24 ms·
Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise
- mirimir 9y agoWow. Hill reportedly posted the false allegations on Hatena from his actual Comcast IP address. That was just so stupid. Not even using a bloody VPN service, let alone Tor.
- abhi3 9y ago> Nevertheless, the threat of defamation suits can stifle women from coming forward, even if they have legitimate accusations of sexual harassment, she said. The accused must usually be given the benefit of doubt in cases of anonymous allegations without any corroborating evidence. But cases like these should not be used to cast doubt on the motive/credibility of women brave enough to risk their identity and careers to come out.
- marcoperaza 9y agoA mere accusation should never be enough to believe someone is guilty.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- taneq 9y ago> The accused must usually be given the benefit of doubt in cases of anonymous allegations without any corroborating evidence. The accused must always be given the benefit of the doubt in case of any allegations without corroborating evidence. This current trend of "anyone accused of sexual harassment is guilty unless proven innocent" is not justice.
- tepidandroid 9y agoCareful with that kind if talk here. In this kind of social political climate logic does not always prevail. Just go look at some past HN threads regarding sexual harassment. The sheer number of people who react emotionally to allegations of sexual harassment is truly astounding. All rationality goes out the window with men throwing themselves over each other to proclaim "I BELIEVE YOU" instead of asking for the least bit of corroborating evidence.
- adjkant 9y agoThis is a huge straw man if I've ever seen one (and present in many other posts on this thread). To act as if there isn't any logic in the opposing side isn't going to get anywhere. Because of the very nature of sexual assault, providing evidence up to the standards of the US criminal legal system is very hard to do. It likely means that more harassers get off and very few get wrongful sentences. The logic in supporting a standard that requires less than the US criminal legal system currently is that it will help put away many more guilty people and put away few/none non-guilty people given the rarity of false accusations with evidence that would say, pass a 50/50 guilt test. The lack of criminal recourse leads to a court of public opinion being the victim's only option often. The court of public opinion is far from fair, which leads back to the idea of working on the criminal recourse options to allow for more victims to actually report and fix this. You can disagree with some of the premises of that argument, but it's a valid one (philosophically speaking). In this case, someone was wrongly accused, and even under a 50/50 system, it's clear the charges would not go through, and yes obviously the pre-meditated wrongful accuser should face a punishment. I think some jail time for a pre-meditated false accusation is more than fair. But a discussion and a call for a different legal standard given the uniqueness of these types of cases is perfectly logical. Instead of complaining about the public lynch mob and blaming the mass of people who likely won't stop, discuss and focus on the problems that prevent it. Like actually getting rape kits tested, creating more avenues for sexual assault reporting via a calmer system than anonymous blog posts, etc.
- aklemm 9y agoMassive disservice to women in general.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- jmcgough 9y agoIncidents like this and that Rolling Stone article do so much damage to real victims of sexual harassment/assault.
- qq66 9y agoPart of the problem is that the penalties for doing this are usually just civil. I imagine people's behavior would be very different if the next person who manufactured an allegation to attack a business competitor got a twenty-year (or even two-year) jail sentence.
- celeritascelery 9y agoCompletely agree. Rape will land you jail for a long time (as it should) but rape hoaxing has almost no consequences.
- vkou 9y agoLet's suppose that false rape accusations are a wide-spread problem. They aren't, they are far rarer then actual cases of rape, but let's suppose that they are. How exactly do you propose to deal with them, without a chilling effect on reporting real rapes? It is a crime that is notoriously hard to convict, to the point where most victims keep silent.
- aqsheehy 9y agoSpeaking as someone with no legal specialization at all, I would assume it would only be for those cases where it could be proven that the false accusation was premeditated?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- hdhdbebbbdhdvd 9y agoA problem can be serious without being wide-spread, and this is a great example -- false accusations (of any crime), though rare, sow the seeds of doubt in the testimony of every accuser. Every widely publicized false accusation (Duke lacrosse rape, etc) causes hundreds or perhaps even thousands of real rapists to go free and rape more people, since jurors take the possibility of a false accusation as "reasonable doubt." As with any crime, the evidentiary standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt" -- to convict someone for false testimony, you would need to conclusively prove that they did so willfully. This is already the law, the crime is called perjury -- it's just that the punishments are so mild that they are not serious deterrents. Imagine if making willfully false allegations of a crime was punished by twice the prison sentence of the crime being accused -- I bet one VC wouldn't try to poke another in the eye with a false sexual harassment blog post.
- tanilama 9y agoWhat will happen to this Hill guy?
