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I never once said that liberal coastal lifestyles are the best way to live. What I was getting at is that the more educated people feel stifled in communities

by NTDF9 9y ago

I never once said that liberal coastal lifestyles are the best way to live. What I was getting at is that the more educated people feel stifled in communities that disregard rational thought process. People out there are good but they have very little proclivity to critical thinking and desire for educated neighbors. An example is that they'd rather segregate the poor out than actually work towards building an educated society and uplift the unfortunate.

Pica_soO 9y ago
And in the citys, that happens? The schizophrenic bum below your appartment is uplifted by you? Or rather kept alive by some church/community driven support group? I grew up in a evangelical high religious environment, with some family members clearly having mental issues, that factored into religion (what you would consider extremism). Some of them viewed the city lifestyle and tech in particular as "parasites" leaching to religious communitys and countrys, as there society was not able to substain itself. I dislike that viewpoint, but disliking never made that piece of ugly truth go away. On the other side, these communities live longer and healthier by now- due to non-parasitic tech and as other countrys show, religious conservatism on its own, spirals into a eternal (every second gen) civil war, once all lands/ressources are used up. Could we agree upon, that both sides need one another- even though everyone in this thread has lovely family memorys.
- TulliusCicero 9y ago
  > Some of them viewed the city lifestyle and tech in particular as "parasites" leaching to religious communitys and countrys, as there society was not able to substain itself. I dislike that viewpoint, but disliking never made that piece of ugly truth go away. Ugly truth? The major urban metros are the ones subsidizing the rural areas, just look at any state's map of each county's tax revenue generation vs spending. It's the rural, country areas that are mooching, the people living there just don't want to admit that the free market that they worship has abandoned them, because it turns out that effective modern commerce requires population density.
  - marchenko 9y ago
    If I'm reading Pica correctly, it seems like you two are talking about different things: Pica is referring to the scaffolding of values (social norms including high trust) and practice (proving services to community members) that 'rural/low income' communities value, and which invisibly support the modern economy on the local scale. Tullius seems to be referring to the economic and technological goods provided by the modern marketplace, which do indeed subsidize rural areas. I don't think the rural zones actually worship the free market, and that is part of the problem they have communicating their values to the economically successful, who tend to prefer arguments couched in terms of economic benefits rather than the vague social goods (low social friction, multiple status hierarchies, respect for religion, etc.) desired by the rural/traditional communities.
    - aaron-lebo 9y ago
      Your last paragraph is interesting. Never quite heard it described that way, but it makes a lot of sense. You drawing from any sources in particular for that?
      - marchenko 9y ago
        This is the impression I have reading reportage from writers like Chris Arnade, where it seems like the poor and the majority of those writing about them are speaking at cross-purposes (not Arnade, but others in the genre of 'explaining the left-behinds'). I have heard that a similar argument is made in the book Seeing Like a State, which I have put on my reading list.
    - TulliusCicero 9y ago
      > If I'm reading Pica correctly, it seems like you two are talking about different things: Pica is referring to the scaffolding of values (social norms including high trust) and practice (proving services to community members) that 'rural/low income' communities value, and which invisibly support the modern economy on the local scale. Not sure I follow. How do rural cultural values and practices "invisibly support the modern economy"? > I don't think the rural zones actually worship the free market Obviously 'worship' is a bit of hyperbole, but they do tend to vote for representatives that constantly talk up the free market and constantly put down the government.
- kasey_junk 9y ago
  Your argument hinges on an axis that doesn't exist. There are as many (per capita, there are more on a real basis) religious communities in cities as in rural locations. They form the basis of their congregants lives to a higher degree even.
cmahler7 9y ago
The modern liberal ideology is based on completely ignoring facts and instead focusing on feels, there's nothing rational about it. I'd also argue the fact that liberals are "educated". The number of STEM graduates per year has basically stayed flat, liberal arts degrees account for almost all the new graduate gains over the last 30 years. The result is the massive elitism seen in liberals despite not really knowing anything of value. Hence the enlightened graduates with 50k+ in debt working minimum wage jobs. But at least they can stroke their ego about being superior to the plumber or electrician making 6 figures with no debt. >An example is that they'd rather segregate the poor out than actually work towards building an educated society and uplift the unfortunate SF spent 20 million last year on arresting homeless people and getting them out of the city. It's basically illegal to be homeless in SF, yet they are seen as the paragon of liberal values. Do as I say, not as I do.
- kasey_junk 9y ago
  SF is largely not seen as a paragon of liberal values from my perspective. Quite the opposite, it's seen as what happens when you let rich people run amok.

