explanation/hint is enough - it doesn't make the cost of shipping to customer refundable, unless the customer lies about the reason why he's returning the item. Right now those false claims account for at least 3/4 of all returns (source: my wife runs a business that does part of the sales through Amazon, other sellers we know having the same problem) - it generates extra costs for sellers. that cost is ultimately paid by buyers From seller point of view it's not a good thing: - makes fraud easier. For a larger seller that's simply a cost of doing business that will be shifted to buyers anyway. For a small seller it can be end of business if for example a Chinese company that copied their product decides to make a couple dozen fraudulent returns (not that uncommon) - removes an option to use your own cheaper shipping label - even sending just a few hundred package a month gets you really nice discounts - removes an option to use your own shipping label that makes the return safer (like extra insurance or using a courier). ANYTHING customer ships back makes Amazon consider it a valid return - even if it's damaged, something completely different, etc the seller will have to provide a refund. It's next to impossible to stop that refund - removes an option to receive feedback from the customer making the return to improve in the future
- threatofrain 9y ago
  I imagine there's a balance to be had somewhere, but offering superior customer assurance also means an increased willingness to buy from smaller vendors. We should ultimately facilitate a marketplace where both business and customer have confidence in their transactions, rather than lingering suspicions that they don't understand the deal and will have to eat the cost.

axaxs 9y ago

I do understand where sellers are coming from, but as a buyer, this would be a better relationship between them and myself. As is, I typically always prefer/only buy things sold or fulfilled by Amazon, because of this reason. This move would give me more confidence to begin more often considering third party vendors.

sharkweek 9y ago

Timely Onion article: "My Advice To Anyone Starting A Business Is To Remember That Someday I Will Crush You" http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/my-advice-anyone-starting-business-remember-someda-56539 http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/my-advice-anyone-starting-b... But in all seriousness... as a consumer, I shop on Amazon to not think twice about having to deal much with returns, shipping, etc. I understand that this is probably painful for a lot of people who built up businesses on the Amazon platform, but this is something that also seems pretty obvious.

notananthem 9y ago

Phew thank god. Next they need a robust anti fraud department in their marketplace.

fenwick67 9y ago

> Additionally, Amazon said that it's introducing "returnless refunds," a feature that the company said is "highly requested by sellers." The change enables sellers to offer a refund without taking back an item that may be expensive to ship and hard to resell. Wow, I can literally just say "I don't like it", and there's a chance they'll literally just give me my money back, but let me keep it?

dawnerd 9y ago
You can already do that on some things sold by amazon. Not that I've tried to but I've had more cases of amazon just telling me to keep things, especially if they took too long to deliver.
spython 9y ago
Anecdotally, they do it for stuff like pillows already, especially cheap ones - it's hard to resell, so they'll eat the cost.
- heartbreak 9y ago
  I’ve had it happen when I ordered a CAT6 cable I ended up not needing. I tried to return it and they never send a shipping label. I called support and they said to keep it. This was ~2 years ago and an easy item to resell.
  - jermaustin1 9y ago
    I don't want a used network cable... Someone else's bits have been all through that. Gross.
EGreg 9y ago
Probably some kind of reputation system prevents this from happening all the time. Tuft and Needle lets you donate the mattress to a local shelter and get your money back.
cableshaft 9y ago
I mean, that's how digital refunds work, for the stores that support them. It's not like they need you to reupload the game code you downloaded from their server.

mi100hael 9y ago

> But increasingly, those upgrades come at the expense of sellers, who often build their businesses on Amazon and have few other places to generate revenue. That's a huge risk that's been known from the beginning, though. I feel for these sellers, but building a business that's 100% dependent on a 3rd party (especially one like Amazon that you're also in competition with to some extent) seems like a poor situation to place yourself in.

rfdub 9y ago

I am perennially amazed at the ire of sellers who build businesses on someone else's platform, and then complain when the purveyor of said platform changes the rules. If you want to get to determine the rules of the game, you have to build your own playing field.

