6 ms·

As someone from a place in the Rust Belt that's well in the triple digits of this 150-city ranking, I think I have a little insight. The problem isn't a lack o

by csense 9y ago

As someone from a place in the Rust Belt that's well in the triple digits of this 150-city ranking, I think I have a little insight. The problem isn't a lack of smart, ambitious kids. It's not bad schools. There are even multiple universities. The problem's that the smart, ambitious kids mostly choose to move elsewhere after HS or college. Even for the ones that want to stay, the local economy and job market isn't that great. We need to improve the level at which you attract/retain both educated people and well-paying jobs for them. How do we do that, given that both are at fairly low levels and it's something like a chicken-or-egg problem?

NTDF9 9y ago
As a person who's been about in those areas, I think part of the reason is the mass-delusion that education and sciences is somehow a bad thing. Far too many common folks out in the country think that education is not worth it, science is not worth learning, healthcare and public transportation is second-class. It shows in the way they live, the way they socialize, the way they vote. They'd rather spend money on Church than healthcare. They'd rather worry about their individual taxes than on improving schools and teaching critical thinking and sciences. The really ambitious/educated kids realize that it is a (apologies) shit-hole and get out asap.
- Pica_soO 9y ago
  Not a chance, that maybe, if you view family and community as a value and realize that all those people going to vanish in the hedonistic accid bath we labeled society will not contribute to either, its your right to withold support to this? Especially if those who turn theire back return to dissolve the livelihood of people without creating a worth-wile replacement? The fact that these communities basically with education create forces that harass and destroy them, makes the delay in backlash actually quite astounding.
  - NTDF9 9y ago
    I never once said that liberal coastal lifestyles are the best way to live. What I was getting at is that the more educated people feel stifled in communities that disregard rational thought process. People out there are good but they have very little proclivity to critical thinking and desire for educated neighbors. An example is that they'd rather segregate the poor out than actually work towards building an educated society and uplift the unfortunate.
    - Pica_soO 9y ago
      And in the citys, that happens? The schizophrenic bum below your appartment is uplifted by you? Or rather kept alive by some church/community driven support group? I grew up in a evangelical high religious environment, with some family members clearly having mental issues, that factored into religion (what you would consider extremism). Some of them viewed the city lifestyle and tech in particular as "parasites" leaching to religious communitys and countrys, as there society was not able to substain itself. I dislike that viewpoint, but disliking never made that piece of ugly truth go away. On the other side, these communities live longer and healthier by now- due to non-parasitic tech and as other countrys show, religious conservatism on its own, spirals into a eternal (every second gen) civil war, once all lands/ressources are used up. Could we agree upon, that both sides need one another- even though everyone in this thread has lovely family memorys.
      - TulliusCicero 9y ago
        > Some of them viewed the city lifestyle and tech in particular as "parasites" leaching to religious communitys and countrys, as there society was not able to substain itself. I dislike that viewpoint, but disliking never made that piece of ugly truth go away. Ugly truth? The major urban metros are the ones subsidizing the rural areas, just look at any state's map of each county's tax revenue generation vs spending. It's the rural, country areas that are mooching, the people living there just don't want to admit that the free market that they worship has abandoned them, because it turns out that effective modern commerce requires population density.
        9y ago
  - mnm1 9y ago
    WTF does this mean?
    - ayrx 9y ago
      It very clearly shows the need for education.
    - icebraining 9y ago
      Seems understandable to me: residents of these less educated communities see their kids get an education and that leading them to leave their home towns into the wider society (with its destructive hedonistic culture), and in turn to reject the values of their parents and even advocate for policies that destroy these communities. Hence these older generations resist getting their kids "too much" education. It's an interesting point, though it reminds me of this satirical ad on GTA SA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XydMKkHBL4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XydMKkHBL4
      - mnm1 9y ago
        Understandable? It's barely English. And wow, that's absolutely fucking disgusting on the part of the parents if what you say is true (I don't doubt it). Maybe the parents' values should be destroyed then. That is some fucked up shit. Hey, let's hold our kids back from advancing in life because our own stupid, small-minded beliefs dictate so. After all, it takes some real stupidity to judge all wider society cultures (yes, plural) as hedonistic and destructive.
