7 ms·

I can do embedded, but also do other programming and programming related jobs. Thing I've found with embedded, is the pay is generally not as good as other wor

by new299 9y ago

I can do embedded, but also do other programming and programming related jobs. Thing I've found with embedded, is the pay is generally not as good as other work, and it's generally not as flexible (no remote). If you can do either generic webdev, or other things, those often look like better options.

Melanie_ 9y ago
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dbcurtis 9y ago
The remote part is hard because typically for embedded work you need at least a minimal EE workbench. Yes, the pay isn't as good for some reason -- which is odd given how hard it is to find good embedded people. Perhaps embedded developers as a group are poor negotiators. Personally, I couldn't stand doing generic webdev -- I'd rather spend eight hours a day poking myself in the eye with a sharp stick. I've always lived on the EE/software boundary. I suppose staring at logic analyzer traces is some other person's sharp stick, but it works for me.
- ryandrake 9y ago
  Yea, a lot of the embedded guys I know (myself included) moved up the stack a little to iOS/Android because that's where the $$$ went.
  - rhodysurf 9y ago
    And tbh Android/iOS is soooo much easier (read: less stressful to debug) than embedded
    - occultist_throw 9y ago
      Alas.. that it is. I much prefer lower level programming, preferably programming the hardware I designed. I know the hardware limitations, side effects, and overall the how-to behind the hardware that allows the software to do its thing. Most software engineers I know have no want to understand the underlying mechanics (they're certainly capable of it - they just don't care). I'm currently trapped in a "devops full stack" with much of the tooling as NIH. My routine day is a mix of keeping the trains rolling on time, and getting horrid stuff like " my $database_root_password = <password> " out of SVN... I keep applying to positions in my wider local area (Midwest). But so far, only headhunters that want to waste my time with endless "pre-interviews". Tomorrow, it's back to tickets, high-ho!
- rtx 9y ago
  Also due to margins. Generally hardware has lower margin than software.
- TheCowboy 9y ago
  I'm just wondering if you offered salaries better than what webdev offers as an alternative?
- comstock 9y ago
  I'd guess most people willing to do embedded dev remote would have their own workbench. It doesn't really cost that much and I wouldn't see it as a limiting factor. But it's kind of moot because the work isn't really available. That's great that you'd rather poke yourself in the eye with a sharp stick than do web dev. But I have skilled embedded dev friends writing php because the alternative is working at a supermarket (they're not location flexible).
  - foobarian 9y ago
    At the risk of going offtopic a bit, do you guys have some advice on where to start with a basic home EE workbench? I've been playing with simple Arduino circuits/servos/simple control and would like to improve my workflow a bit to make it more efficient. Some things I have: - soldering iron and supplies - "helping hands" - misc parts/supplies like wire, breadboards, switches, LEDs etc. - batteries, USB chargers, couple of PC power supplies for power supply - using a simple 2x1 .1 inch header convention with red and black wires for plugging in DC power Desk is a basic folding table from Staples. I would like to figure out where to find a better table/desk (I assume with outlets/etc.) and what other things I don't know about you'd recommend.
    - RobertDeNiro 9y ago
      You'll definitely need an oscilloscope + logic analyzer. Also a decent DC power supply. Check eevlog for cheap options.
      - tonyarkles 9y ago
        Having been in this exact role (turn a prototype into a product as a contractor), I have no end of love for my R&S entry level MSO. 2 channels analog, 8 channels digital, and it's just a pleasure to use compared to the cheaper scopes. I had originally ordered a Rigol, but my supplier couldn't get any units for 6-8 weeks (backorder) and they had the R&S in stock. It cost 2-3x as much, but... time crunch. Couldn't be happier!
    - kogepathic 9y ago
- nostrademons 9y ago
  I'd bet that the reason web/mobile dev pays much better than embedded is that there are many more firms doing it. Embedded means that your company is producing a hardware electronics product, which is requires a specialized core competency that relatively few firms do. By contrast, web & mobile dev just means that your employer has some information they need to deliver to users, which describes basically all of the millions of businesses in the world. More potential employers = higher demand = higher wages, even if the supply of webdevs is bigger and becoming one requires less training. (Personally, I found the low-level hardware/OS/algorithms courses fascinating in my CS degree, but went into webdev because it paid more and gave me more career options, and then some data science because the combination of UI skills + data wrangling skills means I can actually build useful things on my own. No regrets on my career path, but if I get lucky and cash out on a startup, I think I'd love to do embedded & hardware stuff.)
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    Back in the day software engineering was a new degree in many universities, my degree was two years old when I got into the university. Until then informatics was a specialization from the EE degree at that university. Most of those EE engineers ended up doing coding work, because a tiny country like Portugal couldn't absorve so much electronics related work.
- georgemcbay 9y ago
