5 ms·

As a person who's been about in those areas, I think part of the reason is the mass-delusion that education and sciences is somehow a bad thing. Far too many c

by NTDF9 9y ago

As a person who's been about in those areas, I think part of the reason is the mass-delusion that education and sciences is somehow a bad thing. Far too many common folks out in the country think that education is not worth it, science is not worth learning, healthcare and public transportation is second-class. It shows in the way they live, the way they socialize, the way they vote. They'd rather spend money on Church than healthcare. They'd rather worry about their individual taxes than on improving schools and teaching critical thinking and sciences. The really ambitious/educated kids realize that it is a (apologies) shit-hole and get out asap.

Pica_soO 9y ago
Not a chance, that maybe, if you view family and community as a value and realize that all those people going to vanish in the hedonistic accid bath we labeled society will not contribute to either, its your right to withold support to this? Especially if those who turn theire back return to dissolve the livelihood of people without creating a worth-wile replacement? The fact that these communities basically with education create forces that harass and destroy them, makes the delay in backlash actually quite astounding.
- NTDF9 9y ago
  I never once said that liberal coastal lifestyles are the best way to live. What I was getting at is that the more educated people feel stifled in communities that disregard rational thought process. People out there are good but they have very little proclivity to critical thinking and desire for educated neighbors. An example is that they'd rather segregate the poor out than actually work towards building an educated society and uplift the unfortunate.
  - Pica_soO 9y ago
    And in the citys, that happens? The schizophrenic bum below your appartment is uplifted by you? Or rather kept alive by some church/community driven support group? I grew up in a evangelical high religious environment, with some family members clearly having mental issues, that factored into religion (what you would consider extremism). Some of them viewed the city lifestyle and tech in particular as "parasites" leaching to religious communitys and countrys, as there society was not able to substain itself. I dislike that viewpoint, but disliking never made that piece of ugly truth go away. On the other side, these communities live longer and healthier by now- due to non-parasitic tech and as other countrys show, religious conservatism on its own, spirals into a eternal (every second gen) civil war, once all lands/ressources are used up. Could we agree upon, that both sides need one another- even though everyone in this thread has lovely family memorys.
    - TulliusCicero 9y ago
      > Some of them viewed the city lifestyle and tech in particular as "parasites" leaching to religious communitys and countrys, as there society was not able to substain itself. I dislike that viewpoint, but disliking never made that piece of ugly truth go away. Ugly truth? The major urban metros are the ones subsidizing the rural areas, just look at any state's map of each county's tax revenue generation vs spending. It's the rural, country areas that are mooching, the people living there just don't want to admit that the free market that they worship has abandoned them, because it turns out that effective modern commerce requires population density.
      - marchenko 9y ago
        If I'm reading Pica correctly, it seems like you two are talking about different things: Pica is referring to the scaffolding of values (social norms including high trust) and practice (proving services to community members) that 'rural/low income' communities value, and which invisibly support the modern economy on the local scale. Tullius seems to be referring to the economic and technological goods provided by the modern marketplace, which do indeed subsidize rural areas. I don't think the rural zones actually worship the free market, and that is part of the problem they have communicating their values to the economically successful, who tend to prefer arguments couched in terms of economic benefits rather than the vague social goods (low social friction, multiple status hierarchies, respect for religion, etc.) desired by the rural/traditional communities.
        aaron-lebo 9y ago
        Your last paragraph is interesting. Never quite heard it described that way, but it makes a lot of sense. You drawing from any sources in particular for that?
        marchenko 9y ago
        This is the impression I have reading reportage from writers like Chris Arnade, where it seems like the poor and the majority of those writing about them are speaking at cross-purposes (not Arnade, but others in the genre of 'explaining the left-behinds'). I have heard that a similar argument is made in the book Seeing Like a State, which I have put on my reading list.
  - cmahler7 9y ago
    The modern liberal ideology is based on completely ignoring facts and instead focusing on feels, there's nothing rational about it. I'd also argue the fact that liberals are "educated". The number of STEM graduates per year has basically stayed flat, liberal arts degrees account for almost all the new graduate gains over the last 30 years. The result is the massive elitism seen in liberals despite not really knowing anything of value. Hence the enlightened graduates with 50k+ in debt working minimum wage jobs. But at least they can stroke their ego about being superior to the plumber or electrician making 6 figures with no debt. >An example is that they'd rather segregate the poor out than actually work towards building an educated society and uplift the unfortunate SF spent 20 million last year on arresting homeless people and getting them out of the city. It's basically illegal to be homeless in SF, yet they are seen as the paragon of liberal values. Do as I say, not as I do.