        icebraining 9y ago
        It's just my interpretation of Pica_soO's post, I've never even been to the US.
        mnm1 9y ago
        Oh, I think your interpretation is rather accurate.
        9y ago
  - donquichotte 9y ago
    This comment reads like the output of a Markov chain text generator.
    - aaron-lebo 9y ago
      Not a very kind way to dismiss the point of someone who might not be a native speaker, yeah?: That is to say it's understandable.
      - saiya-jin 9y ago
        if I am a non-native speaker unsure of my level, I will do my best to use simple phrases to actually get the message across the board... exactly the opposite of this post. yeah, it reads as some google translator output on some sophisticated text
- FussyZeus 9y ago
  Speaking as another former rust-belter: none of this is untrue, but you're speaking as though this anti-authoritarian and anti-education attitude materialized from the ether, and it didn't. For decades the coastal cities have projected at every single turn in nearly every form of media (other than radio really, which is why it has such a strong presence in the rural areas) about how much better the coasts are, how much better the people are, and taken every single opportunity to thumb their nose at the social and community values that rural areas treasure. Combine that with the last 9 years or so, including the economic collapse and ensuing recovery that left any population center under several million basically to freeze and die, and the attitude of rural America is pretty easy to explain. You never gave a shit about what we had to say; why should we give a shit what you have to say now? That's not to say of course that I agree with this attitude. I'm just saying it gets really old to watch all my liberal friends scratching their heads like "Why don't they like us?" after you spent the last several decades pissing them off at every turn, like a college kid who just got their own apartment and doesn't have to live by Mom and Dad's rules anymore. And just like that sort of arrangement: the cities need the rural areas a hell of a lot more than the rural areas need the cities. So you know, keep that in mind.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    I want to preface by saying that I'm not arguing against the need for coastal cities to treat rural populations better. "I don't need you therefore I can mistreat you" is a shitty position that I would never take. > And just like that sort of arrangement: the cities need the rural areas a hell of a lot more than the rural areas need the cities. They may need the rural areas, but do they really need the rural population? I assume you're talking about farms, for food, fuel, etc, but from what I understand, most of that is produced by big farms, using mostly immigrant workers (legal and otherwise)[1]; not necessarily "big corp", but still, a relatively small percentage of the population[2]. In fact, most small scale farmers earn more money from other occupations[3]. It's not clear to me that cities actually need the non-immigrant rural population. [1] https://www.voanews.com/a/us-farmers-depend-on-illegal-immigrants-100541644/162082.html https://www.voanews.com/a/us-farmers-depend-on-illegal-immig... [2] https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/big-farms-are-getting-bigger-and-most-small-farms-arent-really-farms-at-all/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/big-farms-are-getting-b... [3] http://farmpolicynews.illinois.edu/2017/01/importance-non-farm-rural-economy-farm-household-income/ http://farmpolicynews.illinois.edu/2017/01/importance-non-fa...
losvedir 9y ago
> The problem's that the smart, ambitious kids mostly choose to move elsewhere after HS or college. Even for the ones that want to stay, the local economy and job market isn't that great. Agreed. In fact, I think the entire thing driving the data here is population flow. I grew up in #148 (Porterville) and moved to #6 (Boston) in the list for school. And most of the people I know in Boston didn't themselves grow up there. A city could have the best education system in the world, but if it didn't have a thriving economy to keep its graduates it would still show up low on this list. On the other hand, a city with a crap education system can still hire in the best graduates of other schools if it has the jobs to draw them. I'm not even sure what data I'd be curious to see here. I was going to say it would be interesting to look at most educated cities considering only people born and raised there. But someone living in the same place all their life is so rare anymore, I'm not sure how meaningful that would be. Maybe just looking at people who graduated college there would be cool; after you graduate you're more likely to just stick around if you can. If that's the case, I guess the takeaway would be to try to establish strong universities in every city?
le-mark 9y ago
I'm asking myself, what's the problem here? The lack of bachelors degree holders working the counter at Starbucks in these cities? The time of universal University education has passed. The middle class is shrinking and has shrunk. For example, the guy I know who opted for HVAC trade school and started his own company, he didn't get the broad university education, but he's run his own business for 20 years, working with and for people of all socioeconomic statuses and races. University isn't for everyone, this idea that it is just isn't helpful.