- abhi3 9y agoHe'll end up paying millions of dollars in damages most likely not covered by insurance and might be subject to criminal charges if the State decides to prosecute
- tanilama 9y agoWow, sounds about right. Hopefully, set up as a good example for people who prepare to follow his suit.
- zaroth 9y agoAre you a lawyer? Because this sounds like fantasy.
- abhi3 9y agoYes, I am a lawyer. Succesful defamation lawsuits usually get multi-million dollar damage awards, most recent case was the Hulk Hogan case against Gawker where 100 million+ damages were awarded and Gawker filed for bankruptcy. Insurance doesn't usually cover liability due to defamatory behavior and in any case, it is rare for individuals to hold such policies. Now I am not familiar with the US or Japenese Criminal Code but there must be something that criminalizes such behavior, but prosecution is at the discretion of the DA (or in this case where the incident crosses international borders even the US Attorney could prosecute)
- ruytlm 9y agoHonestly, this doesn't surprise me; seems fairly indicative of the culture. Yes, this is an extreme case, but who hasn't seen things like leaving 1-star reviews of competitors, or frivolous complaints to consume competitors' resources? This is what happens when a culture encourages people to use any opportunity to get ahead - and it's those with real claims that suffer from this crying wolf.
- smaili 9y agoFor those curious, here is the accused rival's about page - http://btrax.com/en/about-us/ http://btrax.com/en/about-us/
- mbesto 9y agoThat's right, no one would ever abuse an online system for blacklisting VCs accused of sexual harassment...smh https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14773434 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14773434
- microcolonel 9y agoYeah, they're basically industrial-scale defamation without recourse, trial, or evidence. From a game-theoretic perspective, you would be wrong not to take advantage of it to burn your competitors. If it hasn't dawned on you, this is a political strategy, not a tool for the downtrodden. I have quite literally heard people talking about these things as "the way we'll close the gender participation gap", as in, they'll burn men's careers until things equal out. As stupid as this sounds, the fact that people are thinking it is alarming.
- AlexCoventry 9y ago> have quite literally heard people talking about these things as "the way we'll close the gender participation gap", as in, they'll burn men's careers until things equal out. Where? Any transcripts/ video?
- pryce 9y ago> have quite literally heard people talking about these things as "the way we'll close the gender participation gap", as in, they'll burn men's careers until things equal out. How does your quote imply your interpretation of malicious intent at all? If someone believes (rightly or wrongly) that the gap in participation in certain industries is because women feel unsafe participating in those industries from harassment etc, reducing harassment and providing avenues for those women to address that problem would naturally act to "close the gender participation gap". I wouldn't care to speculate what proportion of the gender participation gap is in fact due to women's experiences of harassment and/or anxieties about such -as I simply don't know, and would prefer to defer to women and the people who research these things-, but there is a pretty obvious and quite benign interpretation to your quote that you are choosing to ignore.
- tabeth 9y agoWhy do accusations result in people automatically being labeled as "guilty" anyway?
- fweespeech 9y agoBecause people would rather rely on gossip than facts. Its easier and requires no real effort.
- Pica_soO 9y agoWhite Knight Syndrom
- ulucs 9y agoPeople really need to catch up on the 5th amendment.
- paul7986 9y agohmmm is this story legitimate or fake news? Something seems off to me here
- wand3r 9y agoThis world is getting so fucked up. We can't crucify people for "hitting on" or other somewhat tame behavior because we have nothing left to throw at the real offenders. Conversely, people benefit on both sides of the equation; using sex to their advantage or weaponizing allegations like this. Sexual assualt is REAL and should be punished. We need to focus on a balance between being human and being a predator. People are fucked up. You have rapists, liars, sociopaths and ladder climbers and guys and girls who get overwhelmed by greed, desperation or just stupidity and break their otherwise decent character. The media makes it fucking impossible to tell people apart. Great example was the 500 startups thing. I am prepared to believe that there was some dodgy ass shit going on and he was being a scumbag; but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth not knowing the full extent of what happened and watching the accuser ride the publicity to raise a round. This is so messy. Is this just how the game is played? Leverage on both sides used as a weapon instead of just treating humans like humans. Sad to see false accusations. Sad to see real ones. Sad to see people capitalizing on this climate, and the most sad: People who really really hurt (either reputation or physically) just getting killed in the crossfire on top of the horrible events. This is sick.
- thereare5lights 9y agoOh stop spewing bs about sexual harassment as "hitting on" people. The accusations against the VCs McClure and Pollock involved groping or worse.
- Dude2018 9y agoWhat about using lipstick to emulate sexual arousal? Why did they use make up doing business?