    - kasey_junk 9y ago
      SF is largely not seen as a paragon of liberal values from my perspective. Quite the opposite, it's seen as what happens when you let rich people run amok.
- mnm1 9y ago
  WTF does this mean?
  - ayrx 9y ago
    It very clearly shows the need for education.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Seems understandable to me: residents of these less educated communities see their kids get an education and that leading them to leave their home towns into the wider society (with its destructive hedonistic culture), and in turn to reject the values of their parents and even advocate for policies that destroy these communities. Hence these older generations resist getting their kids "too much" education. It's an interesting point, though it reminds me of this satirical ad on GTA SA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XydMKkHBL4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XydMKkHBL4
    - mnm1 9y ago
      Understandable? It's barely English. And wow, that's absolutely fucking disgusting on the part of the parents if what you say is true (I don't doubt it). Maybe the parents' values should be destroyed then. That is some fucked up shit. Hey, let's hold our kids back from advancing in life because our own stupid, small-minded beliefs dictate so. After all, it takes some real stupidity to judge all wider society cultures (yes, plural) as hedonistic and destructive.
      - icebraining 9y ago
        It's just my interpretation of Pica_soO's post, I've never even been to the US.
        mnm1 9y ago
        Oh, I think your interpretation is rather accurate.
      - 9y ago
- donquichotte 9y ago
  This comment reads like the output of a Markov chain text generator.
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    Not a very kind way to dismiss the point of someone who might not be a native speaker, yeah?: That is to say it's understandable.
    - saiya-jin 9y ago
      if I am a non-native speaker unsure of my level, I will do my best to use simple phrases to actually get the message across the board... exactly the opposite of this post. yeah, it reads as some google translator output on some sophisticated text
FussyZeus 9y ago
Speaking as another former rust-belter: none of this is untrue, but you're speaking as though this anti-authoritarian and anti-education attitude materialized from the ether, and it didn't. For decades the coastal cities have projected at every single turn in nearly every form of media (other than radio really, which is why it has such a strong presence in the rural areas) about how much better the coasts are, how much better the people are, and taken every single opportunity to thumb their nose at the social and community values that rural areas treasure. Combine that with the last 9 years or so, including the economic collapse and ensuing recovery that left any population center under several million basically to freeze and die, and the attitude of rural America is pretty easy to explain. You never gave a shit about what we had to say; why should we give a shit what you have to say now? That's not to say of course that I agree with this attitude. I'm just saying it gets really old to watch all my liberal friends scratching their heads like "Why don't they like us?" after you spent the last several decades pissing them off at every turn, like a college kid who just got their own apartment and doesn't have to live by Mom and Dad's rules anymore. And just like that sort of arrangement: the cities need the rural areas a hell of a lot more than the rural areas need the cities. So you know, keep that in mind.
- icebraining 9y ago
  I want to preface by saying that I'm not arguing against the need for coastal cities to treat rural populations better. "I don't need you therefore I can mistreat you" is a shitty position that I would never take. > And just like that sort of arrangement: the cities need the rural areas a hell of a lot more than the rural areas need the cities. They may need the rural areas, but do they really need the rural population? I assume you're talking about farms, for food, fuel, etc, but from what I understand, most of that is produced by big farms, using mostly immigrant workers (legal and otherwise)[1]; not necessarily "big corp", but still, a relatively small percentage of the population[2]. In fact, most small scale farmers earn more money from other occupations[3]. It's not clear to me that cities actually need the non-immigrant rural population. [1] https://www.voanews.com/a/us-farmers-depend-on-illegal-immigrants-100541644/162082.html https://www.voanews.com/a/us-farmers-depend-on-illegal-immig... [2] https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/big-farms-are-getting-bigger-and-most-small-farms-arent-really-farms-at-all/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/big-farms-are-getting-b... [3] http://farmpolicynews.illinois.edu/2017/01/importance-non-farm-rural-economy-farm-household-income/ http://farmpolicynews.illinois.edu/2017/01/importance-non-fa...