  >> "It can be very hard to hire good embedded developers (I know, we are trying)" ... >> "Yes, the pay isn't as good for some reason" Don't these seem related to anyone? I'm not an expert on business or anything, but maybe the reason companies are having trouble finding people to work embedded jobs is they aren't willing to pay them enough? >> "Perhaps embedded developers as a group are poor negotiators." I don't know of a better negotiation tactic than just going to do something else you can also do that pays better (a lot of people I know with deep embedded skills are doing higher level mobile app work these days for exactly this reason) because the industry has some weird preconceived notion of what you are worth...? "Fuck you, pay me".
- groby_b 9y ago
  No, companies making things needing embedded stuff are usually trying to shave off pennies wherever they can. Which means the good embedded devs take jobs elsewhere that actually pay. Yeah, I miss having a scope on my desk. But my pay is nice enough that I can afford my own EE workbench at home, should I want one.
- chocolatebunny 9y ago
  I think the pay isn't as good because the profit margins aren't as good as "the cloud" so there isn't as much money available for engineers. And because the slower pace of development makes it seem like you accomplish less per year. My biggest problem with web development is the users. I've made a few internal websites to manage some our stuff at work, which only has to deal with a small number of users (100 or so) who are all technologically competent engineers, and I still find it ass annoying, dealing with all the weird ways they use my very simple webpages. Sure hardware can have its quirks but they're not like people.
- Kliment 9y ago
  Remote is the only way as far as I'm concerned - I have a lot more and better equipment than anything my customers have in-house, and my main line of business is helping customers who have an idea and want to turn it into a prototype, but have little or no in-house electronics knowledge. And I agree with you that webdev is a cancer of high-speed growth and change with from what I can tell very little benefit of framework-of-the-week compared to framework-of-last week. Maybe it will stabilize one day.
  - mindentropy 9y ago
    I too have a decent lab at home and would like to get into similar work as you. Would you mind if you can elaborate on how you get business? From what I have seen most of the customers would like to give their business to their trusted partners and vendors for firmware work and getting in is very tough.
    - Kliment 9y ago
      It is extremely difficult. My main sources are word of mouth references and followup projects from existing customers. My 3d printing tool related activity has also brought me some business, and I use my electronics workshops as a marketing tool as well. Still, I have quite a lot of difficulty getting projects, largely because the intersection of (has money to pay external development) (knows what they actually want) and (too small to have inhouse expertise) is fairly small. Where are you based?
      - mindentropy 9y ago
        I am based out of India. Here quite a lot of projects going into big service/outsourcing companies for some reason. Many of the projects fail but I have seen their customers still send their projects there. The pattern that I see nowadays is that most of the embedded companies prefer to have a vendor who has compliances and processes however stupid they maybe or whether they really follow it or not. It is as they say just to cover their behind. Another lead that I see is Chinese SoC manufacturers who would like to have Linux/Android up. I see a lot of the produce their hardware but have very little support software. The problem is I do not have any idea how to approach them let alone convince them to spend money on development. The big companies medical and automotive) in Germany generally give work to their vendors but again they give it to the German companies and very rarely to outsiders. The contracts are very lucrative as I have seen just 1 person companies there providing very average embedded software components. Again very hard to crack the market unless you know someone there.
RobertDeNiro 9y ago
Yeah, I'm an embedded engineer and honestly the pay isn't that good and the job opportunities just aren't there. I'm seriously thinking of switching over to backend web development.
- christophilus 9y ago
  It's what I did a long time ago. Well-- before the web, it was Windows system/application development. But yeah. In university, I enjoyed compiler design, embedded work and video-game development much more than anything else. Turns out the demand for compiler writers is tiny. The pay for embedded developers is sub-par, and the game industry is just awful. So boring business apps it was. Turns out to have been a decent career. In the end, programming is programming, and I have enjoyed most of it. There are always problems to be solved.
coryrc 9y ago
I'm in the same place. I have better equipment than some of the companies I have worked for, so I wish remote positions were available. I'm even open to burst-y work, so maybe I should be a consultant. But I'll probably go the web-dev route too.
wiremine 9y ago
> Thing I've found with embedded, is the pay is generally not as good as other work And the tooling is WAY behind where cloud and mobile is at.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
fma 9y ago
Yep...it's been like that for a while. Undergrad in computer hardware engineering, masters in EE. Done plenty of embedded work in school and internships and thoroughly enjoyed it. Web dev/backend dev for the last 10 years. I often wonder who, in the long run, would be the ones to push the boundaries when you can get a very good pay doing some generic software engineering job (similarly I have friends go several years into a STEM phd to drop and go into CS masters program)