- marchenko 9y agoPerhaps these lipstick-wearing women were raised in a social environment where a previously supernormal stimulus (heightened lip pigmentation/smoothed glossy lip surface) is now expected as a normal aspect of professional presentation in many contexts, and they do not wish to be asked "are you feeling well?" on a regular basis.
- themgt 9y agoSonya Smallets, another San Francisco employment attorney, called the Fenox case “very unusual.” Nevertheless, the threat of defamation suits can stifle women from coming forward, even if they have legitimate accusations of sexual harassment, she said. “Obviously you don’t want people to be able to make up things about other people and harm their reputations,” Smallets said, “but there’s also obviously a concern that if you have women who are accusing powerful, wealthy men of sexual harassment, that a defamation lawsuit can have a chilling effect.” This is just a ridiculous and offensive thing to say, and way to end the article, given the circumstances and evidence. It would be akin to commenting on a case with blatant evidence of harassment that "obviously there's a concern that a harassment lawsuit can have a chilling effect on office interpersonal relationships." A situation where a man was blatantly lying to abuse the law and defame a competitor isn't the moment to make the "chilling effect" argument.
- sauronlord 9y agoTold you. Anonymous accusations of being sexually harassed can only last so long. Bunch of losers
- AKifer 9y agoProfiteers always exist, seeking for loopholes and sneaky tactics to attain their goals. The system should punish offenders and protect victims, but MUST ensure that those who sneakily use that as a tool to achieve other goals MUST be punished 10x harsher.
- Kenji 9y agoI would simply put a law in place that if it can be proven that the sexual harassment accusation is completely fabricated, then the accuser must serve the exact jail time that a person would serve who acted out all the accusations. That would stop all the shenanigans instantly.
- Rjevski 9y agoThis should be extended to all crimes and not only sexual harassment.
- fenomas 9y agoFor anyone curious, I hunted down an archive of what appears to have been the original (Japanese, now deleted) blog post: http://archive.fo/6MU5K http://archive.fo/6MU5K
- danmaz74 9y agoHow can an anonymous online accusation without any evidence even get considered a thing? Are we back to 16th century witch-hunts? Whoever gives publicity to accusations like this for the clicks, without checking their sources at all, should rightfully be persecuted for defamation.
- b3lvedere 9y agoBack? We never left it.
- jopsen 9y ago> the next person who manufactured an allegation to attack a business competitor got a twenty-year (or even two-year) jail sentence. haha, typical Americans... let's throw more people in jail. Empathy is in short supply for sure.
- qq66 9y agoWhen economic power begets political power, the state's justice molds to the needs of those with money. Thus, Purdue Pharmaceuticals executives who knowingly misled doctors about the medication OxyContin, causing the explosion of opiate addiction that kills 50,000 people per year, were not even sentenced to a day in jail, but rather paid completely affordable fines both personally and as a corporation. My empathy is with the victims of those kinds of crimes that the powerful have had rewritten into misdemeanors, not with the perpetrators.
- phrygian 9y agoYou may need to contextualise your statement. Empathy in what sense? There is a nonzero chance the falsely accused might actually get thrown in jail, not to talk about the potentially immense reputational damage that may be difficult to repair. I'm not really sure what you are getting at with your pitch.
- sctb 9y agoWe detached this flagged subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14853781 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14853781.
- imartin2k 9y agoThe problem with this whole debate that follows stories about sexual harassment is that no matter how it is being sliced, it always leads to a skewed image of reality. The reality, in my eyes, would be something like this: - People walk around looking more or less intelligently, but almost all have primal sexual urges that they are frequently seeking or at least thinking about to fulfill. That applies to women and men. - Society is built in a way which only allows people to make subtle hints about this desire. It is unacceptable to display too much sexual desires in most contexts of public and professional life. There is an animal in everyone but it must not come out. - The dynamics that play out during the process of finding a mate are complex, happen in parts unconsciously, and are the result of evolutionary biology and psychology. Meaning, everyone does things to attract a mate which he/she might not be "aware" of - and which sometimes appear extremely stupid in hindsight (Bill Clinton or Dave McClure anyone?!). - There is a gender difference in the heterosexual mating process. Men impress women with power, status (often = money), display of dominance, achievements, and often make the first approach (sometimes after they think they saw a behavior from her side which correctly or wrongly suggested them that she might be interested). Women select the men who they go on a date with. This does not apply always, you can find different variations of this and also the occasional woman who takes pride in having been the one who did the approach. I also don't make a statement about whether this behavior is learned or innate, or both; but based on the current information I have I feel comfortable enough to generalize this dynamic. I suggest that one can even see this behavior in apps like Tinder where most women let a man write first after a match (sadly I don't have a scientific study about this - it is just personal observation, own experience, from talks with friends and observations of cultural norms) - therefore, I am curious about how Bumble will do on the market. If it becomes a big hit with the current concept to require women to write first after a match, what I wrote in the last sentences will prove to be wrong. - If we want awareness and a change of behavior, everyone needs to learn to understand these dynamics, and needs to understand that regardless of gender, he/she also operating to some extend outside of the normal rational and reasonable thought procedure.
