4 ms·

If we take two lines (one rail and one hyperloop) and compare the number of people that can be transported in an hour, then we can judge if multiple 12 person p

If we take two lines (one rail and one hyperloop) and compare the number of people that can be transported in an hour, then we can judge if multiple 12 person pods can transport more/less than trains over the same period. I suspect that pods might have a pretty good shot at winning.

maxerickson 9y ago
I would want to see such throughput numbers scaled to cost. (because if one or the other wins by spending 10x, well, duh)
- protomyth 9y ago
  Oh, absolutely, cost is a huge factor. I’m sure Californians are well aware of the cost of a rail project these days. I do hope part of the cos analysis is likely rent / housing costs paid by the commuters as a result of the build. I tend to think an extended range from higher speeds would decrease total housing costs but I too would want to see figures.
  - maxerickson 9y ago
    I bet trains win bigly for servicing bedroom communities. A stop is just a stop.
    - protomyth 9y ago
      Maybe, but a stop that can be twice as far away while taking the same commute time will probably yield lower housing costs since the amount of housing in an acceptable commute area is going to be much larger.
      - maxerickson 9y ago
        I was thinking about the amount of infrastructure needed to service the whole project corridor. Of course it isn't clear how the hyperloop would work in practice, but I doubt a station would be less footprint than a train stop. And running the services simultaneously is probably harder with small shuttles than with a train that just stops at each station. Likely faster, but a lot more complicated.
Someone 9y ago
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/hyperloop_alpha3.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/h...: "Sealed capsules carrying 28 passengers each that travel along the interior of the tube depart on average every 2 minutes from Los Angeles or San Francisco (up to every 30 seconds during peak usage hours)" So, that's 28/pod, not 12. At 30 second intervals, that would be 56 passengers/minute or 3360/hour. For trains, we have (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_capacity#Route_capacities_in_different_types_of_railways https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_capacity#Route_capacitie...): "Tram and light rail systems have in theory very high route capacities, but in practice route capacities of 12 trains per hour is a practical upper limit. For High Speed Rail a route capacity of up to 18 trains per hour may be possible. The Punggol metro line in Singapore uses a moving block system to achieve a headway of 90 seconds, so the route capacity is 40 trains per hour." So, let's take 12 trains an hour. Then, each one would have to carry 280 passengers to be on par with the maximum mentioned by Musk. That's ballpark what https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R160_(New_York_City_Subway_car) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R160_(New_York_City_Subway_car... delivers, but about a third of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_2009_Stock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_2009_Stock. So, I think an optimistic view would say you need two hyperloop tubes to get capacity of a single subway rail line (optimistic because it rounds down train capacity, and accepts Musk's claim of 120 pods/hour) High-speed train may be different, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_TGV_Sud-Est https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_TGV_Sud-Est has a capacity of 350, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acela_Express#First-generation_train_design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acela_Express#First-generation... about 300, both ballpark the top of Musk's claim. On the other hand, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_374 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_374, used on Eurostar, has 900 seats. So, I guess TGV and Acela use multiple carriages in a single train. That, again, would mean you need two hyperloop tubes for one train.
- getemback 9y ago
  The difference between conjecture and reality. Musk supposes he can put through 3360 pax/hour. Today we already have rail lines that routinely discharge 100000 pax/hour. We don't need your napkin math because we already know what a rail line can do.

maxerickson 9y ago

I would want to see such throughput numbers scaled to cost. (because if one or the other wins by spending 10x, well, duh)

protomyth 9y ago
Oh, absolutely, cost is a huge factor. I’m sure Californians are well aware of the cost of a rail project these days. I do hope part of the cos analysis is likely rent / housing costs paid by the commuters as a result of the build. I tend to think an extended range from higher speeds would decrease total housing costs but I too would want to see figures.
- maxerickson 9y ago
  I bet trains win bigly for servicing bedroom communities. A stop is just a stop.
  - protomyth 9y ago
    Maybe, but a stop that can be twice as far away while taking the same commute time will probably yield lower housing costs since the amount of housing in an acceptable commute area is going to be much larger.
    - maxerickson 9y ago
      I was thinking about the amount of infrastructure needed to service the whole project corridor. Of course it isn't clear how the hyperloop would work in practice, but I doubt a station would be less footprint than a train stop. And running the services simultaneously is probably harder with small shuttles than with a train that just stops at each station. Likely faster, but a lot more complicated.

Someone 9y ago

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/hyperloop_alpha3.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/h...: "Sealed capsules carrying 28 passengers each that travel along the interior of the tube depart on average every 2 minutes from Los Angeles or San Francisco (up to every 30 seconds during peak usage hours)" So, that's 28/pod, not 12. At 30 second intervals, that would be 56 passengers/minute or 3360/hour. For trains, we have (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_capacity#Route_capacities_in_different_types_of_railways https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_capacity#Route_capacitie...): "Tram and light rail systems have in theory very high route capacities, but in practice route capacities of 12 trains per hour is a practical upper limit. For High Speed Rail a route capacity of up to 18 trains per hour may be possible. The Punggol metro line in Singapore uses a moving block system to achieve a headway of 90 seconds, so the route capacity is 40 trains per hour." So, let's take 12 trains an hour. Then, each one would have to carry 280 passengers to be on par with the maximum mentioned by Musk. That's ballpark what https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R160_(New_York_City_Subway_car) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R160_(New_York_City_Subway_car... delivers, but about a third of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_2009_Stock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_2009_Stock. So, I think an optimistic view would say you need two hyperloop tubes to get capacity of a single subway rail line (optimistic because it rounds down train capacity, and accepts Musk's claim of 120 pods/hour) High-speed train may be different, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_TGV_Sud-Est https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_TGV_Sud-Est has a capacity of 350, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acela_Express#First-generation_train_design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acela_Express#First-generation... about 300, both ballpark the top of Musk's claim. On the other hand, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_374 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_374, used on Eurostar, has 900 seats. So, I guess TGV and Acela use multiple carriages in a single train. That, again, would mean you need two hyperloop tubes for one train.

getemback 9y ago
The difference between conjecture and reality. Musk supposes he can put through 3360 pax/hour. Today we already have rail lines that routinely discharge 100000 pax/hour. We don't need your napkin math because we already know what a rail line can do.