by csense 9y ago

NTDF9 9y ago

As a person who's been about in those areas, I think part of the reason is the mass-delusion that education and sciences is somehow a bad thing. Far too many common folks out in the country think that education is not worth it, science is not worth learning, healthcare and public transportation is second-class. It shows in the way they live, the way they socialize, the way they vote. They'd rather spend money on Church than healthcare. They'd rather worry about their individual taxes than on improving schools and teaching critical thinking and sciences. The really ambitious/educated kids realize that it is a (apologies) shit-hole and get out asap.

Pica_soO 9y ago
Not a chance, that maybe, if you view family and community as a value and realize that all those people going to vanish in the hedonistic accid bath we labeled society will not contribute to either, its your right to withold support to this? Especially if those who turn theire back return to dissolve the livelihood of people without creating a worth-wile replacement? The fact that these communities basically with education create forces that harass and destroy them, makes the delay in backlash actually quite astounding.
- NTDF9 9y ago
  I never once said that liberal coastal lifestyles are the best way to live. What I was getting at is that the more educated people feel stifled in communities that disregard rational thought process. People out there are good but they have very little proclivity to critical thinking and desire for educated neighbors. An example is that they'd rather segregate the poor out than actually work towards building an educated society and uplift the unfortunate.
  - Pica_soO 9y ago
    And in the citys, that happens? The schizophrenic bum below your appartment is uplifted by you? Or rather kept alive by some church/community driven support group? I grew up in a evangelical high religious environment, with some family members clearly having mental issues, that factored into religion (what you would consider extremism). Some of them viewed the city lifestyle and tech in particular as "parasites" leaching to religious communitys and countrys, as there society was not able to substain itself. I dislike that viewpoint, but disliking never made that piece of ugly truth go away. On the other side, these communities live longer and healthier by now- due to non-parasitic tech and as other countrys show, religious conservatism on its own, spirals into a eternal (every second gen) civil war, once all lands/ressources are used up. Could we agree upon, that both sides need one another- even though everyone in this thread has lovely family memorys.
    - TulliusCicero 9y ago
      > Some of them viewed the city lifestyle and tech in particular as "parasites" leaching to religious communitys and countrys, as there society was not able to substain itself. I dislike that viewpoint, but disliking never made that piece of ugly truth go away. Ugly truth? The major urban metros are the ones subsidizing the rural areas, just look at any state's map of each county's tax revenue generation vs spending. It's the rural, country areas that are mooching, the people living there just don't want to admit that the free market that they worship has abandoned them, because it turns out that effective modern commerce requires population density.
      - 9y ago
- mnm1 9y ago
  WTF does this mean?
  - ayrx 9y ago
    It very clearly shows the need for education.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Seems understandable to me: residents of these less educated communities see their kids get an education and that leading them to leave their home towns into the wider society (with its destructive hedonistic culture), and in turn to reject the values of their parents and even advocate for policies that destroy these communities. Hence these older generations resist getting their kids "too much" education. It's an interesting point, though it reminds me of this satirical ad on GTA SA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XydMKkHBL4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XydMKkHBL4
    - mnm1 9y ago
      Understandable? It's barely English. And wow, that's absolutely fucking disgusting on the part of the parents if what you say is true (I don't doubt it). Maybe the parents' values should be destroyed then. That is some fucked up shit. Hey, let's hold our kids back from advancing in life because our own stupid, small-minded beliefs dictate so. After all, it takes some real stupidity to judge all wider society cultures (yes, plural) as hedonistic and destructive.
      - icebraining 9y ago
        It's just my interpretation of Pica_soO's post, I've never even been to the US.
        mnm1 9y ago
        Oh, I think your interpretation is rather accurate.
      - 9y ago
- donquichotte 9y ago
  This comment reads like the output of a Markov chain text generator.
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    Not a very kind way to dismiss the point of someone who might not be a native speaker, yeah?: That is to say it's understandable.
    - saiya-jin 9y ago
      if I am a non-native speaker unsure of my level, I will do my best to use simple phrases to actually get the message across the board... exactly the opposite of this post. yeah, it reads as some google translator output on some sophisticated text
FussyZeus 9y ago
Speaking as another former rust-belter: none of this is untrue, but you're speaking as though this anti-authoritarian and anti-education attitude materialized from the ether, and it didn't. For decades the coastal cities have projected at every single turn in nearly every form of media (other than radio really, which is why it has such a strong presence in the rural areas) about how much better the coasts are, how much better the people are, and taken every single opportunity to thumb their nose at the social and community values that rural areas treasure. Combine that with the last 9 years or so, including the economic collapse and ensuing recovery that left any population center under several million basically to freeze and die, and the attitude of rural America is pretty easy to explain. You never gave a shit about what we had to say; why should we give a shit what you have to say now? That's not to say of course that I agree with this attitude. I'm just saying it gets really old to watch all my liberal friends scratching their heads like "Why don't they like us?" after you spent the last several decades pissing them off at every turn, like a college kid who just got their own apartment and doesn't have to live by Mom and Dad's rules anymore. And just like that sort of arrangement: the cities need the rural areas a hell of a lot more than the rural areas need the cities. So you know, keep that in mind.
- icebraining 9y ago
  I want to preface by saying that I'm not arguing against the need for coastal cities to treat rural populations better. "I don't need you therefore I can mistreat you" is a shitty position that I would never take. > And just like that sort of arrangement: the cities need the rural areas a hell of a lot more than the rural areas need the cities. They may need the rural areas, but do they really need the rural population? I assume you're talking about farms, for food, fuel, etc, but from what I understand, most of that is produced by big farms, using mostly immigrant workers (legal and otherwise)[1]; not necessarily "big corp", but still, a relatively small percentage of the population[2]. In fact, most small scale farmers earn more money from other occupations[3]. It's not clear to me that cities actually need the non-immigrant rural population. [1] https://www.voanews.com/a/us-farmers-depend-on-illegal-immigrants-100541644/162082.html https://www.voanews.com/a/us-farmers-depend-on-illegal-immig... [2] https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/big-farms-are-getting-bigger-and-most-small-farms-arent-really-farms-at-all/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/big-farms-are-getting-b... [3] http://farmpolicynews.illinois.edu/2017/01/importance-non-farm-rural-economy-farm-household-income/ http://farmpolicynews.illinois.edu/2017/01/importance-non-fa...

