8 ms·

I think push notifications and offline support are the real killer features that Apple currently doesn't support. It's kind of funny as a web developer because

by pluma 9y ago

I think push notifications and offline support are the real killer features that Apple currently doesn't support. It's kind of funny as a web developer because for the longest time Apple seemed to be the one pushing the mobile web forward but now that web apps are reaching for feature parity with native, Apple's initial momentum seems to be ancient history. It seems Apple still thinks of the mobile web as a content delivery platform rather than an application platform. Their proprietary additions (mostly CSS) largely focused on making things prettier, their rationale for opting out of standard features (e.g. autoplay) often only work under the assumption that the only use for those features would be in the context of traditional content pages. You want an app? Develop for our walled garden we tightly control to offer our users the best possible experience. If you want it on the web, stick to creating content our users can consume in Mobile Safari, our app for reading websites.

jpttsn 9y ago
If you're referring to the pre-App Store iPhone OS, have you considered the possibility that they were just late with the SDK?
- 2muchcoffeeman 9y ago
  Apparently according to the Jobs biography, Steve Really did oppose native apps https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21/jobs-original-vision-for-the-iphone-no-third-party-native-apps/ https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21/jobs-original-vision-for-the-...
  - jpttsn 9y ago
    Well, Steve said "nobody wants video on an iPod" when it wasn't ready yet. I'm not convinced that link shows me his true emotions.
    - euyyn 9y ago
      You're getting downvoted, but public statements by a businessman when a lot of money is on the line are always to be taken with a grain of salt.
rimliu 9y ago
> web apps are reaching for feature parity with native Not even remotely close.
- kartan 9y ago
  This is Papa Pear: https://king.com/game/papapear https://king.com/game/papapear The HTML5 version is compiled from the same source that the App that goes to the Apple App Store (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/papa-pear-saga/id572542612?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/papa-pear-saga/id572542612?m...). What's so different? It is literally the same code base (minus some platform specific code).
  - rimliu 9y ago
    I am talking about possibilities provided by iOS SDK and what is provided by web stack. It is amazing that React Native does not even have something UINavigationControll-ish. UIKit alone gives stuff which is lightyears ahead of the web. Even some more basic stuff: how easy it is to add accessibility to PWAs? Localization?
    - royal_ts 9y ago
      Most Frontend-Frameworks do have Localization-features so that's kind of easy to do. But other features like Bluetooth are nowhere to be seen (Blink Browser can do this - but it's far far away from a standard)
      - vetinari 9y ago
        Web Bluetooth: https://webbluetoothcg.github.io/web-bluetooth/ https://webbluetoothcg.github.io/web-bluetooth/ (not yet standard, but supported by Chrome, for example). A11y is also being taken seriously.
IBM 9y ago
Is there a reason for users to care about this at all? Because it seems to me that this just solves problems for developers while making the user experience worse or not as good as it could be. The same goes for Electron-based apps.
- andreashansen 9y ago
  Watch the State of the Web talk from Google IO 2017. Certain native apps (Twitter, OLA) are 70-100MB in size when downloaded from the app stores. Their progressive web app version are 0.2-0.6MB. Extremely important in countries with very limited and/or expensive mobile data.
  - jvzr 9y ago
    I'd say that's another issue. Duplicate frameworks in Facebook.app, monolithic tracking frameworks, etc. So much useless stuff prying on the user's privacy. I remember Twitter.app had code to get the currently installed apps, to "better target ads." It's user hostile and we are paying with the multi gigabytes of data.
    - euyyn 9y ago
      The argument can't go only one way, though. If a web app doesn't get the UI in tune with the OS' look and feel, "the developer should be bothered to create a native app". But if a native app is a massive bloat, "that's another issue".
  - akmarinov 9y ago
    https://sensortower.com/blog/ios-app-size-growth https://sensortower.com/blog/ios-app-size-growth According to this, Facebook was 32 MBs 4 years ago. It's similar with Twitter. It's their fault that they keep adding stuff to track you. And Facebook contains just about every library that has ever existed now.
    - pavlakoos 9y ago
      But now Facebook mobile app is a different tech. It's ReactNative, not Obj-C, right?
kartan 9y ago