mattnewton 9y ago
I don't think that's a fair viewpoint, it's not realistic for most businesses to create international commerce powerhouses to sell their bespoke goods. Complaining is the only realistic leverage they have in this game. When you get as big as Amazon it's reasonable to expect some concessions to the people who use your platform, just like if you get as big as GM your workers will want to unionize.
- zapt02 9y ago
  The biggest leverage they have is threatening to leave the platform, which they should do.
  - wolco 9y ago
    If they grouped together it could be more effective. Leaving would be a stronger message.
- qznc 9y ago
  So they should create an "Amazon Sellers Association" or something like that?
  - dgfgfdagasdfgfa 9y ago
    Well, they can go to jet.com instead. It's not like Amazon is without competition.
    - macintux 9y ago
      You say that, yet I'd never heard of jet.com.

falcolas 9y ago

Yes, this is very consumer friendly on the surface. But remember that Amazon operates is retail arm with little or no profit margin, even with the benefits of scale keeping their costs low. Small businesses don't have the same benefits of scale, and will be forced to close down when their revenue drops below their costs as a result of too many returns. And that is ultimately bad for consumers.

sharemywin 9y ago
Amazon doesn't need independent sellers anymore.
- falcolas 9y ago
  I'd say that most of their listings are dominated by independent sellers; you can't even tell if Amazon is offering an object without digging into the "see more sellers". For example, find a coffee grinder sold by Amazon (note, not Amazon Warehouse Deals) https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_hi_eb?rh=n%3A1055398%2Cn%3A284507%2Cn%3A915194%2Cn%3A289750%2Cn%3A14092841 https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_hi_eb?rh=n%3A1055398%2Cn%3A2...
  - mywittyname 9y ago
    Amazon keeps indy sellers around so they can use shopping data to identify trends on high-margin, easy-to-produce good that can be readily copied and offered by Amazon for much cheaper. IMHO.
    - sharemywin 9y ago
      Plus if you sell on Amazon I bet you buy more too.
- Sleeep 9y ago
  Third party sellers are a a cash cow - they take all the risks and Amazon is just a middleman. They make up half of Amazon's sales. Amazon's ultimate game plan may be to drop their retail business altogether and become just a logistics company.

javajosh 9y ago

It is outrageous, but it's not new. About 2 years ago I sold an item through the marketplace, shipped through Amazon, and at +30 days the buyer requested to return (my return policy stated no returns after 30 days). I ignored him, and then he filed a "Did not receive item" complaint with Amazon. They refunded him $250 and billed me $250. I fought it, using email, multiple phone calls (a trial in and of itself), showing them their own records of shipment, etc, the fact that the buyer had initially tried to return the item (and had sent messages to me saying he wanted to return it - implying that he had it). I haven't used Amazon to buy or sell anything since. And you know what? It's great! I use Discogs (and my local music store!) for music, Alibris (alas, no good local book stores remain) for books, Newegg for electronics. I haven't yet found a great source for ordinary household goods online, but the local Home Depot/Costco/Target have me covered. When they get drone delivery and a good online experience, I'll be stoked. In truth, I don't think Amazon can really compete within these niches. They get away with it because of an incredible focus on reducing transaction friction, and because they are usually "good enough" in so many categories. My worry is that Amazon will expand their monopoly, and then really start abusing it's customers, and they won't have anywhere to go. I guess I'm just saying don't wait for them to try and screw you out of $250, give up Amazon for a month, and see how it goes! I think you'll be surprised.

EliRivers 9y ago
On the subject of amazon alternatives, when I'm buying new books I check bookdepository.com (free international shipping!), wordery.com (free international shipping!) and booksplea.se (free international shipping!) first. They don't have the range of books that amazon does, but they beat amazon on price often enough to make them worth checking (and every so often, they really undercut amazon).
- yarrel 9y ago
  Amazon own Book Depository. I recently had a run-in with their support department when they shipped me a book that was a) a photocopy of the original b) with a damaged cover. They were not willing to take any responsibility for this and made it very clear that they did not want to replace it. So I've soured on them.

gryzzly 9y ago

In Germany, there is a law that anything (I’m sure there are exceptions) sold online can be returned in the 30 days after delivery. So Amazon or not, companies must allow this anyway. Also some non-Amazon online stores offer "returnless refunds" for some items or just ship a new one to you in case of damaged item. Apart from forcing the vendors to pay for retouring the new policy is similar to German regulations and businesses seem to be OK here. Amazon could help (if it doesn’t already) vendors by providing some "rate" on a customer, if they buy a lot and return a little, then likely they are genuinely unhappy with product, and decide upon customer’s history if they are entitled to refund or if they are abusing the system.