- etjossem 9y agoHow about instead we just agree not to hit on each other within a power-imbalanced professional relationship? Seriously, I don't get how this is hard for folks. It's unbelievably simple. Be aware that you may have professional power over other people, and if you do, make an active effort not to flirt with them. Have the self-restraint not to mix an investment/supervisory relationship with romance or sex. Either it will feel coercive, or it's a conflict of interest waiting to happen. Avoiding trying to sleep with your subordinates is not rocket surgery.
- throwitlong 9y ago"Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream"
- cm2187 9y agoWhat's interesting is that seeking a court order to unveil the IP of an anonymous accuser can be seen as attempting to uncover the identity of a whistle blower and would leave the person trying to defend himself in hot water in certain companies. This is a minefield.
- bitL 9y agoUgh, now I am starting to understand those men that are dropping out of society - one such a claim and they are done; it must be dire if they decided it's better to minimize risk and segregate from society... We all are probably going to wear mini cameras/mics and record every single moment of our lives for protection, and won't trust a single human being. Scary...
- selllikesybok 9y agoDone. Or POTUS. Or may it's like that Rostand quote.
- matt4077 9y agoThousands of women experience sexual violence, every day. What gets Hacker News as excited as the end of Flash? The rare false accusation.
- ruleabidinguser 9y agoI guess we're all evil women haters then
- matt4077 9y agoBy and large, yes. (Although, and it bears repeating: in this case everyone is hating on those women running around falsely accusing good upstanding men just for the fun of it, without ever realising that the false accuser in this case is actually a man)
- stillkicking 9y agoThe idea that false rape accusations are extremely rare and hence don't matter is a) not supported by evidence and b) unjust even if it were true. If you are concerned about this topic, perhaps you should aim your complaints at the people caught time and time again carrying water for girls who cried wolf, even after their lies fell apart. Mattress girl comes to mind. Drop the obsessive notion of treating women as automatic victims and start seeking actual gender equality, and you will stop seeing a gender-based backlash. I also don't really see the point of complaining that people assume the accuser is female, when you bring up women as victims yourself without context.
- Chris2048 9y agoWhat should make the news? The usual events, or the unusual ones?
- matt4077 9y agoWhile you're all hate raging on women, please note that the false accuser was actually a man. Sucks to be woman, I guess. First you're raped. And then Hacker News will probably tell you to go take a hike and stop being a man-hating SWJ. Because other men have started using false rape accusations to get their startup off the ground.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Evolved 9y agoIf the burden of proof is on the prosecution then, similarly, why isn't the burden on the victim to prove they were actually sexually harrassed? This isn't victim-BLAMING. This is simply an accuser having to prove their case and there is nothing wrong with that.
- dragonwriter 9y ago> If the burden of proof is on the prosecution then, similarly, why isn't the burden on the victim to prove they were actually sexually harrassed? It is when they are suing for harassment; there was no formal accusation in this case, just an anonymous blog post.
- smt88 9y ago> why isn't the burden on the victim Because there is often a massive power imbalance between the harasser and the victim. Either way, for any legal consequences to take place, the victim must prove his/her accusation. There is no system in the world that can protect people's careers and reputations. If a false accusation is made and the accused person can prove it, then a lawsuit will often be filed (as in the case above).
- Evolved 9y agoWhy isn't there something synonymous with a grand jury convening privately to determine if the case has enough merit to go forward? This seems like a step in the right direction to protect reputations. Otherwise, it is reminiscent of the false accusations about political candidates in the 1940s/1950s making wildly false accusations, which forced their opponents to spend time and money to defend the claims. It still happens today as well although it seems easier to defend claims via social media and the 24hr news cycle having to keep up with all sorts of stories that draw people's attention.
- Charismatic 9y ago"But even as women’s stories bring about real change — including forcing accused harassers out of their jobs —" Apparently, forcing accused (not convicted) harasser out of their jobs is "real change". And then these people wonder why fake harassment charges might be used to fuck with people.