> It seems Apple still thinks of the mobile web as a content delivery platform rather than an application platform. Apple wants in-app purchases. Why deliver full flexed apps in the web were people pays using PayPal or VISA if you can force people to use your store? This is the reason Apple killed Flash and is the reason why they may kill any other web technology.
- FussyZeus 9y ago
  While I'm sure there was also a financial motive, the primary was still that flash did (and does) suck. It sucks batteries, it sucks at security and it sucks at scaling for mobiles.
- reaktivo 9y ago
  Not to defend Apple on this, but no, Flash was already dead by the time Apple implemented in-app purchases.
- snowwrestler 9y ago
  When Apple decided not to put Flash on the iPhone, they had also decided that there would be no 3rd party native apps on the iPhone. They later reversed that decision, of course. But the Flash decision was right at the beginning and had nothing to do with in-app purchases. Note that Android never got Flash to work well on phones either. It just killed performance and battery life.
- woofyman 9y ago
  Native IOS apps can absolutely accept credit card payment. In app purchases are only required for content that is consumed in app.
- detaro 9y ago
  Conversely, Apple is in a perfect position to spearhead a web micropayment API standard, and has total control over the browser and thus the way users' use it.
  - ClassyJacket 9y ago
FussyZeus 9y ago
I've never met a single end user who wants desktop notifications for web "apps," including myself. In fact I wish I could turn it off globally and more easily. I'm sure there are a number of legitimate uses but as of now, every craptastic "news" website I visit now wants to pester the hell out of me with notifications when they post new clickbait.
- mantas 9y ago
  Ironically, they frequently don't give RSS feed. Which I'd be happy to subscribe to.
- jimktrains2 9y ago
  Im comfortable with the current system where websites request permission for notifications, but they are as useful as phone notifications. Message in a webchat, new email, new private notification on Twitter, &c. It should always be opt in, but it is a useful thing for many use cases.
  - FussyZeus 9y ago
    I'm comfortable with it, just wish the browsers would give me the option to just say no, forever, to all websites.
    - masklinn 9y ago
      I think safari (desktop) does. It has a checkbox labelled "Allow websites to ask for permission to send notifications" in the Notifications settings.
  - NoGravitas 9y ago
    Can't reply to FussyZeus, but in Firefox, you can permanently disable notifications for all websites (though it is not exposed in the UI). Go to about:config, search for dom.webnotifications.enabled, set it to false.
    - 9y ago
tallanvor 9y ago
A lot of people are already sick and tired of websites asking to be able to send push notifications in the browser. Annoying people isn't a "killer feature", it's an aggravation. If a normal website can't do the job, and the developer isn't willing to develop a native app, then maybe the product simply isn't necessary.
- dhimes 9y ago
  I've never, ever allowed a website to send me push notifications. I honestly didn't even know it was a "thing" until I started getting requests. Also, location-sharing requests are baffling to me on my desktop for anything other than something like a weather site (I still disallow- I have my favorites set).
- y_u_no_rust 9y ago
  I'm also sick and tired of bloated apps with loading screens
- jdauriemma 9y ago
  >If a normal website can't do the job, and the developer isn't willing to develop a native app, then maybe the product simply isn't necessary. That seems like circular logic. IMO, very few products are "necessary," and sure, right now developers have pretty much no choice but to support native walled gardens if they want to support the list of features PWA offers. But what if users had a real choice? What if the web browser could offer an immersive user experience on par with native mobile apps? What if browser vendors actually put in effort to optimize for user preferences regarding PWA call-to-actions? What if PWAs were as widely promoted as native app stores?
masklinn 9y ago
> I think push notifications and offline support are the real killer features that Apple currently doesn't support. Technically Apple does support offline via the older manifests mechanism (and "Add to Home Screen" which invokes it remains prominent in the safari share sheet) though it's a lousy (and pretty buggy) experience. Interestingly they don't support any sort of web notifications on iOS despite having added local notifications ( https://www.w3.org/TR/notifications/ https://www.w3.org/TR/notifications/) in macOS 10.8 and remote Safari Push Notifications (built on APNS) in macOS 10.9.
dkonofalski 9y ago
Push notifications are the new pop-up window. When every app has and uses push notifications, it makes any app having them almost pointless unless you deny half of the push notification requests you get.