losvedir 9y ago

> The problem's that the smart, ambitious kids mostly choose to move elsewhere after HS or college. Even for the ones that want to stay, the local economy and job market isn't that great. Agreed. In fact, I think the entire thing driving the data here is population flow. I grew up in #148 (Porterville) and moved to #6 (Boston) in the list for school. And most of the people I know in Boston didn't themselves grow up there. A city could have the best education system in the world, but if it didn't have a thriving economy to keep its graduates it would still show up low on this list. On the other hand, a city with a crap education system can still hire in the best graduates of other schools if it has the jobs to draw them. I'm not even sure what data I'd be curious to see here. I was going to say it would be interesting to look at most educated cities considering only people born and raised there. But someone living in the same place all their life is so rare anymore, I'm not sure how meaningful that would be. Maybe just looking at people who graduated college there would be cool; after you graduate you're more likely to just stick around if you can. If that's the case, I guess the takeaway would be to try to establish strong universities in every city?

le-mark 9y ago

I'm asking myself, what's the problem here? The lack of bachelors degree holders working the counter at Starbucks in these cities? The time of universal University education has passed. The middle class is shrinking and has shrunk. For example, the guy I know who opted for HVAC trade school and started his own company, he didn't get the broad university education, but he's run his own business for 20 years, working with and for people of all socioeconomic statuses and races. University isn't for everyone, this idea that it is just isn't helpful.