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> We got over 100 applicants for every software position. How many of them passed FizzBuzz? Chicago outskirts is also not California. Try a software position

> We got over 100 applicants for every software position. How many of them passed FizzBuzz? Chicago outskirts is also not California. Try a software position with low pay, crappy benefits at an unknown software company in California and report back. Bonus points if you try it in the Bay Area.

kuschku 9y ago
If they don’t pass FizzBuzz, you try to teach them for 6 months until they do fit into your company. Is that so hard? Training on the job used to be common, and for entry level positions it should be possible at least. EDIT: Okay, maybe not FizzBuzz, but the lots of "10 years experience with Angular 4" and co at least, and in general sometimes testing people more on actual tasks than on invented exercises. Even in Germany in the first few weeks you can terminate employees for any reason, so you don’t need to be too selective with hiring.
- m52go 9y ago
  I think the issue there is determining who is worth training. But yeah in general I agree with you.
- sunir 9y ago
  Yes, it is hard. Try it and show your rapidly scaling workforce.
  - kuschku 9y ago
    This is not something for startups, indeed. But not everything has to scale rapidly. Many businesses scale slowly over decades, centuries or millenia.
- SilasX 9y ago
  Whoa there. You should definitely allow time to learn particular frameworks, but FizzBuzz is a fundamental competency issue that even hobbyists should be able to pass.
- Daishiman 9y ago
  You're not going to teach a person to be a productive developer in 6 months.
- gpawl 9y ago
  If someone can't pass FizzBuzz, they need a year or two of education to be useful as a programmer, and might never make it. Sure, you can hire someone to do helpdesk and help them try to grow into a programmer, but you can't hire a programmer who knows nothing, and then entrust them to not ruin your company, destroy your data, etc.
- morugin 9y ago
  I've wondered how it would be to train someone using an apprenticeship model. I read some posts here by people who took a pay cut to become bootcamp instructors (for a season or two). A lot of them mentioned the satisfaction they got by being able to create real value in someone's life... I guess only a certain demographic of people would even want to do an apprenticeship. Only apprenticeship programs I've heard of are for lower wage jobs. So, poor people may benefit from an apprenticeship. Mid-career changers might also benefit. CS degrees would be overqualified. It would require significant time and effort. Not possible without company support. Still, to take a mind that can't see what we see to one that can and the amount of value created as a result, might be worth it.

kuschku 9y ago

If they don’t pass FizzBuzz, you try to teach them for 6 months until they do fit into your company. Is that so hard? Training on the job used to be common, and for entry level positions it should be possible at least. EDIT: Okay, maybe not FizzBuzz, but the lots of "10 years experience with Angular 4" and co at least, and in general sometimes testing people more on actual tasks than on invented exercises. Even in Germany in the first few weeks you can terminate employees for any reason, so you don’t need to be too selective with hiring.

m52go 9y ago
I think the issue there is determining who is worth training. But yeah in general I agree with you.
sunir 9y ago
Yes, it is hard. Try it and show your rapidly scaling workforce.
- kuschku 9y ago
  This is not something for startups, indeed. But not everything has to scale rapidly. Many businesses scale slowly over decades, centuries or millenia.
SilasX 9y ago
Whoa there. You should definitely allow time to learn particular frameworks, but FizzBuzz is a fundamental competency issue that even hobbyists should be able to pass.
Daishiman 9y ago
You're not going to teach a person to be a productive developer in 6 months.
gpawl 9y ago
If someone can't pass FizzBuzz, they need a year or two of education to be useful as a programmer, and might never make it. Sure, you can hire someone to do helpdesk and help them try to grow into a programmer, but you can't hire a programmer who knows nothing, and then entrust them to not ruin your company, destroy your data, etc.
morugin 9y ago
I've wondered how it would be to train someone using an apprenticeship model. I read some posts here by people who took a pay cut to become bootcamp instructors (for a season or two). A lot of them mentioned the satisfaction they got by being able to create real value in someone's life... I guess only a certain demographic of people would even want to do an apprenticeship. Only apprenticeship programs I've heard of are for lower wage jobs. So, poor people may benefit from an apprenticeship. Mid-career changers might also benefit. CS degrees would be overqualified. It would require significant time and effort. Not possible without company support. Still, to take a mind that can't see what we see to one that can and the amount of value created as a result, might be worth it.