Maarius 9y ago
Are you sure it is not 14 days? https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/So-funktioniert-der-Internet-Einkauf-2 https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/So-funktioniert-der-Inter...
- gryzzly 9y ago
  Nope, stand corrected. I suppose some other non-Amazon vendors offer 30 days as an extension! Or maybe some types of products?

sharemywin 9y ago

Amazon doesn't need independent sellers anymore.

dclowd9901 9y ago

I wonder if this is a push for sellers to move their goods to Amazon warehouses... That said, Amazon should also provide buyer metrics to sellers so sellers can choose to sell items to customers unless that buyer has a "bad rating" (i.e. they do a lot of returns). This has a chance at being good for everyone if done correctly, but it seems like only half the equation has been implemented.

Leader2light 9y ago

eBay needs to reduce seller costs and they will take over with buying it now prices. Also no tax.

Karunamon 9y ago
eBay is already tremendously hostile to sellers before the fees. Can't leave feedback for buyers, a refund policy via PayPal that seems tailor made to allow scam buyers to get free stuff, and so forth. Basically it seems like the only thing a buyer can be sanctioned for is simple non-payment.
- notfromhere 9y ago
  Also ebay's huge fees make it almost not worth bothering to sell on there.
  - dgacmu 9y ago
    Amazon's are as high or higher. https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/seller/registration/participationAgreement.html/ref=asus_soa_p_fees?itemID=200336920&language=en_US&ld=NSGoogle https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/seller/registration/part... The "referral fee" ranges from 8%, to 15% (common), and up. Up can go pretty high, but mostly for Amazon's own stuff. Ebay's are mostly just in the 10% range: http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/fees.html http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/fees.html

jasode 9y ago

It's interesting how each market platform is trying to tweak the equilibrium of honest/dishonest buyers vs honest/dishonest sellers. Beyond Amazon specifically, the big picture trend is that any marketplace of 3rd-party sellers which includes eBay, PayPal, Uber, Airbnb, etc will always tilt the advantage towards the buyers. E.g. Buyer scams sellers by claiming he got a bad product and Paypal will instantly issue a chargeback without any investigation. If sellers try to change the balance of power by shifting to a platform that's more favorable to sellers (e.g. p2p OpenBazaar, craigslist, etc), they'd have to calculate the revenue loss from a smaller marketplace (less buyers' eyeballs). It's going to depend on the type of items if the loss is worthwhile. E.g. If you're a seller that happens to have the unreleased iPhone 8 prototype to sell, you can use OpenBazaar to sell it because there would be plenty of buyers that don't need refund assurances from Amazon. If the item gives the seller leverage, the seller could also demand more buyer-unfriendly terms such as mandatory payment in Bitcoin instead of Paypal. When it's not a multi-sided platform, that's when rules can tighten up to favor the seller instead of the buyer. E.g. Costco stops generous 90-day returns on big-ticket electronics and computers because buyers were "renting" video cameras for free. (Cynical conspiracy hat on: it's possible Amazon expected the sellers' backlash and they don't care because this new policy was their way to cull the "weak" sellers that couldn't take the financial hit from returnless refunds. E.g. The "returnless refunds" policy would drive away shady Amazon Marketplace sellers that scam buyers with faulty USB-C cables: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10508494 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10508494)

Judson 9y ago
Anecdotal, but I've had the opposite experience on Airbnb. A situation arose where I would have certainly received a partial refund from a hotel, and when in arbitration, Airbnb sided w/ the seller (landlord?) and there was no refund. Basically my word vs the seller's, as things tend to be in online disputes. Not a lot of money spent, so it's not a huge issue, but makes me lean towards hotels unless Airbnb is much cheaper. As a seller on many of the other platforms mentioned (and as a CC merchant), you are correct. Good luck winning any dispute. Best course of action is to simply try and get the product back and take the hit on shipping.
Domenic_S 9y ago

jonplackett 9y ago

From a consumer POV this is great. The only bad experiences I've had with Amazon have been with crap itmems from 3rd party sellers and then realising the postage to send it back is half the cost of the order and just letting it go.