by NTDF9 9y ago

Pica_soO 9y ago

Not a chance, that maybe, if you view family and community as a value and realize that all those people going to vanish in the hedonistic accid bath we labeled society will not contribute to either, its your right to withold support to this? Especially if those who turn theire back return to dissolve the livelihood of people without creating a worth-wile replacement? The fact that these communities basically with education create forces that harass and destroy them, makes the delay in backlash actually quite astounding.

NTDF9 9y ago
I never once said that liberal coastal lifestyles are the best way to live. What I was getting at is that the more educated people feel stifled in communities that disregard rational thought process. People out there are good but they have very little proclivity to critical thinking and desire for educated neighbors. An example is that they'd rather segregate the poor out than actually work towards building an educated society and uplift the unfortunate.
- Pica_soO 9y ago
  And in the citys, that happens? The schizophrenic bum below your appartment is uplifted by you? Or rather kept alive by some church/community driven support group? I grew up in a evangelical high religious environment, with some family members clearly having mental issues, that factored into religion (what you would consider extremism). Some of them viewed the city lifestyle and tech in particular as "parasites" leaching to religious communitys and countrys, as there society was not able to substain itself. I dislike that viewpoint, but disliking never made that piece of ugly truth go away. On the other side, these communities live longer and healthier by now- due to non-parasitic tech and as other countrys show, religious conservatism on its own, spirals into a eternal (every second gen) civil war, once all lands/ressources are used up. Could we agree upon, that both sides need one another- even though everyone in this thread has lovely family memorys.
  - TulliusCicero 9y ago
    > Some of them viewed the city lifestyle and tech in particular as "parasites" leaching to religious communitys and countrys, as there society was not able to substain itself. I dislike that viewpoint, but disliking never made that piece of ugly truth go away. Ugly truth? The major urban metros are the ones subsidizing the rural areas, just look at any state's map of each county's tax revenue generation vs spending. It's the rural, country areas that are mooching, the people living there just don't want to admit that the free market that they worship has abandoned them, because it turns out that effective modern commerce requires population density.
    - marchenko 9y ago
      If I'm reading Pica correctly, it seems like you two are talking about different things: Pica is referring to the scaffolding of values (social norms including high trust) and practice (proving services to community members) that 'rural/low income' communities value, and which invisibly support the modern economy on the local scale. Tullius seems to be referring to the economic and technological goods provided by the modern marketplace, which do indeed subsidize rural areas. I don't think the rural zones actually worship the free market, and that is part of the problem they have communicating their values to the economically successful, who tend to prefer arguments couched in terms of economic benefits rather than the vague social goods (low social friction, multiple status hierarchies, respect for religion, etc.) desired by the rural/traditional communities.
      - aaron-lebo 9y ago
        Your last paragraph is interesting. Never quite heard it described that way, but it makes a lot of sense. You drawing from any sources in particular for that?
        marchenko 9y ago
        This is the impression I have reading reportage from writers like Chris Arnade, where it seems like the poor and the majority of those writing about them are speaking at cross-purposes (not Arnade, but others in the genre of 'explaining the left-behinds'). I have heard that a similar argument is made in the book Seeing Like a State, which I have put on my reading list.
- cmahler7 9y ago
  The modern liberal ideology is based on completely ignoring facts and instead focusing on feels, there's nothing rational about it. I'd also argue the fact that liberals are "educated". The number of STEM graduates per year has basically stayed flat, liberal arts degrees account for almost all the new graduate gains over the last 30 years. The result is the massive elitism seen in liberals despite not really knowing anything of value. Hence the enlightened graduates with 50k+ in debt working minimum wage jobs. But at least they can stroke their ego about being superior to the plumber or electrician making 6 figures with no debt. >An example is that they'd rather segregate the poor out than actually work towards building an educated society and uplift the unfortunate SF spent 20 million last year on arresting homeless people and getting them out of the city. It's basically illegal to be homeless in SF, yet they are seen as the paragon of liberal values. Do as I say, not as I do.
  - kasey_junk 9y ago
    SF is largely not seen as a paragon of liberal values from my perspective. Quite the opposite, it's seen as what happens when you let rich people run amok.
mnm1 9y ago
WTF does this mean?
- ayrx 9y ago
  It very clearly shows the need for education.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Seems understandable to me: residents of these less educated communities see their kids get an education and that leading them to leave their home towns into the wider society (with its destructive hedonistic culture), and in turn to reject the values of their parents and even advocate for policies that destroy these communities. Hence these older generations resist getting their kids "too much" education. It's an interesting point, though it reminds me of this satirical ad on GTA SA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XydMKkHBL4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XydMKkHBL4
  - mnm1 9y ago
    Understandable? It's barely English. And wow, that's absolutely fucking disgusting on the part of the parents if what you say is true (I don't doubt it). Maybe the parents' values should be destroyed then. That is some fucked up shit. Hey, let's hold our kids back from advancing in life because our own stupid, small-minded beliefs dictate so. After all, it takes some real stupidity to judge all wider society cultures (yes, plural) as hedonistic and destructive.
    - icebraining 9y ago
      It's just my interpretation of Pica_soO's post, I've never even been to the US.
      - mnm1 9y ago
        Oh, I think your interpretation is rather accurate.
    - 9y ago
donquichotte 9y ago
This comment reads like the output of a Markov chain text generator.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  Not a very kind way to dismiss the point of someone who might not be a native speaker, yeah?: That is to say it's understandable.
  - saiya-jin 9y ago
    if I am a non-native speaker unsure of my level, I will do my best to use simple phrases to actually get the message across the board... exactly the opposite of this post. yeah, it reads as some google translator output on some sophisticated text