by new299 9y ago

Melanie_ 9y ago

Im making over $7k a month working part time. I kept hearing other people tell me how much money they can make online so I decided to look into it. Well, it was all true and has totally changed my life. This is what I do, ========http://www.smartfinancemedia.com/?682 http://www.smartfinancemedia.com/?682

dbcurtis 9y ago

The remote part is hard because typically for embedded work you need at least a minimal EE workbench. Yes, the pay isn't as good for some reason -- which is odd given how hard it is to find good embedded people. Perhaps embedded developers as a group are poor negotiators. Personally, I couldn't stand doing generic webdev -- I'd rather spend eight hours a day poking myself in the eye with a sharp stick. I've always lived on the EE/software boundary. I suppose staring at logic analyzer traces is some other person's sharp stick, but it works for me.

ryandrake 9y ago
Yea, a lot of the embedded guys I know (myself included) moved up the stack a little to iOS/Android because that's where the $$$ went.
- rhodysurf 9y ago
  And tbh Android/iOS is soooo much easier (read: less stressful to debug) than embedded
  - occultist_throw 9y ago
    Alas.. that it is. I much prefer lower level programming, preferably programming the hardware I designed. I know the hardware limitations, side effects, and overall the how-to behind the hardware that allows the software to do its thing. Most software engineers I know have no want to understand the underlying mechanics (they're certainly capable of it - they just don't care). I'm currently trapped in a "devops full stack" with much of the tooling as NIH. My routine day is a mix of keeping the trains rolling on time, and getting horrid stuff like " my $database_root_password = <password> " out of SVN... I keep applying to positions in my wider local area (Midwest). But so far, only headhunters that want to waste my time with endless "pre-interviews". Tomorrow, it's back to tickets, high-ho!
rtx 9y ago
Also due to margins. Generally hardware has lower margin than software.
TheCowboy 9y ago
I'm just wondering if you offered salaries better than what webdev offers as an alternative?
comstock 9y ago
I'd guess most people willing to do embedded dev remote would have their own workbench. It doesn't really cost that much and I wouldn't see it as a limiting factor. But it's kind of moot because the work isn't really available. That's great that you'd rather poke yourself in the eye with a sharp stick than do web dev. But I have skilled embedded dev friends writing php because the alternative is working at a supermarket (they're not location flexible).
- foobarian 9y ago
  At the risk of going offtopic a bit, do you guys have some advice on where to start with a basic home EE workbench? I've been playing with simple Arduino circuits/servos/simple control and would like to improve my workflow a bit to make it more efficient. Some things I have: - soldering iron and supplies - "helping hands" - misc parts/supplies like wire, breadboards, switches, LEDs etc. - batteries, USB chargers, couple of PC power supplies for power supply - using a simple 2x1 .1 inch header convention with red and black wires for plugging in DC power Desk is a basic folding table from Staples. I would like to figure out where to find a better table/desk (I assume with outlets/etc.) and what other things I don't know about you'd recommend.
  - RobertDeNiro 9y ago
    You'll definitely need an oscilloscope + logic analyzer. Also a decent DC power supply. Check eevlog for cheap options.
    - tonyarkles 9y ago
      Having been in this exact role (turn a prototype into a product as a contractor), I have no end of love for my R&S entry level MSO. 2 channels analog, 8 channels digital, and it's just a pleasure to use compared to the cheaper scopes. I had originally ordered a Rigol, but my supplier couldn't get any units for 6-8 weeks (backorder) and they had the R&S in stock. It cost 2-3x as much, but... time crunch. Couldn't be happier!
  - kogepathic 9y ago
nostrademons 9y ago
I'd bet that the reason web/mobile dev pays much better than embedded is that there are many more firms doing it. Embedded means that your company is producing a hardware electronics product, which is requires a specialized core competency that relatively few firms do. By contrast, web & mobile dev just means that your employer has some information they need to deliver to users, which describes basically all of the millions of businesses in the world. More potential employers = higher demand = higher wages, even if the supply of webdevs is bigger and becoming one requires less training. (Personally, I found the low-level hardware/OS/algorithms courses fascinating in my CS degree, but went into webdev because it paid more and gave me more career options, and then some data science because the combination of UI skills + data wrangling skills means I can actually build useful things on my own. No regrets on my career path, but if I get lucky and cash out on a startup, I think I'd love to do embedded & hardware stuff.)
- pjmlp 9y ago
  Back in the day software engineering was a new degree in many universities, my degree was two years old when I got into the university. Until then informatics was a specialization from the EE degree at that university. Most of those EE engineers ended up doing coding work, because a tiny country like Portugal couldn't absorve so much electronics related work.
georgemcbay 9y ago
>> "It can be very hard to hire good embedded developers (I know, we are trying)" ... >> "Yes, the pay isn't as good for some reason" Don't these seem related to anyone? I'm not an expert on business or anything, but maybe the reason companies are having trouble finding people to work embedded jobs is they aren't willing to pay them enough? >> "Perhaps embedded developers as a group are poor negotiators." I don't know of a better negotiation tactic than just going to do something else you can also do that pays better (a lot of people I know with deep embedded skills are doing higher level mobile app work these days for exactly this reason) because the industry has some weird preconceived notion of what you are worth...? "Fuck you, pay me".
groby_b 9y ago
No, companies making things needing embedded stuff are usually trying to shave off pennies wherever they can. Which means the good embedded devs take jobs elsewhere that actually pay. Yeah, I miss having a scope on my desk. But my pay is nice enough that I can afford my own EE workbench at home, should I want one.
chocolatebunny 9y ago
I think the pay isn't as good because the profit margins aren't as good as "the cloud" so there isn't as much money available for engineers. And because the slower pace of development makes it seem like you accomplish less per year. My biggest problem with web development is the users. I've made a few internal websites to manage some our stuff at work, which only has to deal with a small number of users (100 or so) who are all technologically competent engineers, and I still find it ass annoying, dealing with all the weird ways they use my very simple webpages. Sure hardware can have its quirks but they're not like people.
Kliment 9y ago
Remote is the only way as far as I'm concerned - I have a lot more and better equipment than anything my customers have in-house, and my main line of business is helping customers who have an idea and want to turn it into a prototype, but have little or no in-house electronics knowledge. And I agree with you that webdev is a cancer of high-speed growth and change with from what I can tell very little benefit of framework-of-the-week compared to framework-of-last week. Maybe it will stabilize one day.
- mindentropy 9y ago
  I too have a decent lab at home and would like to get into similar work as you. Would you mind if you can elaborate on how you get business? From what I have seen most of the customers would like to give their business to their trusted partners and vendors for firmware work and getting in is very tough.
  - Kliment 9y ago
    It is extremely difficult. My main sources are word of mouth references and followup projects from existing customers. My 3d printing tool related activity has also brought me some business, and I use my electronics workshops as a marketing tool as well. Still, I have quite a lot of difficulty getting projects, largely because the intersection of (has money to pay external development) (knows what they actually want) and (too small to have inhouse expertise) is fairly small. Where are you based?
    - mindentropy 9y ago
      I am based out of India. Here quite a lot of projects going into big service/outsourcing companies for some reason. Many of the projects fail but I have seen their customers still send their projects there. The pattern that I see nowadays is that most of the embedded companies prefer to have a vendor who has compliances and processes however stupid they maybe or whether they really follow it or not. It is as they say just to cover their behind. Another lead that I see is Chinese SoC manufacturers who would like to have Linux/Android up. I see a lot of the produce their hardware but have very little support software. The problem is I do not have any idea how to approach them let alone convince them to spend money on development. The big companies medical and automotive) in Germany generally give work to their vendors but again they give it to the German companies and very rarely to outsiders. The contracts are very lucrative as I have seen just 1 person companies there providing very average embedded software components. Again very hard to crack the market unless you know someone there.