by NTDF9 9y ago

Pica_soO 9y ago

And in the citys, that happens? The schizophrenic bum below your appartment is uplifted by you? Or rather kept alive by some church/community driven support group? I grew up in a evangelical high religious environment, with some family members clearly having mental issues, that factored into religion (what you would consider extremism). Some of them viewed the city lifestyle and tech in particular as "parasites" leaching to religious communitys and countrys, as there society was not able to substain itself. I dislike that viewpoint, but disliking never made that piece of ugly truth go away. On the other side, these communities live longer and healthier by now- due to non-parasitic tech and as other countrys show, religious conservatism on its own, spirals into a eternal (every second gen) civil war, once all lands/ressources are used up. Could we agree upon, that both sides need one another- even though everyone in this thread has lovely family memorys.

TulliusCicero 9y ago
> Some of them viewed the city lifestyle and tech in particular as "parasites" leaching to religious communitys and countrys, as there society was not able to substain itself. I dislike that viewpoint, but disliking never made that piece of ugly truth go away. Ugly truth? The major urban metros are the ones subsidizing the rural areas, just look at any state's map of each county's tax revenue generation vs spending. It's the rural, country areas that are mooching, the people living there just don't want to admit that the free market that they worship has abandoned them, because it turns out that effective modern commerce requires population density.
- marchenko 9y ago
  If I'm reading Pica correctly, it seems like you two are talking about different things: Pica is referring to the scaffolding of values (social norms including high trust) and practice (proving services to community members) that 'rural/low income' communities value, and which invisibly support the modern economy on the local scale. Tullius seems to be referring to the economic and technological goods provided by the modern marketplace, which do indeed subsidize rural areas. I don't think the rural zones actually worship the free market, and that is part of the problem they have communicating their values to the economically successful, who tend to prefer arguments couched in terms of economic benefits rather than the vague social goods (low social friction, multiple status hierarchies, respect for religion, etc.) desired by the rural/traditional communities.
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    Your last paragraph is interesting. Never quite heard it described that way, but it makes a lot of sense. You drawing from any sources in particular for that?
    - marchenko 9y ago
      This is the impression I have reading reportage from writers like Chris Arnade, where it seems like the poor and the majority of those writing about them are speaking at cross-purposes (not Arnade, but others in the genre of 'explaining the left-behinds'). I have heard that a similar argument is made in the book Seeing Like a State, which I have put on my reading list.
  - TulliusCicero 9y ago
    > If I'm reading Pica correctly, it seems like you two are talking about different things: Pica is referring to the scaffolding of values (social norms including high trust) and practice (proving services to community members) that 'rural/low income' communities value, and which invisibly support the modern economy on the local scale. Not sure I follow. How do rural cultural values and practices "invisibly support the modern economy"? > I don't think the rural zones actually worship the free market Obviously 'worship' is a bit of hyperbole, but they do tend to vote for representatives that constantly talk up the free market and constantly put down the government.
kasey_junk 9y ago
Your argument hinges on an axis that doesn't exist. There are as many (per capita, there are more on a real basis) religious communities in cities as in rural locations. They form the basis of their congregants lives to a higher degree even.

cmahler7 9y ago

The modern liberal ideology is based on completely ignoring facts and instead focusing on feels, there's nothing rational about it. I'd also argue the fact that liberals are "educated". The number of STEM graduates per year has basically stayed flat, liberal arts degrees account for almost all the new graduate gains over the last 30 years. The result is the massive elitism seen in liberals despite not really knowing anything of value. Hence the enlightened graduates with 50k+ in debt working minimum wage jobs. But at least they can stroke their ego about being superior to the plumber or electrician making 6 figures with no debt. >An example is that they'd rather segregate the poor out than actually work towards building an educated society and uplift the unfortunate SF spent 20 million last year on arresting homeless people and getting them out of the city. It's basically illegal to be homeless in SF, yet they are seen as the paragon of liberal values. Do as I say, not as I do.

kasey_junk 9y ago
SF is largely not seen as a paragon of liberal values from my perspective. Quite the opposite, it's seen as what happens when you let rich people run amok.