by pluma 9y ago

jpttsn 9y ago

If you're referring to the pre-App Store iPhone OS, have you considered the possibility that they were just late with the SDK?

2muchcoffeeman 9y ago
Apparently according to the Jobs biography, Steve Really did oppose native apps https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21/jobs-original-vision-for-the-iphone-no-third-party-native-apps/ https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21/jobs-original-vision-for-the-...
- jpttsn 9y ago
  Well, Steve said "nobody wants video on an iPod" when it wasn't ready yet. I'm not convinced that link shows me his true emotions.
  - euyyn 9y ago
    You're getting downvoted, but public statements by a businessman when a lot of money is on the line are always to be taken with a grain of salt.

rimliu 9y ago

> web apps are reaching for feature parity with native Not even remotely close.

kartan 9y ago
This is Papa Pear: https://king.com/game/papapear https://king.com/game/papapear The HTML5 version is compiled from the same source that the App that goes to the Apple App Store (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/papa-pear-saga/id572542612?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/papa-pear-saga/id572542612?m...). What's so different? It is literally the same code base (minus some platform specific code).
- rimliu 9y ago
  I am talking about possibilities provided by iOS SDK and what is provided by web stack. It is amazing that React Native does not even have something UINavigationControll-ish. UIKit alone gives stuff which is lightyears ahead of the web. Even some more basic stuff: how easy it is to add accessibility to PWAs? Localization?
  - royal_ts 9y ago
    Most Frontend-Frameworks do have Localization-features so that's kind of easy to do. But other features like Bluetooth are nowhere to be seen (Blink Browser can do this - but it's far far away from a standard)
    - vetinari 9y ago
      Web Bluetooth: https://webbluetoothcg.github.io/web-bluetooth/ https://webbluetoothcg.github.io/web-bluetooth/ (not yet standard, but supported by Chrome, for example). A11y is also being taken seriously.

IBM 9y ago

Is there a reason for users to care about this at all? Because it seems to me that this just solves problems for developers while making the user experience worse or not as good as it could be. The same goes for Electron-based apps.

andreashansen 9y ago
Watch the State of the Web talk from Google IO 2017. Certain native apps (Twitter, OLA) are 70-100MB in size when downloaded from the app stores. Their progressive web app version are 0.2-0.6MB. Extremely important in countries with very limited and/or expensive mobile data.
- jvzr 9y ago
  I'd say that's another issue. Duplicate frameworks in Facebook.app, monolithic tracking frameworks, etc. So much useless stuff prying on the user's privacy. I remember Twitter.app had code to get the currently installed apps, to "better target ads." It's user hostile and we are paying with the multi gigabytes of data.
  - euyyn 9y ago
    The argument can't go only one way, though. If a web app doesn't get the UI in tune with the OS' look and feel, "the developer should be bothered to create a native app". But if a native app is a massive bloat, "that's another issue".
- akmarinov 9y ago
  https://sensortower.com/blog/ios-app-size-growth https://sensortower.com/blog/ios-app-size-growth According to this, Facebook was 32 MBs 4 years ago. It's similar with Twitter. It's their fault that they keep adding stuff to track you. And Facebook contains just about every library that has ever existed now.
  - pavlakoos 9y ago
    But now Facebook mobile app is a different tech. It's ReactNative, not Obj-C, right?

kartan 9y ago

> It seems Apple still thinks of the mobile web as a content delivery platform rather than an application platform. Apple wants in-app purchases. Why deliver full flexed apps in the web were people pays using PayPal or VISA if you can force people to use your store? This is the reason Apple killed Flash and is the reason why they may kill any other web technology.

