4 ms·

This type of situation is actually the one that makes me believe in the long-term viability of cryptocurrencies. If i were living in venezuela right now, i woul

by bsaul 9y ago

This type of situation is actually the one that makes me believe in the long-term viability of cryptocurrencies. If i were living in venezuela right now, i would buy as many bitcoins as i could with my money, as soon as the president prevents regular currency trading through regular banks (which shouldn't take too long to happen, unless it's already the case).

nradov 9y ago
You can't buy anything useful with Bitcoins. Most Venezuelans trade their bolivars for US dollars or other stable foreign fiat currency on the black market to escape inflation.
wodencafe 9y ago
I don't think they accept bitcoins at the Venezuelan black market
thepumpkin1979 9y ago
There are decent size mining farms in Venezuela, the government has recently started to seize them. (in Spanish) https://criptonoticias.com/sucesos/desmantelan-centro-mineria-bitcoins-once-mil-equipos-venezuela/#axzz4oVbOVnAW https://criptonoticias.com/sucesos/desmantelan-centro-mineri...
raverbashing 9y ago
I love the bitcoin concept, but it's clear most of their fans don't understand much about how the real world works How do you propose they trade Bolivars for BTC? Do you think VNZL mines enough to have a local market? See the restrictions on foreign currency purchases in VNZL (and what is effectively two exchange rates) How do you propose the bitcoins are subsequently used? For buying basic items (like toilet paper, which gets smuggled from Brazil) Airlines can't repatriate their earnings from VNZL. Oh I know, they should buy bitcoin! /s But I assure you most of the well offs already have their earnings safely in a Miami bank account.
- tomjen3 9y ago
  You can buy with dollars on the black market, bitcoin is trivialy exchangeable for dollars. You have to mine them, but power is heavialy subsidized...
  - raverbashing 9y ago
    You can buy USD paper currency in Venezuela, how do you buy bitcoins with that? I'm not sure what's the story with credit cards there, but I assume the limits are strict.
    - tomjen3 9y ago
      >David, 27, a computer scientist living in Maracay, imports basic staples to help feed his family. He purchases Amazon gift cards through the bitcoin-friendly website eGifter, and then channels his orders through a Miami-based courier service. http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/04/venezuelans-turned-bitcoin-mining-170415124105593.html http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/04/venezuelan... That is one way to get the money out. As the article points out, others keep the money in bitcoin (which would have net them a handsome profit lately), but presumably you could also get an overseas bank account denominated in dollars.
kitcar 9y ago
What if the government shuts down internet access ? Then how do you buy bitcoins? Or sell the ones you have for a local currency? I don't see how Bitcoin is a great solution here when it depends on utilities managed by the government for its liquidity...
- bsaul 9y ago
  Move all your savings from your bank account into bitcoins ( as long as you have à internet access, that's correct). Then all you need is to store your wallet in a secured cloud storage. Once internet is completely gone of course all you're left with is buying diamonds or gold, put as much as you can in your luggage and just run.
  - Filligree 9y ago
    Not diamonds. Thanks to debeers, they're far more expensive to buy than their resale value would be. (The resale value is closer to fair, at that. Diamonds aren't actually rare.)
uiri 9y ago
I would be surprised if existing capital controls wouldn't prevent you from doing just that. Not every country is as liberal as the West when it comes to moving money around.
- bsaul 9y ago
  isn't bitcoin less monitored by states ? i don't see how they could prevent people from trading bitcoins unless they resort to total shutdown of the internet. But maybe i'm not informed enough.
  - ATsch 9y ago
    well, by fining you for tax evasion or putting you in jail. Sure, they can't physically stop you from trading bitcoin, but they sure can make sure nobody will be willing to trade it.
  - Symmetry 9y ago
    Bitcoint itself is less monitored but to buy bitcoin (as opposed to mining or earning it) you have to use the money in your bank account. And if there are currency controls you won't be able to take your Venezuelan bank account and transfer the money to a US bitcoin holder in return for bitcoins. And I doubt many people in Venezuela who have bitcoins will want to trade them for Venezuelan currency.
    - bsaul 9y ago
      That's an issue i hadn't anticipated indeed. Wouldn't it possible to buy real goods in venezuela using native currency ( like , say electronic equipment, or maybe something that doesn't loose as much value in secondhand market), and sell it online against bitcoins ?
      - Symmetry 9y ago
        I'm sure you could do it somehow but I wouldn't think it would be any easier to use Bitcoin than US dollars. The fundamental difficulty of working around the Venezuelan banking system is there in either case.
qubex 9y ago
How is that different from just about any other kind of foreign-domicile financial asset? Just buy US bonds, for Christ's sake...
- bsaul 9y ago
  i wouldn't know how to do that without going through my bank.
gregshap 9y ago
Good luck finding someone to take the other side of that trade
BearGoesChirp 9y ago
> i would buy as many bitcoins as i could with my money Which would mean that there would be someone selling as many of their bitcoins as possible for your money. If the situation is so dire that buying bitcoins is the obvious solution, who is going to sell them to you?
chiph 9y ago
Buying Bitcoin would only be useful in this case if you intended to flee the country, to get around the currency export limits. Buying them as a store of wealth would only be useful back when the Bolivar was worth something - as it stands, the black market exchange rate is several times the most generous official exchange rate (there are 3 official exchange rates for some reason). So buying BTC now would only make sense if the government currency had any further to fall.