jlukanta 9y ago

Thank God they are making this change. I had so much bad experience with returning items to 3rd party sellers that I vowed to never buy anything that is not directly sold by Amazon.

justinclift 9y ago

Arrrgh. Auto-playing audio suddenly starts among a forest of tabs. WTF is with that site. :( And yeah, obviously didn't get to read the article due to that idiocy. :(

sxates 9y ago

Anecdotal experience buying on Amazon recently: Bought a new induction cooking pan. A nice one at $90. Didn't really pay much attention to who was selling it, just bought it like I do everything else from Amazon. It took about two weeks to arrive because it was from an independent seller, and was not 'Prime eligible'. When it arrived, I took it out of the box and was immediately disappointed. It was really heavy, and the handle was shaped and angled in a way that made it hard to maneuver such a heavy pan. It'd be really difficult to do the usual flip and toss motions when cooking things. I didn't want to spend $90 on a pan I would hate using, so I put it back in the box and requested a return. That was when I found out exactly what the independent seller's return policy was. 1) I have to pay for return shipping (USPS best price was $38), 2) I have to pay them for the original 'free' shipping as well (no idea how much that was), and 3) I also have to pay a 25% restocking fee for an item in perfect resell-able condition. So in returning my $90 pan I figured I wouldn't get more than ~$30 back. I decided between being out $90 and having a pan or being out $60 and having nothing, I might as well keep it. So I suppose that was a win for the seller - they successfully discouraged me from returning the item, which I'm sure would have cost them money. But it also discouraged me from buying anything on Amazon that isn't Prime, and it doesn't reflect well on Amazon that I had an experience completely contrary to their customer service values.

richthegeek 9y ago
Wow, I really am amazed how few consumer protections you seem to have! In the UK we're protected on two levels: firstly the "Distance Selling Regulation" means we have the right to cancel many contracts/purchases made not-in-person within 14 days of delivery. And secondly, if a good is faulty, not as described, or unfit for purpose then we have a right to a refund under those terms also. Probably because of these already strong rights, Amazon UK (and most retailers) go beyond that and simply offer a 30 day "no questions asked" return policy in most cases. I didn't realise until now how much I took it for granted!
- _Codemonkeyism 9y ago
  Similiar in Germany.

TorKlingberg 9y ago

It makes sense for Amazon to rein in third-party sellers. Amazon needs them to fill out the catalog and cover the long tail of products, but poor customer experiences damage Amazon's brand. I'm sure it upsets sellers, but this is part of selling through Amazon. If I have to email back and forth with the seller before I can return a defective item, why should I buy on Amazon instead of eBay?

holtalanm 9y ago

Observation: Don't care in the slightest about the third-party vendors' complaints. Amazon can control THEIR SITE how they want to control it. They own the site. Don't like their policies? Take your shop elsewhere. I already stopped trusting third-party vendors on Amazon a LONG time again.

xchefhatx 9y ago

Last year I made a little over $500k GROSS selling games on Amazon. This policy change is going to be a nightmare because fraud and bootlegging are rampant on their platform. Small businesses and large ones too are being forced to become sharecroppers for Amazon if they want to stay in business.

losteverything 9y ago
The article mentioned sites sellers complain on. Do u read post to any? Which ones

mnm1 9y ago

Amazon has no qualms about fucking over their customers and closing accounts for unspecified policy violations of non-existent policy. Now they're fucking over their vendors too. Maybe they actually have written policy this time? Anyway, everyone can now get fucked over by Amazon, vendor or customer. In the end everyone stands to lose while only Amazon stands to gain.