FussyZeus 9y ago
While I'm sure there was also a financial motive, the primary was still that flash did (and does) suck. It sucks batteries, it sucks at security and it sucks at scaling for mobiles.
reaktivo 9y ago
Not to defend Apple on this, but no, Flash was already dead by the time Apple implemented in-app purchases.
snowwrestler 9y ago
When Apple decided not to put Flash on the iPhone, they had also decided that there would be no 3rd party native apps on the iPhone. They later reversed that decision, of course. But the Flash decision was right at the beginning and had nothing to do with in-app purchases. Note that Android never got Flash to work well on phones either. It just killed performance and battery life.
woofyman 9y ago
Native IOS apps can absolutely accept credit card payment. In app purchases are only required for content that is consumed in app.
detaro 9y ago
Conversely, Apple is in a perfect position to spearhead a web micropayment API standard, and has total control over the browser and thus the way users' use it.
- ClassyJacket 9y ago

FussyZeus 9y ago

I've never met a single end user who wants desktop notifications for web "apps," including myself. In fact I wish I could turn it off globally and more easily. I'm sure there are a number of legitimate uses but as of now, every craptastic "news" website I visit now wants to pester the hell out of me with notifications when they post new clickbait.

mantas 9y ago
Ironically, they frequently don't give RSS feed. Which I'd be happy to subscribe to.
jimktrains2 9y ago
Im comfortable with the current system where websites request permission for notifications, but they are as useful as phone notifications. Message in a webchat, new email, new private notification on Twitter, &c. It should always be opt in, but it is a useful thing for many use cases.
- FussyZeus 9y ago
  I'm comfortable with it, just wish the browsers would give me the option to just say no, forever, to all websites.
  - masklinn 9y ago
    I think safari (desktop) does. It has a checkbox labelled "Allow websites to ask for permission to send notifications" in the Notifications settings.
- NoGravitas 9y ago
  Can't reply to FussyZeus, but in Firefox, you can permanently disable notifications for all websites (though it is not exposed in the UI). Go to about:config, search for dom.webnotifications.enabled, set it to false.
  - 9y ago

tallanvor 9y ago

A lot of people are already sick and tired of websites asking to be able to send push notifications in the browser. Annoying people isn't a "killer feature", it's an aggravation. If a normal website can't do the job, and the developer isn't willing to develop a native app, then maybe the product simply isn't necessary.

dhimes 9y ago
I've never, ever allowed a website to send me push notifications. I honestly didn't even know it was a "thing" until I started getting requests. Also, location-sharing requests are baffling to me on my desktop for anything other than something like a weather site (I still disallow- I have my favorites set).
y_u_no_rust 9y ago
I'm also sick and tired of bloated apps with loading screens
jdauriemma 9y ago
>If a normal website can't do the job, and the developer isn't willing to develop a native app, then maybe the product simply isn't necessary. That seems like circular logic. IMO, very few products are "necessary," and sure, right now developers have pretty much no choice but to support native walled gardens if they want to support the list of features PWA offers. But what if users had a real choice? What if the web browser could offer an immersive user experience on par with native mobile apps? What if browser vendors actually put in effort to optimize for user preferences regarding PWA call-to-actions? What if PWAs were as widely promoted as native app stores?

masklinn 9y ago

> I think push notifications and offline support are the real killer features that Apple currently doesn't support. Technically Apple does support offline via the older manifests mechanism (and "Add to Home Screen" which invokes it remains prominent in the safari share sheet) though it's a lousy (and pretty buggy) experience. Interestingly they don't support any sort of web notifications on iOS despite having added local notifications ( https://www.w3.org/TR/notifications/ https://www.w3.org/TR/notifications/) in macOS 10.8 and remote Safari Push Notifications (built on APNS) in macOS 10.9.

dkonofalski 9y ago

Push notifications are the new pop-up window. When every app has and uses push notifications, it makes any app having them almost pointless unless you deny half of the push notification requests you get.