FussyZeus 9y ago

Speaking as another former rust-belter: none of this is untrue, but you're speaking as though this anti-authoritarian and anti-education attitude materialized from the ether, and it didn't. For decades the coastal cities have projected at every single turn in nearly every form of media (other than radio really, which is why it has such a strong presence in the rural areas) about how much better the coasts are, how much better the people are, and taken every single opportunity to thumb their nose at the social and community values that rural areas treasure. Combine that with the last 9 years or so, including the economic collapse and ensuing recovery that left any population center under several million basically to freeze and die, and the attitude of rural America is pretty easy to explain. You never gave a shit about what we had to say; why should we give a shit what you have to say now? That's not to say of course that I agree with this attitude. I'm just saying it gets really old to watch all my liberal friends scratching their heads like "Why don't they like us?" after you spent the last several decades pissing them off at every turn, like a college kid who just got their own apartment and doesn't have to live by Mom and Dad's rules anymore. And just like that sort of arrangement: the cities need the rural areas a hell of a lot more than the rural areas need the cities. So you know, keep that in mind.

icebraining 9y ago
I want to preface by saying that I'm not arguing against the need for coastal cities to treat rural populations better. "I don't need you therefore I can mistreat you" is a shitty position that I would never take. > And just like that sort of arrangement: the cities need the rural areas a hell of a lot more than the rural areas need the cities. They may need the rural areas, but do they really need the rural population? I assume you're talking about farms, for food, fuel, etc, but from what I understand, most of that is produced by big farms, using mostly immigrant workers (legal and otherwise)[1]; not necessarily "big corp", but still, a relatively small percentage of the population[2]. In fact, most small scale farmers earn more money from other occupations[3]. It's not clear to me that cities actually need the non-immigrant rural population. [1] https://www.voanews.com/a/us-farmers-depend-on-illegal-immigrants-100541644/162082.html https://www.voanews.com/a/us-farmers-depend-on-illegal-immig... [2] https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/big-farms-are-getting-bigger-and-most-small-farms-arent-really-farms-at-all/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/big-farms-are-getting-b... [3] http://farmpolicynews.illinois.edu/2017/01/importance-non-farm-rural-economy-farm-household-income/ http://farmpolicynews.illinois.edu/2017/01/importance-non-fa...