TallGuyShort 9y ago

Are that many people returning items for any reason other than the item not being as advertised in some way? If I don't get the item in the state that it was advertised in, I'm already getting a refund one way or another: either through the seller or by doing a charge back on my credit card if the seller drags their feet for more than a few weeks or is giving me BS. And I just flat out won't buy from a seller that won't shoulder the responsibility if the item is damaged or defective. I suppose some people might return an item because they changed their mind or misjudged what they needed, but I online shop a lot and I've literally never demanded a refund for something like that. Surely it can't be that bad...

holydude 9y ago

I am a big fan of internet platforms and everything but I just do not see a value in online shopping for physical goods. Sure it might be a good thing for shopping "disposable/every day use stuff" but why would I be buying something like a cooking pan (as someone mentioned) online ? If you know the cooking pan you want then yeah i agree amazong might be the most convenient thing but for stuff like that I just want to see them first and maybe I might buy other related stuff if I see it goes well together. And I am telling you all this as a person that hates shopping in person.

stordoff 9y ago
> why would I be buying something like a cooking pan (as someone mentioned) online I don't know if similar applies to the US, but at least in the UK you get stronger protections when buying online (because you can't inspect the item before hand). If I buy stuff in person, then find it is not suitable for what I need, I might be stuck with it depending on the store (assuming it is as described and not faulty). If I buy it online, I can just send it back (possibly paying postage costs, but most places offer free returns). For instance I've got a external hard drive on its way back to Amazon because, after testing, found that the performance isn't up to snuff. Had I purchased it in person, I may not have been able to return after use (because the packaging doesn't make any claims regarding performance, it'd be difficult to claim it is faulty/not as described).
Sleeep 9y ago
I can think of a few reasons: Bigger marketplace/choices Convenience - I don't have to wait until the store opens. I don't have to drive around to 10 different stores for 10 different products Not everyone has has easy access to the stores they need to go to Price Time - I can order a pan while waiting for a client to arrive or commuting on the train. Search and comparison tools (There's disadvantages too, of course.)

adventured 9y ago

This is very, very good for Walmart and competition between Walmart and Amazon online. Walmart has been making an aggressive effort to recruit sellers. They'll use this mistake by Amazon to their advantage. It'll also open up opportunities for other platforms such as eBay and perhaps something that doesn't yet exist. This is a mistake of perceived power by Amazon, I imagine they're going to make a lot more of them in the coming years.

eddigo 9y ago

This is what Walmart has been doing for quite a long time. They will essentially take any return and charge the vendor for it. My mom used to work as a bookkeeper for a garment company and the owners were thrilled when they landed Walmart. She said dealing with Walmart was a full-time job and they were ruthless in their tactics. They started to receive a large number of returns, and Walmart would deduct the cost (item cost, shipping, processing, etc) from their payments owed. I believe she also said they were Net-90. So you basically ship them 3 months worth of goods and you're left holding your dick for a while. Most of the items they received back weren't in saleable condition, so it was a loss. The company owners decided to let Walmart deal with those items instead of having them shipped back. It turns out Walmart was donating those items and getting a tax write-off. When my mom figured this out, she suggested that her company do this instead of letting Walmart do it. It helped offset some of the costs of doing business with them. The point is, when you deal with a distributor like Amazon or Walmart, it can bankrupt you if you aren't ready to deal with the volume and draconian policies. So these small businesses are right to be pissed and scared.

bigtunacan 9y ago

My experience on Amazon is that I try not to buy from sellers that aren't shipping directly through Amazon even if it's a lower price due to too many issues. I broke my rule recently yet again and purchased a "new" book on Amazon from a third seller that was about 1/2 the price of any Amazon shipper for the same item. When it arrived the book was not only not new, but was seriously damaged. Pages were all stuck together where the book must have been wet at some time, a bunch of the pages were torn. This thing was damaged so badly that I about 1/3 of the pages aren't even readable. I contacted the seller and they told me they would send a replacement "right away". That was a month ago and still no replacement, but they have a "no refunds" policy. =============Edit========= Here's a picture of this "new" book. The packaging was not damaged at all so this had to be an issue with the reseller rather than USPS. http://imgur.com/a/UjOSt http://imgur.com/a/UjOSt

Sleeep 9y ago
Just contact Amazon directly they will give you your money back right away. Same exact thing happened to me. When the seller balked I went right to Amazon. (Was this shipped from India by any chance? Mine was.)
- bigtunacan 9y ago
  Yeah, that's what I'll end up doing as well. This was shipped from Michigan.