by bsaul 9y ago

nradov 9y ago

You can't buy anything useful with Bitcoins. Most Venezuelans trade their bolivars for US dollars or other stable foreign fiat currency on the black market to escape inflation.

wodencafe 9y ago

I don't think they accept bitcoins at the Venezuelan black market

thepumpkin1979 9y ago

There are decent size mining farms in Venezuela, the government has recently started to seize them. (in Spanish) https://criptonoticias.com/sucesos/desmantelan-centro-mineria-bitcoins-once-mil-equipos-venezuela/#axzz4oVbOVnAW https://criptonoticias.com/sucesos/desmantelan-centro-mineri...

raverbashing 9y ago

I love the bitcoin concept, but it's clear most of their fans don't understand much about how the real world works How do you propose they trade Bolivars for BTC? Do you think VNZL mines enough to have a local market? See the restrictions on foreign currency purchases in VNZL (and what is effectively two exchange rates) How do you propose the bitcoins are subsequently used? For buying basic items (like toilet paper, which gets smuggled from Brazil) Airlines can't repatriate their earnings from VNZL. Oh I know, they should buy bitcoin! /s But I assure you most of the well offs already have their earnings safely in a Miami bank account.

tomjen3 9y ago
You can buy with dollars on the black market, bitcoin is trivialy exchangeable for dollars. You have to mine them, but power is heavialy subsidized...
- raverbashing 9y ago
  You can buy USD paper currency in Venezuela, how do you buy bitcoins with that? I'm not sure what's the story with credit cards there, but I assume the limits are strict.
  - tomjen3 9y ago
    >David, 27, a computer scientist living in Maracay, imports basic staples to help feed his family. He purchases Amazon gift cards through the bitcoin-friendly website eGifter, and then channels his orders through a Miami-based courier service. http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/04/venezuelans-turned-bitcoin-mining-170415124105593.html http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/04/venezuelan... That is one way to get the money out. As the article points out, others keep the money in bitcoin (which would have net them a handsome profit lately), but presumably you could also get an overseas bank account denominated in dollars.

kitcar 9y ago

What if the government shuts down internet access ? Then how do you buy bitcoins? Or sell the ones you have for a local currency? I don't see how Bitcoin is a great solution here when it depends on utilities managed by the government for its liquidity...

bsaul 9y ago
Move all your savings from your bank account into bitcoins ( as long as you have à internet access, that's correct). Then all you need is to store your wallet in a secured cloud storage. Once internet is completely gone of course all you're left with is buying diamonds or gold, put as much as you can in your luggage and just run.
- Filligree 9y ago
  Not diamonds. Thanks to debeers, they're far more expensive to buy than their resale value would be. (The resale value is closer to fair, at that. Diamonds aren't actually rare.)

uiri 9y ago

I would be surprised if existing capital controls wouldn't prevent you from doing just that. Not every country is as liberal as the West when it comes to moving money around.

bsaul 9y ago
isn't bitcoin less monitored by states ? i don't see how they could prevent people from trading bitcoins unless they resort to total shutdown of the internet. But maybe i'm not informed enough.
- ATsch 9y ago
  well, by fining you for tax evasion or putting you in jail. Sure, they can't physically stop you from trading bitcoin, but they sure can make sure nobody will be willing to trade it.
- Symmetry 9y ago
  Bitcoint itself is less monitored but to buy bitcoin (as opposed to mining or earning it) you have to use the money in your bank account. And if there are currency controls you won't be able to take your Venezuelan bank account and transfer the money to a US bitcoin holder in return for bitcoins. And I doubt many people in Venezuela who have bitcoins will want to trade them for Venezuelan currency.
  - bsaul 9y ago
    That's an issue i hadn't anticipated indeed. Wouldn't it possible to buy real goods in venezuela using native currency ( like , say electronic equipment, or maybe something that doesn't loose as much value in secondhand market), and sell it online against bitcoins ?
    - Symmetry 9y ago
      I'm sure you could do it somehow but I wouldn't think it would be any easier to use Bitcoin than US dollars. The fundamental difficulty of working around the Venezuelan banking system is there in either case.

qubex 9y ago

How is that different from just about any other kind of foreign-domicile financial asset? Just buy US bonds, for Christ's sake...

bsaul 9y ago
i wouldn't know how to do that without going through my bank.

gregshap 9y ago

Good luck finding someone to take the other side of that trade

BearGoesChirp 9y ago

> i would buy as many bitcoins as i could with my money Which would mean that there would be someone selling as many of their bitcoins as possible for your money. If the situation is so dire that buying bitcoins is the obvious solution, who is going to sell them to you?

chiph 9y ago

Buying Bitcoin would only be useful in this case if you intended to flee the country, to get around the currency export limits. Buying them as a store of wealth would only be useful back when the Bolivar was worth something - as it stands, the black market exchange rate is several times the most generous official exchange rate (there are 3 official exchange rates for some reason). So buying BTC now would only make sense if the government currency had any further to fall.