RobertDeNiro 9y ago

Yeah, I'm an embedded engineer and honestly the pay isn't that good and the job opportunities just aren't there. I'm seriously thinking of switching over to backend web development.

christophilus 9y ago
It's what I did a long time ago. Well-- before the web, it was Windows system/application development. But yeah. In university, I enjoyed compiler design, embedded work and video-game development much more than anything else. Turns out the demand for compiler writers is tiny. The pay for embedded developers is sub-par, and the game industry is just awful. So boring business apps it was. Turns out to have been a decent career. In the end, programming is programming, and I have enjoyed most of it. There are always problems to be solved.

coryrc 9y ago

I'm in the same place. I have better equipment than some of the companies I have worked for, so I wish remote positions were available. I'm even open to burst-y work, so maybe I should be a consultant. But I'll probably go the web-dev route too.

wiremine 9y ago

> Thing I've found with embedded, is the pay is generally not as good as other work And the tooling is WAY behind where cloud and mobile is at.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

fma 9y ago

Yep...it's been like that for a while. Undergrad in computer hardware engineering, masters in EE. Done plenty of embedded work in school and internships and thoroughly enjoyed it. Web dev/backend dev for the last 10 years. I often wonder who, in the long run, would be the ones to push the boundaries when you can get a very good pay doing some generic software engineering job (similarly I have friends go several years into a STEM phd to drop and go into CS masters program)